"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results." ..

[Spotless]

On 1/29/2019 at 8:18 AM, dwai said:

The way I look at is as follows --

In the spiritual path, there are two aspects. One is that of the "deep, ground shaking opening" - The Direct experiential aspect. The other is the theoretical framework which includes study, contemplation and meditation. This stabilizes the realization that we get from the Direct experience

The tendency is to think that this stabilization is in continued practice long established - it is more like the following:

 

In medditstion you have learned to watch the clouds - and now in release you have practice in not re-attaching and re-grasping that which has fallen away.

 

Seeking has stopped - it becomes an exquisite free fall - faint remains can be alluring hand holds - but your preparations have prepared you to Be - though in a million years the concepts would never meet the reality - it is so increasingly beyond words.

 

The strong theoretical framework is both completely destroyed and simultaneously renewed:

You now understand that you know nothing - and you do not seek knowing - it reveals itself to Self in each moment - and it is gone as it arrives - no lock and load - no storage - no ace in the hole.

 

Contemplation is absorbed into revelation, immense gratitude and bottomless devotion, patience and compassion - suffering ended in a puff. No-thought is Divine Presence.

 

It is all light - 

 

 

[freeform]

22 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

wanting others to see us in a positive light.  It`s a tendency I recognize first and foremost in myself.

 

The fact that you realise this sets you apart already.

 

22 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

One of my psycho-spiritual goals is to decouple my sense of worth as a person from my outward accomplishments

 

This, however, I’d like to challenge you on.

 

I think this is a truly unhealthy thing to strive for.

 

Let me explain why.

 

The world we live in will always tend to ‘reward’ you for your skilful means. The less skill, ability, ‘accomplishment’ that you bring to the world, the more likely you are to live a pretty lowly existence. In this world, it is very healthy to strive for growth and improvement.

 

Yes, there can be this sense of urgency, even a bit of anxiety that goes along with this. But far worse feelings await those that waste away the precious life that they’ve got.

 

Think about the kind of people who’re very proud of themselves, but achieved nothing of worth in their life... Do you know such people? Do you want to be such a person?

 

I understand that there’s this sense that ‘if only I can accept myself fully, just as I am - then I’ll be happy and content and at peace’ etc. It’s a very popular notion in the newage literature. But if you ever meet anyone who’s truly content and at peace, you’ll see that this is just the tip of the iceberg - the rest is continuous, hard work on self-development.

 

There is a good reason that this drive is part of our nature. Yes, it’s true that striving for recognition from people, when it’s decoupled from developing actual skill, worldly accomplishment and personal growth is pathological.

 

But the people that get the most well-deserved respect and recognition (in general) tend to be people that achieve impressive things, develop amazing skills and abilities and have many wonderful accomplishments.

 

Spirituality has nothing to do with high or low self-esteem. But it’s practically impossible to develop spiritually if you’re super happy with yourself without having achieved or given the world anything valuable.

 

My suggestion is not to succumb to such ideas but work hard on really doing something with your life. Compare your accomplishments not to others’, but to your own yesterday.

Edited February 1, 2019 by freeform

[Stosh]

12 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

The fact that you realise this sets you apart already.

 

 

This, however, I’d like to challenge you on.

 

I think this is a truly unhealthy thing to strive for.

 

Let me explain why.

 

The world we live in will always tend to ‘reward’ you for your skilful means. The less skill, ability, ‘accomplishment’ that you bring to the world, the more likely you are to live a pretty lowly existence. In this world, it is very healthy to strive for growth and improvement.

Much of what comes to us is a matter of luck - nobody asks to be born with cancer. etc

12 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

Yes there can be this sense of urgency, even a bit of anxiety that goes along with this. But far worse feelings await those that waste away the precious life that they’ve got.

This requires waste to be defined and I believe this is speculative 

12 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

Think about the kind of people who’re very proud of themselves, but achieved nothing of worth in their life... Do you know such people? Do you want to be such a person?

Same thing - but their pride is dependent on things outside their control 

12 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

I understand that there’s this sense that ‘if only I can accept myself fully, just as I am - then I’ll be happy and content and at peace’ etc. It’s a very popular notion in the newage literature. But if you ever meet anyone who’s truly content and at peace, you’ll see that this is just the tip of the iceberg - the rest is continuous, hard work on self development.

Would one prefer the bulk of their life to be satisfying or just the tip? 

 

12 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

There is a good reason that this drive is part of our nature. Yes it’s true that striving for recognition from people, when it’s decoupled from developing actual skill, worldly accomplishment and personal growth is pathological.

Define this pathology  because heart attacks and so forth are pathological and proven as connected to stress levels 

 

12 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

But the people that get the most well deserved respect and recognition (in general) tend to be people that achieve impressive things, develop amazing skills and abilities and have many wonderful accomplishments.

its possible you're impressed by crap you've been told is the  good stuff. 

12 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

Spirituality has nothing to do with high or low self esteem. But it’s practically impossible to develop spiritually if you’re super happy with yourself without having achieved or world at anything.

Youve done pretty good if you made it there and chasing further 'spirituality'  would be counterproductive

 

12 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

My suggestion is not to succumb to such ideas, but work hard on really doing something with your life. Compare your accomplishments not to others’, but to your own yesterday.

He doesn't have any need to compare, and find himself at fault  at all , since others will supply that. 

 

Just IMO ( this post is so conventionally wrong that I was motivated to jump in ) 

[freeform]

34 minutes ago, Stosh said:

Just IMO ( this post is so conventionally wrong that I was motivated to jump in )

 

Actually I think it’s unconventional. Most of what you hear these days is regurgitated feel-good, newage self deception. 

 

And also you haven’t actually started your opinion constructively - you’ve just ‘reacted’.

 

 

[Stosh]

1 hour ago, freeform said:

 

Actually I think it’s unconventional. Most of what you hear these days is regurgitated feel-good, newage self deception. 

 

And also you haven’t actually started your opinion constructively - you’ve just ‘reacted’.

 

 

Gotta burn before you replant. Yes, The Daoist opinions have been incorporated in the new age trend , but that doesn't mean that the trend got it right , or that the trend prevails in today's society. It doesnt...

But I dont know how I could Prove that the opinions you expressed are the conventional ones in any clearly unbiased fashion. 

Edited February 1, 2019 by Stosh

[wandelaar]

Discussions about Taoism can be useful when:

 

1. They force you to reconsider something you thought was obvious.

2. They force you to clearly state your position on some point.

3. They prove that that there is some error in you current opinion.

4. They point you to some literature or links that provide interesting information.

5. They lead to suggestions about Taoism in daily life.

6. They show you that it is possible to keep one's cool when discussing controversial subjects.

[freeform]

25 minutes ago, Stosh said:

Gotta burn before you replant.

 

Fair enough.

 

I'm not dismissing your opinion - I just think it's wrong.

 

I'd happily go through and explain exactly why I think your statements are wrong, but I actually think you've probably got something a bit more valuable to share than just the rushed emotional reaction you posted.

 

These forums are great because they force you to clearly articulate what you think (as wandelaar mentioned) - it's good for everyone involved.

[Stosh]

30 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

Fair enough.

 

I'm not dismissing your opinion - I just think it's wrong.

 

I'd happily go through and explain exactly why I think your statements are wrong, but I actually think you've probably got something a bit more valuable to share than just the rushed emotional reaction you posted.

 

These forums are great because they force you to clearly articulate what you think (as wandelaar mentioned) - it's good for everyone involved.

Like anyone else I do act on gut reactions first , but there is strategy to it as well. It tests whether a person is really interested in getting to the bottom of an issue, if they are, they will have some patience. Most of the time I do not blurt out in a first post all the thoughts I have on a matter , nor all the points where I would be in agreement but do weigh differently. That's too rushed. anyway..

I do not believe ..The idea to drive surpass exceed , weigh and judge critically is the message of the classics. Not everyone is capable of being the best brightest strongest by circumstance or personal trait. Chuang would rather 'drag his tail in the mud' for instance.

But what often gets bypassed, is that conventional ideas are held, because they have a sort of merit as well. There is no sin in being conventional , nor unconventional , "The sun shines equally on the wicked and the just ,  the Dao laughs at us anyway" . 

Pushing people to strive is only good for them if they can indeed prevail and while they strive they also get rewards. Because the moment of getting to the top of the hill , only lasts briefly ,, then there is the next hill. A life may get spent in pursuit of some thing imagined to be satisfying which isn't really. Or they may hate themselves for failures they were never really destined to overcome. 

Of the life missions one might self- assign , I would rather be the guy who takes the pressure Off my fellow humans , than to lay it on still more thickly. That's just me , its not because I feel I can change the world , or usher in a new paradise. 

Most of my fellow bums would also prefer to be the guys and gals ,who make life just a bit softer,  whether or not we are to the ones recognized to have done so. 

 

 

 

Edited February 1, 2019 by Stosh

[freeform]

Much better - now we can have an actual discussion, Stosh.

 

I think the classics didn't over-emphasise this aspect of life because life was hard - if you didn't work hard, take responsibility and achieve things in life you and your family would quickly perish. It's kind of a given that any meaningful achievement requires Gong - dedicated, long-term practice.

 

Every single high-level master that I've met has been very accomplished in several aspects of life. Several were wealthy and had successful businesses. Others had incredibly productive gardens on very poor land. Some were great linguists, musicians etc...

 

Now, I used to do quite a bit of psychological counselling. I visited prisons, half-way houses, hospices, rehabs etc... So I'm quite familiar with 'pathology'. I've met many different characters doing this (even got stabbed with an infected needle once.)

 

The people that didn't take self-worth from their accomplishments were generally 'drop-outs' from society... ranging from the perfectly happy stoner that's bleeding his parents dry, to the many men who thought of themselves as victims of society but also enjoyed drinking and beating their partners. The scariest people were the ones that actually did manage to "decouple their sense of worth from other people's perception" - namely psychopaths.

 

What I'm saying is not that there's a certain 'objective' bar that you need to reach to be a worthwhile person... "you need to be a doctor and earn lots of $$ to be a worthwhile human" - that is not what I'm saying.

 

What I am saying is that you must take responsibility for setting your own bar - then surpassing it, then setting the bar higher, then surpassing it, then higher and surpassing it.

 

The real value comes from this engagement with life. Not necessarily from the results of your endeavours (let's face it - most endeavours end up failing).

 

There's a certain level of self-esteem that develops as a result of taking this responsibility.

 

Some of the most amazing people I met were recovered addicts for example. That takes masses of dedication and hard work in the face of extreme forces constantly pulling you off your path.

 

Of course, we all have certain limiting factors. People are born with different levels of intellect... we have different bodies and different brain chemistry for example... And that seems unfair. But it's the truth.

 

The aim is not to 'reach the top', but to do better than you did yesterday.

 

So you've got some debilitating disease... is it better to face that fact and do what you're able to? Or is it better to take on the victim role and hope for charity?

 

I'm reminded of an elderly lady in a hospice. She was in the final stages of her cancer. It had reached her bones and she was in intense pain. The nurses would constantly try to put her on a morphine drip - but she would always refuse. She wanted to be awake and lucid for her visitors. And she certainly was.

 

Life is hard. Life is not about being happy or joyous... It's about being fully engaged in it.

[Stosh]

26 minutes ago, freeform said:

Much better - now we can have an actual discussion, Stosh.

 

I think the classics didn't over-emphasise this aspect of life because life was hard - if you didn't work hard, take responsibility and achieve things in life you and your family would quickly perish. It's kind of a given that any meaningful achievement requires Gong - dedicated, long-term practice.

Like what suggests to you they were pushing the public to bust-a-hump? _ dont be patronizing though , it pisses me off and I will bite back 

 

 

 

26 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

Every single high-level master that I've met has been very accomplished in several aspects of life. Several were wealthy and had successful businesses. Others had incredibly productive gardens on very poor land. Some were great linguists, musicians etc...

I might not consider these people high level anythings , and you are still thinking you can tell the value of these people by conventional standards. 

26 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

Now, I used to do quite a bit of psychological counselling. I visited prisons, half-way houses, hospices, rehabs etc... So I'm quite familiar with 'pathology'. I've met many different characters doing this (even got stabbed with an infected needle once.)

 

The people that didn't take self-worth from their accomplishments were generally 'drop-outs' from society... ranging from the perfectly happy stoner that's bleeding his parents dry, to the many men who thought of themselves as victims of society but also enjoyed drinking and beating their partners. The scariest people were the ones that actually did manage to "decouple their sense of worth from other people's perception" - namely psychopaths.

Even psychos have a right to live well. But besides that , your expertise is in what one might call the maladapted. This doesnt disqualify your point , but the majority of these are still people who have been inundated with the same basic messages everyone else has, yet society still has these persons in abundance. To me , the undeniable implication is,  that the society who is producing these individuals is not entirely successful with the paradigms its using. And it may be that equally , the inverse of those paradigms ,may not fit for all individuals. 

 

26 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

What I'm saying is not that there's a certain 'objective' bar that you need to reach to be a worthwhile person... "you need to be a doctor and earn lots of $$ to be a worthwhile human" - that is not what I'm saying.

 

What I am saying is that you must take responsibility for setting your own bar -

Ok.....

26 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

 

then surpassing it, then setting the bar higher, then surpassing it, then higher and surpassing it.

oops !  just a tad into the realm of pushing again . 

 

26 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

The real value comes from this engagement with life. Not necessarily from the results of your endeavours (let's face it - most endeavours end up failing).

Oooooh , good point, where we can agree entirely  

 

 

26 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

There's a certain level of self-esteem that develops as a result of taking this responsibility.

 

Some of the most amazing people I met were recovered addicts for example. That takes masses of dedication and hard work in the face of extreme forces constantly pulling you off your path.

 

Of course, we all have certain limiting factors. People are born with different levels of intellect... we have different bodies and different brain chemistry for example... And that seems unfair. But it's the truth.

Fine ... 

26 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

The aim is not to 'reach the top', but to do better than you did yesterday.

Oops pushing again...

 

26 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

So you've got some debilitating disease... is it better to face that fact and do what you're able to? Or is it better to take on the victim role and hope for charity?

For some thats an acceptable role. 

 

26 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

I'm reminded of an elderly lady in a hospice. She was in the final stages of her cancer. It had reached her bones and she was in intense pain. The nurses would constantly try to put her on a morphine drip - but she would always refuse. She wanted to be awake and lucid for her visitors. And she certainly was.

Ok 

26 minutes ago, freeform said:

Life is hard. Life is not about being happy or joyous... It's about being fully engaged in it.

Life may be hard or easy , and you may be fully engaged in it either way. You have some control over that , and some of that control is vested in your attitudes about what you expect for yourself, and the way you judge the world . True, some things in life are hard , very hard , but one should look good and squarely at whether they are optimizing the brief gasps of it we get. Your life is about engagement , but its not true to say that this is not a subjective stance , in and of itself. 

[freeform]

13 minutes ago, Stosh said:

Like what suggests to you they were pushing the public to bust-a-hump? _ dont be patronizing though , it pisses me off and I will bite back 

 

I don’t understand.

 

I’m not sure how it is that you got so pissed off by a pretty tame post... 

 

I’ll wait again for you to take a step back and formulate an articulate response with an actual point rather than trying to understand your reactionary dissection of my post.

[Stosh]

1 minute ago, freeform said:

 

I don’t understand.

 

I’m not sure how it is that you got so pissed off by a pretty tame post... 

 

I’ll wait again for you to take a step back and formulate an articulate response with an actual point rather than trying to understand your reactionary dissection of my post.

Your post has flaws , I articulated my response in the formula I chose , and I wasnt pissed off at the post overall ,

I dont know where you got that idea. 

This parental style thing where you " take a step back till I cool my jets" is what I meant by being patronizing.

If you worked with people of violent tendencies you should know that its a dangerous game to get smug like that

but maybe you tried that stuff from out of reach. 

[Everything]

12 hours ago, Spotless said:

The tendency is to think that this stabilization is in continued practice long established - it is more like the following:

 

In medditstion you have learned to watch the clouds - and now in release you have practice in not re-attaching and re-grasping that which has fallen away.

 

Seeking has stopped - it becomes an exquisite free fall - faint remains can be alluring hand holds - but your preparations have prepared you to Be - though in a million years the concepts would never meet the reality - it is so increasingly beyond words.

 

The strong theoretical framework is both completely destroyed and simultaneously renewed:

You now understand that you know nothing - and you do not seek knowing - it reveals itself to Self in each moment - and it is gone as it arrives - no lock and load - no storage - no ace in the hole.

 

Contemplation is absorbed into revelation, immense gratitude and bottomless devotion, patience and compassion - suffering ended in a puff. No-thought is Divine Presence.

 

It is all light - 

 

 

You just meditate to release resistant thought. So that you can have pure positive thought.

 

Let's say, someone falls, and then stands back up. So that he can walk again.

 

Let's say, someone falls, and then stands back up. And then stands back up. And then stands back up. And then stands back up. And then stands back up. And then stands back up. And then stands back up. And then stands back up. And then stands back up. And then stands back up. And then stands back up.

 

You get my point? ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

 

You stand back up, not in order to stand back up.

You meditate, in order to think pure positive thought.

 

No longer offering resistant thought, you see clearly, you feel clearly, you see joy, you feel joy, and you move along the path of least resistance, towards all that you desire evermore. Effortlessly, joyously, succesfully, evermore. Why? Because you no longer offer contradictory thought. And meditation, like standing back up, re-establishes your natural ability to focus. So that you can offer pure positive thought again, in a stable and consistent manner, just like standing back up, re-establishes your natural feel for balance so that you can walk in a stable and consistent manner, once again.

Edited February 1, 2019 by Everything

[Everything]

9 minutes ago, Stosh said:

Your post has flaws , I articulated my response in the formula I chose , and I wasnt pissed off at the post overall ,

I dont know where you got that idea. 

This parental style thing where you " take a step back till I cool my jets" is what I meant by being patronizing.

If you worked with people of violent tendencies you should know that its a dangerous game to get smug like that

but maybe you tried that stuff from out of reach. 

Actually, ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) if you eat peanutbutter in front of violent people, and share your peanutbutter with them, they will be allot less violent.

There is actually a relationship between the founder of peanutbutter and the Source of the Original Plan of Creation.

The peanut contains all that you may ever wish or desire to know. Also in terms of human interrelationspaceshippionary dynamics. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

[Everything]

25 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

I don’t understand.

 

I’m not sure how it is that you got so pissed off by a pretty tame post... 

 

I’ll wait again for you to take a step back and formulate an articulate response with an actual point rather than trying to understand your reactionary dissection of my post.

I agree. Let's walk backwards. And let's live while walking backwards, let's speak backwards, let's write backwards...

!toot toot retsim muilibomotua ruo ni sdrawkcab evird osla s'tel dnA ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) 

 

Edited February 1, 2019 by Everything

[freeform]

7 minutes ago, Stosh said:

This parental style thing where you " take a step back till I cool my jets" is what I meant by being patronizing.

 

I find emotional outbursts in online forums a bit pathetic. That’s the less patronising way of saying that. Bit impolite though.

 

10 minutes ago, Stosh said:

If you worked with people of violent tendencies you should know that its a dangerous game to get smug like that

but maybe you tried that stuff from out of reach. 

 

Or maybe I can handle myself just fine 

 

 

[Stosh]

4 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

I find emotional outbursts in online forums a bit pathetic. That’s the less patronising way of saying that. Bit impolite though.

 

 

Or maybe I can handle myself just fine 

 

 

Disrespecting people with condescension and boasting is not controlling your emotions or handling yourself just fine.

[Stosh]

33 minutes ago, Everything said:

Actually, ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) if you eat peanutbutter in front of violent people, and share your peanutbutter with them, they will be allot less violent.

There is actually a relationship between the founder of peanutbutter and the Source of the Original Plan of Creation.

The peanut contains all that you may ever wish or desire to know. Also in terms of human interrelationspaceshippionary dynamics. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

You can improve your peanut butter usage by employing conditioned helplessness first. Eat your food in front of them , but withhold it from them , ignore them , and it undermines their sense of status. Then you throw them scraps to undermine their dignity. Just don't paint the cell pink. 

[Everything]

10 minutes ago, Stosh said:

You can improve your peanut butter usage by employing conditioned helplessness first. Eat your food in front of them , but withhold it from them , ignore them , and it undermines their sense of status. Then you throw them scraps to undermine their dignity. Just don't paint the cell pink. 

I'm sorry, I will always worship each individual as the magnificent creation of the source of all creation, evermore.

Thus, unfortunately for you, my blood will be painted upon their walls by them, evermore. And I do not even forgive them for that. Because I didn't even blame them to begin with. As God never blamed them to begin with either.

 

The police and military only delay the value of life force that the criminal has to descend upon its victims. For the fulfillment of the power of the victim and also for the fulfillment of the discouragement of the criminal and receiving of value of unconditional love through their victims.

 

The police always is the face of the military that stands firm and says "you are not ready for my love."

And the lover is always the face of the victim that ever requests that love from the criminals.

 

I am not saying there is no value in the police and military. But there is no value in the police and military. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

 

The police and criminal are two sides of the same coin. They are actually literally a manifestation of one overal personality construct that is in conflict with itself. And thus at war with itself. When the police bust open doors, not to capture rapers, but bust open doors to demand love, then you get the complete picture of the total integration of all of humanity as one.

 

However, these manifestations of this and that, or this or that, are only through the ever abounding mercy of the Source of All creation, so as to give humans time to correct themselves, consider it the reintegration period for the believers to accept the path of least resistance as it is offered unto them by the Source of All Creation evermore, to delay the instant manifestation, for the purpose of integration. But the truth always is, that this is that.

 

All is one, and the one are the all.

As all is here and now is forever.

Edited February 1, 2019 by Everything

[freeform]

25 minutes ago, Stosh said:

Disrespecting people with condescension and boasting is not controlling your emotions or handling yourself just fine.

 

You’ve been shown plenty of patience and respect already Stosh. If you find it hard to have a discussion without taking things personally or resorting to reactive trivialities then just don’t bother replying.

[Stosh]

7 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

You’ve been shown plenty of patience and respect already Stosh. If you find it hard to have a discussion without taking things personally or resorting to reactive trivialities then just don’t bother replying.

I always take things personally since they are said to me , I don't pretend to be a 'vulcan'. Treat all men as straw dogs - a good plan if one understands the usage. When you do get away from the go-to defense of smugness ,  I have nothing against your opinions, or the expression of them. I guess I'm just naughty about squandering all the patience it required of you. 

Edited February 1, 2019 by Stosh

[Wu Ming Jen]

I see everything as empty. If my mind attaches thoughts of true, false, good, bad, table, chair it is only my thoughts attached to something that is empty. Things simply do not care about thoughts and thoughts do not change things

 

If I say this is a chair many would agree of the chariness but the insane will see a sprout become a tree to become a sitting devise and then turn to dust. The insane may also wonder why a chair is needed when we can just sit down on the entire earth so the earth becomes a chair. Normal people as we call them are mostly mentally ill. IMO

[freeform]

10 minutes ago, Wu Ming Jen said:

If my mind attaches

 

An old teacher of mine used to demonstrate this quite well.

 

Where you’re sitting right now, turn your gaze slowly from left to right. Why do our eyes jump from ‘thing’ to ‘thing’, rather than smoothly track the space in between?

 

But since then I’ve discovered that it’s just the nature of vision. Vision is for targeting. 

 

Listening is different though.

[Stosh]

The old teacher should have explained that this attachment is about making attributions rather than paying attention,.. but what do I know !

[Zen Pig]

2 hours ago, freeform said:

The real value comes from this engagement with life

yes. well said.  I do not separate day to day life from some "spiritual goal or reality" .. it is all one thing for me.