Water above Fire

[Bindi]

36 minutes ago, whitesilk said:

 

Thank you for that Image Bindi! I've read descriptions of the image before, Would you describe the four yin/yang or tai chi tu symbols near the ox?

 

From Pregadio - "In the lower part, a boy and a girl who represent Yin and Yang are working on a treadmill placed in the Caudal Funnel (weilü), at the bottom of the spine. Inverting the stream of energy (actually the jing or Essence, depicted by the water course along the spine), they avoid that it flows downwards and is wasted. (With the Spinal Handle and the Jade Pillow mentioned below, the Caudal Funnel is one of the Three Barriers or sanguan.) Water thus turns into a fiery furnace, which heats the lower Cinnabar Field placed near the four Yin-Yang symbols; these stand for the four external agents (Wood, Fire, Metal, Water), with the fifth one (the central Soil) represented by their conjunction. On the left of the Cinnabar Field is the "iron buffalo ploughing the earth and planting the golden coin," an image of the first seed of the Golden Elixir." For his complete explanation of the whole diagram see here.

 

Actually this is relevant to yuuichi's question, 

"How does one identify Fire and Water? What are the characteristics of this Fire and Water?"

I am personally convinced that inverting the water course at the lower dantian is the place to start making an effort, the boy and girl are very active and working together side by side to invert the natural downward flow, but they are not water and fire, they are boy/girl male/female. So to me first examining the male/female energies in the lower dantian is the key. 

 

 

[doc benway]

 

Edited February 5, 2019 by steve

[Bindi]

2 hours ago, steve said:

 

Hi Bindi,

I'm curious if your quote was in response to my post?

Best, 

Steve

 

 

Yes, pretty much, I think this is a complicated topic, and I just wanted to not get it caught up in the many tangential practices that neidan has spawned. 

[voidisyinyang]

12 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

yes, lets spoil it hard and good. come on, quote the guy. i dare you!

https://books.google.com/books?id=Uj82DwAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

I guess if you're in China then you're firewalled from google?

[voidisyinyang]

5 hours ago, steve said:

 

Hi Bindi,

I'm curious if your quote was in response to my post?

Best, 

Steve

 

Steve in response to what you posted - (the water over the fire) - this is also called FREEZING the FIRE.

 

The nectar (or sweet dew, kan lu) is produced long after the intermingling  

of the four symbols (prenatal heaven and earth and postnatal heart and abdo¬ 
men) and the union of the sun with the moon (the positive 
yang and negative yin). He who knows how to gather it 
will obtain the golden nectar but he who does not gets only 
the white one (pure saliva).

Hence the prenatal heaven and earth and postnatal heart 
and the lower tan t’ien or the field of the elixir (under the 
navel) are called the four yin-yang (szu ko yin yang, positive 
and negative principles).

 

So alchemically (Taoist Yoga archive full text) we have "life-vitality" (jing-qi) and "nature-vitality" (shen-qi). The nature-vitality is the yuan shen as the right eye - it manifests when the yang qi is restored. So this is the "white tiger" (celibacy) - qi with substance of the right eye. 

 

When original or prenatal spirit manifests thus, it should 
be driven into the lower tan t’ien centre under the navel to 
fix it there.

So that is why the  Water in this case is "over" the Fire or "Freezing" the Fire.

 

So the qi is yang but the shen is yin. So it is yin-yang (over the upper body, right eye). Then the Green Dragon is the yin qi but has the yang shen so it is the Positive Principle as the left eye, (the external sun) the yang-yin or Dragon that is now female.

In the text ‘prenatal’ denotes the positive or spiritual 
nature..,.The true Tao is prenatal spirit-vitality....‘This [lower tan t'ien] cavity is  

not material  

and is the union of both the 
male (chien) and female (k’un) principles; it is called the 
cavity of spiritual vitality which contains both the elements 
of fire and water in the generative force.

So this "copulation" takes place in the upper cauldron or tan t'ien, energy field. The yang qi and yin qi cross with the yin shen and yang shen. So then you get Heaven as yang qi-yang shen and Earth as yin qi-yin shen. The external Sun (yang shen, prenatal Heaven) and internal lower tan t'ien (yang qi, postnatal abdomen) combine while the external Moon (yuan or yin shen, prenatal Earth) and the internal heart (yin qi, postnatal) combine. This is why the "prenatal positive vitality" or yuan qi is also the yang shen.

 

 

5 hours ago, steve said:

 

Water and fire have layers of meanings in alchemy.

In at least one school, water is generated in the mouth during meditation and is guided downward to the fire in the lower dantian where jing is converted to qi. This is a foundational practice.

This is one meaning of water above fire in a Daoist context.

 

Quote

Freezing spirit: An alchemical process which ensures the condition of serenity in which the practiser becomes unconscious, his breathing almost ceases and his pulses seem to stop beating for the purpose of gathering prenatal true vitality [yuan qi] in the original cavity of spirit in the centre of the brain and then driving it into the lower tan t’ien under the navel to hold it there to achieve immortal breathing.

Quote

When it mentions terms such as: freezing the fire,

Quote

Answer ‘Freezing the fire’ is freezing and driving spirit into the cavity of vitality (under the navel). ‘All masters taught only the freezing (or fixing) of spirit in the cavity of vitality.*

Quote

To fix spirit consists of concentration which draws the pupils of both eyes as close as possible to each other. This is called ‘freezing the spirit’, ‘looking backward’ and ‘uniting the sun with the moon’ for the purpose of returning to the prenatal state in which, while in the mother’s womb, the two eyes of the foetus are in unison, and nature and life are one.

Quote

‘Freezing the fire’ means that both eyes in unison look down into the cavity of vitality (the lower tan t’ien under the navel) which is called the gate to life (ming men) which is below and behind the navel and below and before the kidneys, the distance between it and the front and rear of the abdomen being in the proportion of seven to three. It hangs under and between the kidneys below and is linked with the ni wan or brain above and the soles of the feet below, being the source of prenatal Tao (immortality). Hence it is said: ‘This cavity is not material and is the union of both the male (chien) and female (k’un) principles; it is called the cavity of spiritual vitality which contains both the elements of fire and water in the generative force.

Quote

It is the consolidating method which consists of turning back the seeing and hearing to empty the heart (of sense data) so as to freeze spirit and so gather vitality which will then stop draining away. Only by daily practice of holding on to the centre of vitality (under the navel) to realise the oneness (of all things) can the union of heart and lower abdomen be achieved in the state of (mental) stillness. This can never be done by worldly men in their sleep.

Quote

 

Hi Bindi,

I'm curious if your quote was in response to my post?

Best, 

Steve

 

Quote

 

Hi Bindi,

I'm curious if your quote was in response to my post?

Best, 

Steve

 

 

[exorcist_1699]

While jing (water) has a tendency  to leak and go downwards ,  the  spirit (fire),  our post-heavenly mind , is always fluctuating and dissipating, hardly can  we consolidate and  settle it ; such a status, if we let it  continue , then  aging and death is  our  only possible  end. 

 

In fact, the more jing we lose, the more dull and unstable our mind is ; conversely , the more spiritual  power  you loose, say through reading too much books or playing too many on-line  games,  the more likely you get nocturnal jing leakages.  Besides,  we can say that why Buddhist type of meditation fails , especially for old guys/women, is its unable to identify this delicate balance and  feedback between these two poles.

 

Fortunately  , we can nourish qi from jing and use it as a  rising power ,  following the Du ( back and upward) channel , and make  it counter that  always uncontrolled fire...

 

Taoist water/fire theory is important due not only  to its actual healing effects on many diseases(  insomnia, mental retardation, impotency..etc) as its having adopted  by TCM,  but its playing as an important complement to the Buddhist cultivation .

Edited February 4, 2019 by exorcist_1699

[doc benway]

 

Edited February 5, 2019 by steve

[whitesilk]

12 hours ago, Bindi said:

these stand for the four external agents (Wood, Fire, Metal, Water), with the fifth one (the central Soil) represented by their conjunction

 

 

Looking at the image, below the four pictured yin yang symbols is a horizontal cylinder. 

[whitesilk]

So my interpretation is that yin and yang (the children in the water) represent the lower legs of the human body (the water element). Our energy may drain to water and is wasted if not caught by the of the three barriers or sanguan. 

 

One further note is that our hands as humans do respond to heat quicker than our feet. Take a warm bath with an even temperature of water and feel the difference between your hands and feet. In my experience, my hands felt warmer even though my feet were closer to the hot water.

[yuuichi]

I find what @Bindi said to be really interesting:

 

18 minutes ago, whitesilk said:

these stand for the four external agents (Wood, Fire, Metal, Water), with the fifth one (the central Soil) represented by their conjunction

 

So of wood, fire, metal and water, which is found in lead and which is found in mercury? Is the element Fire Li, and the element Water Kan? 

 

I know I repeated myself but I didn’t get an answer. Is lead Li or Kan? Is mercury Li or Kan? 

Edited February 4, 2019 by yuuichi

[Rocky Lionmouth]

Is semen about to start flying now? *worried*

[Taoist Texts]

23 minutes ago, Rocky Lionmouth said:

Is semen about to start flying now? *worried*

no, not flying

6 hours ago, exorcist_1699 said:

jing (water)

since it is water it will start flowing

 

The Jing Must Flow!

 

[doc benway]

1 hour ago, Rocky Lionmouth said:

Is semen about to start flying now? *worried*

 

Duck and cover!

[voidisyinyang]

9 hours ago, whitesilk said:

So my interpretation is that yin and yang (the children in the water) represent the lower legs of the human body (the water element). Our energy may drain to water and is wasted if not caught by the of the three barriers or sanguan. 

 

One further note is that our hands as humans do respond to heat quicker than our feet. Take a warm bath with an even temperature of water and feel the difference between your hands and feet. In my experience, my hands felt warmer even though my feet were closer to the hot water.

the boy and girl? That's the Cowherder and the Maiden:

Quote

If the outer sun and moon do not mingle their lights the inner water and fire do not ‘copulate’ and prenatal true vitality cannot manifest. If they are left to themselves to follow their postnatal course the element of fire will remain dry and that of water will continue wet, with the former soaring up and the latter going down, both running in opposite directions. If water is not scorched by fire it will not evaporate to become steam that soars up. This is the unstable state of water and fire as shown by the story of the cowherd and weaving maiden in the Nei Ching. 1

 

So again the "outer sun" is the left eye as the yang shen (yin qi) - as the outer moon is the right eye as the yin shen (yang qi).

So the "girl" is actually the MOON of the "outer sun" as the Heart - and so the outer sun must go DOWN internally but also must go "right" so that the yin qi is turned from Red Dragon (outer sun) into  Green Dragon (copulating with the white tiger) to create Yuan Qi.

 

So for the lower body - the right hand is the yin qi while the upper body is yang (as external yang shen via the left eye). So you put the right hand facing the upper body.

 

Quote

Fire is hot and soars up; it is symbolised by the maiden who weaves hard day and night, is likened to the heart (the seat of fire) which is impermanent, refuses to relinquish worldly attachments and is subject to the endless round of birth and death.

 

So the Shen as Fire - the Red Dragon - is the yin qi power as the Girl, the Maiden - who must be reversed internally - to go downward via the right brain.

 

Quote

According to Chinese mythology, to the east of the heavenly river lived a maiden who worked hard to weave heavenly robes. The heav¬ enly king took pity on her loneliness and allowed her to marry a cow¬ herd living to the west of the river. After being married, she stopped working and the king was angry and ordered her to return to the east, permitting her to cross the river to meet her husband only once a year on the seventh day of the seventh month.

 

So this 7th day of the 7th month refers to the Pole Star that is able to transcend the Solar-Lunar energy via time. So that the Lunar energy harmonizes with the solar - via the Pole Star cycle based on this reversal of time - just as the Pole Star is based on the "backwards wobble" of Earth - the precessional equinox cycle.

 

https://archive.org/stream/TaoistYogaAlchemyAndImmortalityLuKuanYCharlesLuk/Taoist Yoga Alchemy and Immortality Lu K’uan Yü (Charles Luk)_djvu.txt

 

 

[Bindi]

 

From Pregadio's notes to Poem 9:

 

Like Poem 8, this poem also refers to erroneous practices: cultivating "the Yin essence within Yang" (instead of the Yang essence within Yin), performing daoyin and massage, and carrying out breathing exercises. These practices do not make it possible for True Yin and True Yang to join one another, which is equivalent to returning to "the place where one is generated." 1 The Yin essence within Yang is not a firm substance. This line refers to the essence, or rather the essences, found within the body, some of which are at the center of the practices criticized in the present poem. Compare these verses of the Zhixuan pian (Pointing to the Mystery), a work attributed to Zhongli Quan: Tears, saliva, semen, juices, breath, blood, and liquids: These seven things are entirely Yin. Chen Zhixu (1290-after 1335), who quotes the Zhixuan pian verses in his Jindan dayao (Great Essentials of the Golden Elixir, chapter 3), adds: "Only the Essence prior to Heaven and Earth belongs to Yang, and this is what the saints cultivate to make the Elixir."

 

 

Edited February 5, 2019 by Bindi

[Bindi]

9 hours ago, yuuichi said:

I find what @Bindi said to be really interesting:

 

 

So of wood, fire, metal and water, which is found in lead and which is found in mercury? Is the element Fire Li, and the element Water Kan? 

 

I know I repeated myself but I didn’t get an answer. Is lead Li or Kan? Is mercury Li or Kan? 

 

Maybe this could answer some of your questions. 

[doc benway]

2 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

From Pregadio's notes to Poem 9:

 

Like Poem 8, this poem also refers to erroneous practices: cultivating "the Yin essence within Yang" (instead of the Yang essence within Yin), performing daoyin and massage, and carrying out breathing exercises. These practices do not make it possible for True Yin and True Yang to join one another, which is equivalent to returning to "the place where one is generated." 1 The Yin essence within Yang is not a firm substance. This line refers to the essence, or rather the essences, found within the body, some of which are at the center of the practices criticized in the present poem. Compare these verses of the Zhixuan pian (Pointing to the Mystery), a work attributed to Zhongli Quan: Tears, saliva, semen, juices, breath, blood, and liquids: These seven things are entirely Yin. Chen Zhixu (1290-after 1335), who quotes the Zhixuan pian verses in his Jindan dayao (Great Essentials of the Golden Elixir, chapter 3), adds: "Only the Essence prior to Heaven and Earth belongs to Yang, and this is what the saints cultivate to make the Elixir."

 

 

 

You're probably right.

Happy New Year!

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 5, 2019 by steve

[Rocky Lionmouth]

9 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

From Pregadio's notes to Poem 9:

 

Like Poem 8, this poem also refers to erroneous practices: cultivating "the Yin essence within Yang" (instead of the Yang essence within Yin), performing daoyin and massage, and carrying out breathing exercises. These practices do not make it possible for True Yin and True Yang to join one another, which is equivalent to returning to "the place where one is generated." 1 The Yin essence within Yang is not a firm substance. This line refers to the essence, or rather the essences, found within the body, some of which are at the center of the practices criticized in the present poem. Compare these verses of the Zhixuan pian (Pointing to the Mystery), a work attributed to Zhongli Quan: Tears, saliva, semen, juices, breath, blood, and liquids: These seven things are entirely Yin. Chen Zhixu (1290-after 1335), who quotes the Zhixuan pian verses in his Jindan dayao (Great Essentials of the Golden Elixir, chapter 3), adds: "Only the Essence prior to Heaven and Earth belongs to Yang, and this is what the saints cultivate to make the Elixir."

 

 

 

It’s good to see someone else state this. Perhaps the semen outbreak will be avoided.

[whitesilk]

12 hours ago, voidisyinyang said:

So the Shen as Fire - the Red Dragon - is the yin qi power as the Girl, the Maiden - who must be reversed internally - to go downward via the right brain.

 

I've read an article that the "right" brain refers to our cerebral brain (the one inside our cranium). Our energy center's have brain's of their own as focused ganglia. The "left" brain in this context would refer to the lower brain or the ganglia of the lower tan-tien. 

[Wu Ming Jen]

Better to stick with gut feelings with internal work. 

 

As above, so below," an ancient Taoist saying describes the link between our brains and our bellies. In Japanese culture, the term hara, which means belly, is the physical and spiritual centre of a person's being, yet it also refers to one's state of mind and character. In Chinese culture, tan tien defines the belly as the seat of feeling and awareness, and the source of chi or energy. The sacred dances, martial arts, healing arts and body prayers of many ancient cultures in North America, Europe, Africa and India, honor the belly and acknowledge its wisdom and power as our natural center.

 

Western medicine is very aware of the second brain.

 

The second brain contains some 100 million neurons, more than in either the spinal cord or the peripheral nervous system, Gershon says. This multitude of neurons in the enteric nervous system enables us to "feel" the inner world of our gut and its contents.

 

More importantly Happy New year, May the new year bring health, wealth and happiness to all.

Edited February 5, 2019 by Wu Ming Jen

[voidisyinyang]

3 hours ago, whitesilk said:

 

I've read an article that the "right" brain refers to our cerebral brain (the one inside our cranium). Our energy center's have brain's of their own as focused ganglia. The "left" brain in this context would refer to the lower brain or the ganglia of the lower tan-tien. 

good point. So the Eyes are based on the cerebrum - meaning they are reversed, just like the hands. So your left eye is controlled by the right side of the cerebrum, just like your left hand is controlled by the right side of the cerebrum.

 

But the CEREBELLUM is like a 2nd brain inside us - the so-called "reptilian" brain - and this is what the vagus nerve connects to as the processing of emotions and motions. So this has a DIRECT correlation with that side of the body. And this is why the EARS are reversed in comparison to the EYES. So the left ear is the Tiger (yang qi) while the left eye is the dragon as yin qi.

 

Oh I forgot to add that for the LEFT front vagus nerve - it's about 80% AFFERENT signals - meaning TO the brain from the small intestines (the 2nd brain).

 

So the key to realize is that there is a transformation that is a constant change - eternal. So the yin jing (Black Tiger) turns to yang jing (yin qi as Green Dragon) and the yin qi turns to White Tiger yang qi (yin shen) and the yin shen turns to Golden Dragon yang shen (yin jing). But this process has to rely on reversals at the same time - so up and down are reversed, left and right and forward and backwards.

 

So then with our eyes closed as right brain dominant the actually our left ear becomes dominant as white tiger. What does this mean? The right side vagus nerve of the brain connects to the left side of the brain but the left side vagus nerve does NOT connect to the right side of the brain. So with listening - there is frequency which is right brain dominant (just as vision is right brain dominant) but there is also TIMING which is left brain dominant (via the vagus nerve). So the Yuan Qi energy is this subharmonic as timing - the wavelength - as microsecond (the wavelength of ultrasound that resonates the WHOLE brain via the microtubules as quantum coherence). This ultrasound in turn has an ELF subharmonic - so when the body shakes and pulsates at 5 to 9 times per second - this creates a standing energy wave with the Earth's Schumann resonance (the Yuan Qi).

 

So what literally happens is that the jing as yang jing (yin qi) then fills up the right side of the brain (via the right side vagus nerve connected to the reproductive organs) - and then this cerebrospinal fluid transfers over to the left side of the brain and clears out the "Monkey Mind" - the conceptual blockages. THEN it overflows out of the Sinus Cavity - as the ambrosia. Only it's been charged by the Yuan Qi of the pineal Gland as the "copulation of dragon and tiger" - the yang and yin qi. So the pineal gland changes blood to cerebrospinal fluid. The blood has the yin qi in it. So this increases the yang qi. But also the Pineal Gland is a photoreceptor that receives light signals from the eye. So as the yang qi increases - this reactivates the lost  pineal gland function. The increased melatonin levels converts the pinealocytes back into their photoreceptor role (which is what the pineal gland was in more "ancient" times in our life evolution).

 

So in other words - to CREATE the yuan qi - you are taking in Ether energy that is the source of light. But to take it in - there has to be a superluminal medium created by two different wavelengths of light - the right and left eyes - that then cross (by rotating the eyes or by visualizing light as it rotates around the body). So this process then combines with the right to left process and the back to front process of the yang and yin qi. And that is how the Yuan Qi is then "FREEZING" the FIRE (the Jnana or Ether-knowledge) of reality.

 

 

Edited February 5, 2019 by voidisyinyang

[Bindi]

In this diagram of the microcosmic orbit, yin/water is travelling down, and yang/fire is travelling up, but this doesn't tally with the need to invert the course of water and fire?

 

 

[voidisyinyang]

6 hours ago, Bindi said:

In this diagram of the microcosmic orbit, yin/water is travelling down, and yang/fire is travelling up, but this doesn't tally with the need to invert the course of water and fire?

 

 

 

yes - that is from Mantak Chia I think. So unfortunately he does not understand the intricacies of the alchemy training - the person who started this website was a student of Chia, stating his third eye is not even fully open. Mine third eye also is not fully open - but I'm just saying the studying the actual alchemy texts are much more detailed.

 

So for the water to go down the front - there has to be a "double" reversion. I did a series of blog posts on this secret and I posted them here but people did not want to listen to this info. It requires studies the intricacies of the alchemy training.

 

So again on the lower body - notice that the water is in the "back" of the legs - and the fire in the front and then it's reversed for the upper body. So this actually refers to how the yin energy for the upper body is the right side but the upper bod is yang while for the lower body is yin and the left side is yang. (this is reversed for females).

 

So then for the water to go down that means the yang is now within the yin - as the White Tiger that has substance and has copulated with the Green Dragon - through the third eye. With the eyes open - the upper body is yang as the Red Dragon - so the yin qi of the liver goes out of the eyes with the Yang shen (what we consider to be external reality). So this has to be reversed - so the yang then turns into the female  with the yin qi now going down the front (from the liver). So the liver gets turned into wisdom energy.

 

so that red dragon then feeds the Black Tiger - and so this builds up the yin qi. So for the lower body - the yin qi is the back - and so this reverses the energy. The leg yin qi energy has to first be built up as that means the energy is being reversed. So this is why full lotus also reverse the leg energy by having the left leg on top (for the Yang to embrace the Yin of the lower body). That puts the emphasize on the liver yin qi energy channels to open.

 

So then the black tiger being sublimated WITH the green dragon then turns it into white tiger through the pineal gland. This means the right eye is the yuan shen with the boy as the yang qi (white tiger). So the yang qi has "substance" but when it goes down the front as the white tiger then it is the yuan qi energy (created from the copulation of the green dragon and white tiger). This is why rotating the eyes is crucial (as explained in chapter 6 of Taoist Yoga: alchemy and immortality). So when you rotate the eyes then the yang qi of the right eye mixes with the yin qi of the left eye via the pineal gland (having the yang shen and yin shen also reverse and mix).

 

So then the cerebrospinal fluid - now charged with yuan qi - is swallowed after it overflows out of the sinus - and AFTER it first fills the right brain (as yang qi) and flows through to the left side of the brain  and then overflows down the front. So when swallowed it creates great heat in the pit of the stomach and the yuan qi is then absorbed back into the small intestines and stored there.

 

So when the water goes down the front - it already has gone through the alchemical process of the Yang fire going down to go below the water - to create qi that goes up  but as "Air" - it does not get turned into Yuan Qi until it is then purified going back down the front - past the heart. Why? Because the "yin qi" is the liver qi from food and also from activated subconscious lust (since the eyes are open it is left brain dominant). So that yin qi as fire has to be reversed - and the yang qi is from stored up hormonal energy. So if it is sublimated it is cleansed and does not need to be purified. But if it is SULLIED by the lust of the heart going out of the eyes - then the yang qi as water HAS to be purified through the pineal gland copulation (of the green dragon and white tiger) and then has to go back down the front - to then increase the yuan qi and store up the yuan qi (via yuan jing).

 

So that is why the water going down the front is called the double reversion elixir (instead of just needing to sublimate the water going up the back).

 

 

[Mudfoot]

On 2019-02-03 at 7:08 PM, Taoist Texts said:

ohrely? whats stopping you? there are lots of formal instructors in neidan. you just have to formally fork over the money

Who would I trust with my money? 

 

[freeform]

1 hour ago, Mudfoot said:

Who would I trust with my money? 

 

 

Only ones that can demonstrate the various attainments...

 

start with the very basics (can they sink in the kua)...

 

Do they have a connected, springy, soft and supple body?

 

Do they have an actual Dantian (you should be able to feel it with your hands physically - moving, twisting etc)

 

Can they project Qi? (Not ‘oh I think I might have felt something maybe’ - but fall to the floor from the intensity type experience) 

 

Can they manifest and demonstrate Yin Qi and Yang Qi (sending electric shocks, or strong (painful) contractive waves through your body. Outside the body manifesting as the ability to move objects at a distance or affect voltmeters and other more out there yang Qi demos)

 

There are other higher level attainments of course.

 

Can they transmit various states of consciousness directly?

 

Do they demonstrate the classic virtues in an uncontrived way?

 

Do they show off in public or not?

 

Are they selective with what students they take on?

 

Many other considerations of course...