Tantra, daoism and sahaja

[darkdao0013]

I am new to spiritual practice, I read few books about buddhist tantra, hindu tantra, daoism and I found some similarity in practices. From my point of view hindu tantra is very disciplined and ritual based, buddhist tantra is almost same but more mysterious and both of them emphasize on supernatural powers comes with the practices although in both practices say those powers are not the true outcome of the practice but side effects, true outcome is liberation. Daoist practices are seems more subtle to me but there are similarities, both tantra and Daoism emphasizes on inner practices, self awareness, self acceptence  rather than outer rituals and dogma.Three granthis of yoga-three dantian of daoism, kriya yoga-microcosmic orbit seems cut from the same cloth. But after reading texts of an unpopular doctrain of buddhaism known as sahaja buddhaism(charyapada,dohakosh, doha of Saraha, ganges mahamudra of Tilopa ) I felt I am reading the teachings of Dao de jing and zhang ji especially zuang ji.

[Mudfoot]

The same body, the same lotus position, the same breathing exercises, the same strive for emptiness. 

 

No wonder there are similarities. 

[Apech]

On 1/28/2019 at 4:54 PM, darkdao0013 said:

I am new to spiritual practice, I read few books about buddhist tantra, hindu tantra, daoism and I found some similarity in practices. From my point of view hindu tantra is very disciplined and ritual based, buddhist tantra is almost same but more mysterious and both of them emphasize on supernatural powers comes with the practices although in both practices say those powers are not the true outcome of the practice but side effects, true outcome is liberation. Daoist practices are seems more subtle to me but there are similarities, both tantra and Daoism emphasizes on inner practices, self awareness, self acceptence  rather than outer rituals and dogma.Three granthis of yoga-three dantian of daoism, kriya yoga-microcosmic orbit seems cut from the same cloth. But after reading texts of an unpopular doctrain of buddhaism known as sahaja buddhaism(charyapada,dohakosh, doha of Saraha, ganges mahamudra of Tilopa ) I felt I am reading the teachings of Dao de jing and zhang ji especially zuang ji.

 

Hi,

 

There is some evidence that although tantra developed in India, Daoist practices may have influenced it in some ways.  The key differences between Buddha-tantra and Hindu-tantra is the way in which the deities are understood - i.e. real entities or emanations of Mind.  The Buddhist Mahasiddhas such as Saraha and Tilopa practice both tantra and mahamudra - and the doha songs are inspiring.

 

When speaking about the fundamental nature of reality in any culture there will be similarities - but the paths lay things out differently and I think it is important to put whatever image or idea in the context of the broader path.

 

Just my thoughts of course.

[Mudfoot]

58 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

Hi,

 

There is some evidence that although tantra developed in India, Daoist practices may have influenced it in some ways.   

If I didn't write this from my Phone, I could post a link stating that daoist practices are influenced by tantric traditions. 

 

I guess that depends on which tradition you want to be oldest. 

 

[Apech]

6 minutes ago, Mudfoot said:

If I didn't write this from my Phone, I could post a link stating that daoist practices are influenced by tantric traditions. 

 

I guess that depends on which tradition you want to be oldest. 

 

 

 

This book is very good

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Origins-Yoga-Tantra-Religions-Thirteenth/dp/0521695341/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1550412905&sr=8-1&keywords=the+origins+of+yoga+and+tantra

 

though a bit academic and dry for some.

 

 

[Miroku]

There are some academic theories that Tibetan trulkhor is the source of Indian yoga and not the other way around as was assumed. Partially based on the fact that Tibetan texts are so much older than the Indian ones and other examples. It is very interesting how much influence there probably was during the centuries. Zen seems to be quite influenced either by daoism or by esoteric buddhist teachings and etc. However, as fun as it may be it is better to study them separately. The whole idea that all roads lead to one finish line can do often more harm than good.

[Mudfoot]

1 hour ago, Apech said:

 

 

This book is very good

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Origins-Yoga-Tantra-Religions-Thirteenth/dp/0521695341/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1550412905&sr=8-1&keywords=the+origins+of+yoga+and+tantra

 

though a bit academic and dry for some.

 

 

Thanks. 

Ordered it. I'm a sucker for "academic and dry". 

[voidisyinyang]

1 hour ago, Miroku said:

There are some academic theories that Tibetan trulkhor is the source of Indian yoga and not the other way around as was assumed. Partially based on the fact that Tibetan texts are so much older than the Indian ones and other examples. It is very interesting how much influence there probably was during the centuries. Zen seems to be quite influenced either by daoism or by esoteric buddhist teachings and etc. However, as fun as it may be it is better to study them separately. The whole idea that all roads lead to one finish line can do often more harm than good.

actually all modern humans are from the San Bushmen culture - they do the same spiritual training as Daoism or Buddhism. So the SAn Bushmen culture spread around the world and this is documented through the music. In India the oldest philosophy is the "three gunas" and it's from music theory - same with Daoism - it's from music theory.

[voidisyinyang]

On 1/28/2019 at 10:54 AM, darkdao0013 said:

Three granthis of yoga-three dantian of daoism, kriya yoga-microcosmic orbit seems cut from the same cloth.

https://www.pdf-archive.com/2018/03/17/ancient-advanced-acoustic-alchemy/

See that link for images of how Kriya Yoga and MCO (small universe) have the same origins - also in West Asia - the Pythagorean circulation of energy - tied to Egypt as well.

[voidisyinyang]

1 hour ago, Mudfoot said:

Thanks. 

Ordered it. I'm a sucker for "academic and dry". 

https://archive.org/stream/TheOriginsOfYogaAndTantraGeoffreySamuel/The Origins of Yoga and Tantra - Geoffrey Samuel_djvu.txt

 

There's the book full text archived.

 

[Mudfoot]

Typically! 

Never mind, nothing is like holding a book, making notes. 

[voidisyinyang]

26 minutes ago, Mudfoot said:

Typically! 

Never mind, nothing is like holding a book, making notes. 

especially if you sit in full lotus while doing it - or you can sit in full lotus at the computer.

[Mudfoot]

15 minutes ago, voidisyinyang said:

especially if you sit in full lotus while doing it - or you can sit in full lotus at the computer.

That would be half lotus for me, full lotus stopped to be an option after I quit practicing taijiquan. 

Snake creeps down was really useful in this regard. 

[Old Student]

Hi, not sure this topic is still alive.

On 2/17/2019 at 6:56 AM, Miroku said:

There are some academic theories that Tibetan trulkhor is the source of Indian yoga and not the other way around as was assumed.

The evidence is for Hatha yoga, which kicked off what we think of as yoga nowadays, positions, kriya, etc.  Their earliest mention is in the Kalachakra texts, which date from early to mid 11th century.  Since Naropa is in the transmission line of those texts, there is a good reason to suspect that the Six Yogas of Naropa, and the corresponding Six Yogas of Niguma are near the origin point.  Naropa was at Nalanda, Niguma at Sosaling, but they were from Kashmir and some texts state they were older sister younger brother.

The jump to Hindu traditions comes with the Nath tradition after the fall of the Pala dynasty to the Hindu Senas.  The source for that latter is Bhattacharya, The History of Chittagong, which can be accessed on Scribd, but is otherwise expensive and out of print.

 

As for passage between Buddhism and Daoism, it went on beginning in the Tang dynasty.  Both were responsible for medicine in their respective cultures, and so traded information about techniques that worked. People are well aware that Daoists did medicine, but Buddhists have a tradition going back to the Pillars of Ashoka, which advertised that the Mauryan's new religion had lots of powerful medicine to be had.