Water above Fire

[freeform]

9 hours ago, Bindi said:

I was referring to this system (below), though I have seen joy referred to as a virtue or a negative emotion as well.

 

Thanks for hunting that down Bindi.

 

Yes it looks like the chart may have taken the Virtues (De) and reinterpreted them as ‘positive emotions’. Perhaps to simplify things for a western audience?

 

As I’ve been taught, classically, the virtues are not emotions as such, but internal qualities or states. They are achieved through long term cultivation (or sometimes through divine intervention!) and over time replace the emotions - they aren’t present as a stable state in people normally.

 

Even then, the De of the Shen the heart/fire is ‘contentment’ - not joy. It will also have a specific physiological change that’s indicative of the full transformation of emotion into De - much more accurate than judging mental states.

 

They also have the water De as ‘calmness’, whereas I’ve been taught it as ‘wisdom’...

 

The others correspond though.

 

They also show a row for Mental Quality which I’ve never come across before and doesn’t seem to relate to either the De or the cognitive aspects of the Yang organs. I wonder what the source for that is.

[Bindi]

19 hours ago, freeform said:

 

Thanks for hunting that down Bindi.

 

Yes it looks like the chart may have taken the Virtues (De) and reinterpreted them as ‘positive emotions’. Perhaps to simplify things for a western audience?

 

As I’ve been taught, classically, the virtues are not emotions as such, but internal qualities or states. They are achieved through long term cultivation (or sometimes through divine intervention!) and over time replace the emotions - they aren’t present as a stable state in people normally.

 

Even then, the De of the Shen the heart/fire is ‘contentment’ - not joy. It will also have a specific physiological change that’s indicative of the full transformation of emotion into De - much more accurate than judging mental states.

 

They also have the water De as ‘calmness’, whereas I’ve been taught it as ‘wisdom’...

 

The others correspond though.

 

They also show a row for Mental Quality which I’ve never come across before and doesn’t seem to relate to either the De or the cognitive aspects of the Yang organs. I wonder what the source for that is.

 

Yes it might be a Westernised model of TCM, I embedded the link in my previous post. I still take issue with the idea that joy is a negative emotion though. 

 

 

 

Edited February 28, 2019 by Bindi

[Mudfoot]

4 hours ago, Bindi said:

 I still take issue with the idea that joy is a negative emotion though. 

Xi and Le are the two aspects of joy. 

Xi also translates as elation, which disperses qi and harms the Lung. 

 

Le on the other hand, relates more to harmony. 

(the seven emotions, Larre & de la Vall`ee) 

[Mudfoot]

On 2019-02-18 at 8:28 PM, Taoist Texts said:

 Taserhand

Taserface is already used, this and taserbody might be too close and cause confusion. 

[freeform]

8 hours ago, Bindi said:

I still take issue with the idea that joy is a negative emotion though.

 

In the Dhammapada, the classical collection of the Buddha’s teachings there is a verse (213) about affection:

 

Affection gives rise to grief;

Affection gives rise to fear.

 

For someone released from affection,

There is no grief;

And from where would come fear?

 

The teacher who I learned Daoist theory from always loses students over these sorts of things - because she refuses to alter the classical teachings - but actually that’s also the reason I stay.

 

It’s easy to think of the damaging effects of joy when overamplified. The extreme joy of the teenager high on MDMA for example - or the manic overexcitement of a kid on a sugar binge. Or that girl constantly craving new experiences, parties, risky situations etc.

 

But I don’t believe it’s only the extreme joy or overexcitement they’re talking about I think they literally mean simple joy.

 

I believe it’s only ‘damaging’ if your aim is spiritual cultivation. Joy or any emotion will move you away from stillness. It will make the heart engage and vibrate which will destabilise you.

 

In normal life though, emotions (all of them) are useful - they all serve an important purpose and shouldn’t be negated.

 

Although my interest is spiritual cultivation, I still live a normal life, I’m not a renunciate. I keep emotions out of my practice (unless they’re clearing reactions, although rare these days)

 

I also guard against emotional impulsiveness in daily life. I may have an emotional reaction (to someone cutting me off for example) but I notice it and let it clear through quickly. My practices have certainly helped with that.

 

I also don’t treat my emotions or my thinking under the influence of emotions very seriously.

 

That idiot that nearly ran me over on a red light - of course I’m not going pull him out of his car window to beat the shit out of him (which is where my angry thinking takes me). Or the joy and pleasure that that charming salesman is making me feel doesn’t mean I’ll trust him.

 

It’s very easy to be manipulated by your emotions if you put value on them and treat them seriously. That’s what our culture constantly encourages. Everything is about how you feel. It makes us wonderful consumers and easy targets for manipulation.

[freeform]

2 hours ago, Mudfoot said:

Taserface is already used, this and taserbody might be too close and cause confusion. 

 

You’re missing the obvious:

Taserfoot

:) 

[whitesilk]

1 hour ago, freeform said:

In normal life though, emotions (all of them) are useful - they all serve an important purpose and shouldn’t be negated

 

In junior high, I adopted the meditation that was explained to me at a Christan youth retreat:

 

Picture your mind like a tree, and your emotions like the birds flying around it. The nasty birds may come and land on your tree, yet you have the ability to let them nest or just wait for them to fly away.

 

I think that this meditation has helped me alot to reprogram my subconscious. Our conscious thoughts may re work some of the inner workings of our brains, for me I am trying to deduce why I've been waking up with a different song stuck in my head each morning. This morning's song relates to affection:

 

 

 

[Sebastian]

I'm also not one for forcing emotions for emotion's sake, but how about cultivating "the spirit of joy", "the spirit of happiness", "the spirit of Love" in your daily life ? These come to you naturally, effortlessly and endlessly when you choose to see the beauty of everything, when you choose see anything good or bad as a gift from the Divine. If your heart is not open like this and you feel you're blocked somewhere, then I think positive emotions can indeed be helpful to shift your energetic arrangement to a different posture. That's the value of Master Lin's 5 elements Qigong. Each emotion he uses has an energetic signature that will unblock a specific channel, but they are really used as a bridge to reconnect you to the source. Repeated exposure to these emotions will imprint them into your subconscious, so much so that it feels like you have a wonderful cushion of energy pushing you back up whenever you feel down. Happiness, joy, peace, contentment and gratitude, correspond to the colors of green, red, yellow, white and blue. We need them for our energetic nourishment. They correspond respectively to the liver, heart, stomach, lungs, and kidneys. Put all these colors together and you have white light,  or the emotion of love. If you live with unconditional love in your heart, or with the spirit of love, then I don't think you need to worry about feeling individual emotions. You're already there, and can just let your spirit watch emotions pass by like a breeze.

 

[freeform]

1 hour ago, Sebastian said:

Happiness, joy, peace, contentment and gratitude, correspond to the colors of green, red, yellow, white and blue. We need them for our energetic nourishment. They correspond respectively to the liver, heart, stomach, lungs, and kidneys.

 

Yeah, that’s a modern reinterpretation of Daoism. Which is fine. As I understand it, that’s used for ‘healing’ and emotional support/therapy. There’s nothing wrong with that of course.

 

But I think it’s important to separate this sort of thing from the specific path that classical Daoist lineages offer.

 

In the internal arts it’s taken for granted that you’re reasonably healthy already - both physically and emotionally, and that you’re willingly stepping on The Path. Which is difficult, arduous, full of pitfalls and requiring full commitment and dedication from its aspirant for life. It’s clearly not for everyone just as becoming a surgeon is not for everyone.

 

The problem starts when one begins to mix this classical Daoist approach to spiritual development with modern therapy type influences or concepts that are a bit more to our liking.

 

Because then this system of spiritual cultivation (which I believe is a real gem of human achievement) is watered down to such an extent that the original path that has been laid down and perfected over hundreds of generations by humanity’s smartest people, is lost forever.

 

So of course go ahead and experiment with eliciting positive emotions and create therapeutic models as needed, but please understand and bear in mind that this is not the spiritual path as it was laid out and perfected by the Daoist sages.

[Sebastian]

Well said, I agree that this approach to emotions is more therapeutic and not classic Daoist, which as you write, is usually a very sober and rational perspective to emotions. As you say, Spring Forest Qigong is a very modern medical Qigong system. The Master invented this part of his system to help folks heal in a more immediate way.  He noticed that by combining emotions and movement, while having an open heart, people could instantly shift their energetic arrangement, even with little to no experience of Qigong. So that's what this is all about, helping people with various illnesses shift their energy into a new posture that is more free-flowing and open to healing. It takes all the elements into account to achieve this effect : body, mind, emotions, spirit and intent. No area is overlooked.

 

I also agree with you Taoism takes the approach that you are already healthy and balanced to start, but many people in the United States aren't even at the start point. So this isn't a classical Daoist system, just a unique perspective on emotions and spirituality invented by Master Lin. At Level 2 and above emotions are discarded to focus on Light and the Void, and his Level 2 assumes you are already reasonably healthy and balanced, much like the classical Taoist lineages. And when your health drops, you are advised to drop back to Level 1 or Level 0 which are the 5 elements/emotions Qigong. That's my understanding of it at least, as a beginner cultivator of the system. 

 

Personally when I feel very balanced, I enjoy being emotionally sober. Just placing the mind on the body as was advised in this thread. But when I feel blocked somewhere, low or unhappy for some reason, I just set my intent on peace, joy or happiness and watch my energy as it shifts into a more balanced posture. The other advantage of all this shifting work is that you eventually realize that you are an energetic being, and that you can can shift your energy to a posture of peace and well-being whenever you set your intent towards it. It's empowering, but a very different approach than classical stuff.

 

 

 

[Bindi]

When I think of water in Neidan I think of this sort of reference:

 

Water is True Water, 
Fire is True Fire. 
Water and Fire conjoin: 
you will never grow old.

 

Water and Fire are divided between above and below. How can they be conjoined? You must avail yourself of the True Soil of wu and ji in order to seize and control the True Fire and the True Water, and to apply pressure on them. Thus you can cause them to ascend and descend, and to return together to the Earthenware Crucible.

After Water and Fire have been balanced, they coalesce and form the Golden Elixir, which is the Pure Yang of the One Breath and is as longevous as Heaven.

 

Source: Verses quoted from the Ruyao jing (Mirror for Compounding the Medicine) — Commentary by Wang Jie (14th century)

 

What is this water, and how to make it rise? Is it related to De? 

[voidisyinyang]

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

When I think of water in Neidan I think of this sort of reference:

 

Water is True Water, 
Fire is True Fire. 
Water and Fire conjoin: 
you will never grow old.

 

Water and Fire are divided between above and below. How can they be conjoined? You must avail yourself of the True Soil of wu and ji in order to seize and control the True Fire and the True Water, and to apply pressure on them. Thus you can cause them to ascend and descend, and to return together to the Earthenware Crucible.

After Water and Fire have been balanced, they coalesce and form the Golden Elixir, which is the Pure Yang of the One Breath and is as longevous as Heaven.

 

Source: Verses quoted from the Ruyao jing (Mirror for Compounding the Medicine) — Commentary by Wang Jie (14th century)

 

What is this water, and how to make it rise? Is it related to De? 

 

Yes I just did a blog post on the precise same secret that you have quoted.

 

https://elixirfield.blogspot.com/2019/02/the-secret-to-storing-qi-internally.html

 

So this is what I have been calling the "double reversal"

 

So now we switch over to Pregadio again - and discover this double reversal secret from the rotating of the eyes - the True Yin is the yang shen plus the yang qi (that goes down the front as the White Tiger True Yin). The True Yang is the yin shen plus the yin qi - that is from the yin qi going up the back. So the yin qi originates on the front as part of the yang shen and the yang qi originates on the back as part of the yin shen. But to create True Yin (Earth) and True Yang (Heaven) then this double reversal has to occur.

Normally the yin qi is is lost out of the eyes. So with meditation the yang shen is closed off with the eyes closed - and then the yin qi goes down. But then it joins into the yang qi and has to then go back up again on the back (as the double reversal as the True Yang or Heaven). Then the opposite is true for the yang qi - normally is originates on the back and has to go up but then it has to join with the yin qi to go back down again on the front as the True Yin (or Earth)

 

So the Virtue or "de" is the Yang Shen.

 

This is based on Pregadio's commentary and translation of "Awakening to Reality" -

I'll transcribe the quote:

Quote

In the postcelestial world, the Yang principle tends to rise to Heaven and vanish above causing the loss of True Yin; the Yin principle tends to descend into the Earth and be wasted below, causing the loss of True Yang.

So what this refers to is the Yuan Qi that emanates out of the pineal gland and so when the yang shen goes out of the eyes it then TRIGGERS the pineal gland to send the Yuan Qi down as  True Yin which is then lost as True Yang. So on the level of Yuan Qi, the True Yin and True Yang are interwoven via the Yuan Qi.

Quote

To avoid this the precelestial po-soul  (True Yang) should control the Yin principle (the "Mercury in the Vermillion")

So what this means is the yin qi of the yang shen  - this yin qi needs to be held down by the lower magpie bridge - overpowered and governed and controlled by the Yang qi.

Quote

and the precelestial hun-soul (True Yin) should restrain the Yang principle (the Metal in the Water).

 

So then reread what I wrote above - what this is describing is the secret of the book Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality - from chapter 6 onwards as the 2nd half of enlightenment.

 

 

 

[Mudfoot]

3 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

What is this water, and how to make it rise? Is it related to De? 

What! 

 

After more than 160 clarifying posts on the subject, and you still pop a question like this? 

 

@Bindi are you implying that most of the posts are unable to clarify the issue🤪? 

 

"Those who know, do not speak. Those who speak, do not know." 

 

 

[Taoist Texts]

6 minutes ago, Mudfoot said:

After more than 160 clarifying posts on the subject

Even after Awaken's)

[Mudfoot]

10 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

Even after Awaken's)

She wrote about how to sink the fire, the other half of the equation needs to be adressed. 

 

You might also argue that she wrote about tong rendu, and not qian santian, hou sanguan. 

 

And yes, I am now quoting. 

 

With regards 

 

Taserfinger 

(yizhichan..... 😁) 

[Mudfoot]

But then, Water and Fire would be different things in these two stages, and change again for the third stage? 

 

Again, using Wang Mu Foundations of internal alchemy as a source. 

[Bindi]

This is my tentative summary of the meaning of water as it makes sense to me -

 

When the emotions (positive and negative) are balanced and routinely rest in neutral then the yuan/first/original/primary/fundamental energy or qi which was previously dissipated in a downwards direction will start to flow upwards. 

[freeform]

1. Have you prepared the foundation for Nei Dan? Connected body, open channels, quiet mind, Ting & Sung, built and consolidated Dantien, quiet, relaxed, slow breath?

 

2. Have you ‘lit the fire’ and kept it going? Is your LDT constantly nice and warm like a kettle on a slow rolling boil?

 

3. Have you acquired the congenital small water wheel circulation? Is the warm bubbling ‘liquid’ constantly circulating around your mco?

 

4. Can you enter stillness for more than 30 minutes? 

 

5. Does the ‘white mist’ appear regularly whilst in stillness?

 

6. Has the white mist consolidated to a bright white light? ‘Shen Ming’?

 

7. Have you managed to anchor the Shen Ming light into your LDT?

 

8. Has the ‘martial fire’ breathing spontaneously started in you? ‘Wu Huo’

 

9. Has the ‘warm liquid’ worked its way through all your channels and around your whole body?

 

10. Have you began to produce sweet fluid in your mouth on a regular basis?

 

Yes?

 

Well done!

 

Way ahead of me!

 

Now is the time to talk about mixing water and fire!

[Bindi]

So far I'm just trying to define the water part, I think the water part of the equation is a very good place to start. Water should be the very first topic IMO and ideally it would continue to be the only topic for many years. 

 

 

[freeform]

14 minutes ago, Bindi said:

So far I'm just trying to define the water part, I think the water part of the equation is a very good place to start. Water should be the very first topic IMO and ideally it would continue to be the only topic for many years. 

 

Water is not one thing. Different things within different contexts.

 

For example in a Qigong context water and fire mixing starts as soon as you can sink your mind to you LDT.

 

In a Neigong context it’s a little different.

 

In an alchemical context it’s very different.

 

In a medicine context it’s different again.

 

I disagree that water in the alchemical context is a good place to start. It’s like talking about the chemical composition of rocket fuel when you’re learning to build your first paper airplane.

 

Unless of course you’re interested in a purely theoretical perspective - then of course it’s fine. It’s just worth bearing in mind that alchemy is procedural - it needs to be put into practice for it to be of any use (other than for mental entertainment).

 

I think building the foundations is the best place to start and really focus on for about a decade before alchemical water and fire is of any relevance. But that’s just me. (And my teachers. And the classics...)

[Bindi]

15 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

Water is not one thing. Different things within different contexts.

 

For example in a Qigong context water and fire mixing starts as soon as you can sink your mind to you LDT.

 

In a Neigong context it’s a little different.

 

In an alchemical context it’s very different.

 

In a medicine context it’s different again.

 

I disagree that water in the alchemical context is a good place to start. It’s like talking about the chemical composition of rocket fuel when you’re learning to build your first paper airplane.

 

Unless of course you’re interested in a purely theoretical perspective - then of course it’s fine. It’s just worth bearing in mind that alchemy is procedural - it needs to be put into practice for it to be of any use (other than for mental entertainment).

 

I think building the foundations is the best place to start and really focus on for about a decade before alchemical water and fire is of any relevance. But that’s just me. (And my teachers. And the classics...)

 

And what would it be called if I resonate more with the simplicity of the Neiye?

 

zhang 3

1 All forms of the Heart

2 Are naturally infused, naturally filled,

3 Naturally generated, naturally completed.

4 They can become lost, out of place

5 Due to sorrow, happiness,

6 joy, anger, desire, or profit-seeking.

7 If you are able to cast off sorrow, happiness,

8 joy, anger, desire and profit-seeking,

9 Your Heart will return to its natural flow

10 The natural emotion of the Heart

11 Is beneficial calmness and tranquility.

12 Do not vex it, do not disturb it

13 And harmony will naturally develop.

[voidisyinyang]

48 minutes ago, Bindi said:

So far I'm just trying to define the water part, I think the water part of the equation is a very good place to start. Water should be the very first topic IMO and ideally it would continue to be the only topic for many years. 

 

 

You are correct. What needs to be realized is that each "stage" in the training actually speeds up in terms of energy intensity. So you have to know the next stage ahead of time. To quote from the link give above - from Pregadio:

Quote

 

True Lead (☰) and True Mercury (☷) respectively represent True Yang and True Yin. The Yin and Yang entities that respectively contain these authentic principles are represented by "black lead" (i.e., native lead ☵) and cinnabar (☲). In the strict sense of the term, alchemy consists in extracting True Lead from "black lead" and True Mercury from cinnabar, and in joining them to one another.

A crucial point to consider, which directly derives from the principles outlined above, is that True Yang is the counterpart of True Yin, but — being the One Breath of the Dao — it is also the state of Unity prior to its subdivision into Yin and Yang. (This aspect of True Yang is often referred to as Pure Yang, chunyang). This explains the priority given to True Yang in the alchemical process.^(*)

 

So the true yang has substance since "yang qi" has substance - and this again is what I call the "double reversal" - Pregadio uses this term. I did half a dozen blog posts on this secret. Meaning - in the "strict sense" - the water as lead is the source of the True Lead even though though the yang qi is extracted out of the water. So the yang qi is then the Sun in that context while the Yang shen is also the Sun but the Yang Shen normally just leaves the body with the eyes open. So the yang qi is the White Tiger that has to return back to the heart (down the front as the double reversal).

And so how can the Yang Qi also be the Yuan qi? - the 2nd paragraph of this quote. This secret is actually explained by Music theory but I won't go into that right now.

 

Quote

 Reverted Elixir is formed by joining the two breaths (yin and yang qi) and therefore called the Male Tiger or True Lead [has substance] and Female Dragon or True Mercury [does not have substance].

 

So you extract the yang from the yin (black lead) but then the Water as black lead or black tiger is transformed into white tiger that is male as True Lead (how if the lead is yin). Because the Yang Shen combines with the Yang Qi (substance that was yin) and now descends down the front as the white tiger or male tiger.

Quote

even True Lead is discarded after you have used it.

So this means even the "substance" is not the final stage as it still has yin qi blockages with the yang qi  - and so the more the yang shen is purified then the more it turns to Yuan Qi that is formless. And so the Void or wuji is yinyang:

Quote

Its Yang half corresponds to the inner line of Kan ☵ (True Lead), and is typically represented by the celestial stem wu 戊. Its Yin half corresponds to the inner line of Li ☲ (True Mercury), and is represented by the celestial stem ji 己. Being found within both ingredients of the Elixir, Soil stands for their fundamental unity, and enables them to conjoin.

 

Edited March 1, 2019 by voidisyinyang

[whitesilk]

@Nungali

 

Now Mr. Beep is agreeing with us, we are correct.

[voidisyinyang]

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

So far I'm just trying to define the water part, I think the water part of the equation is a very good place to start. Water should be the very first topic IMO and ideally it would continue to be the only topic for many years. 

 

 

If the outer sun and moon 
do not mingle their lights the inner water and fire do not 
‘copulate’ and prenatal true vitality [yuan qi] cannot manifest.

Outer sun and moon, meaning the light of left and right eyes.
Their "lights of inner water and fire" means the light of yang qi (the right eye as water, the tiger) and the light of yin qi (the sun, left eye as fire, dragon).

So the Moon is yin qi as Wood but the light of the yang qi (moon as right eye, yin shen) is the "Sun" hidden within the Moon of the lower tan t'ien.

 

So the LIGHT of the inner water and the LIGHT of the inner fire - this is the GOLDEN LIGHT when the dragon and tiger as inner sun and moon copulate - in contrast to the outer sun and moon. So it is the Light of yang qi with substance copulating with the external sun as the yang shen.

 

So you have not just upper and lower reversing but also right and left reversing and also front and back reversing.

 

Foundations of Internal Alchemy. 

  Quote

 

Quote

The Cantong qi says: Dragon at West, Tiger at East... These verses also allude to the principle of "inversion"; ordinarily, the Dragon is an emblem of the East and the Tiger is an emblem of the West (see table 1).

 

http://www.goldenelixir.com/files/Robinet_The_World_Upside_Down_SAMPLE.pdf

 

So this describes how the normal "cycle" of the elements for TCM is then REVERSED for alchemy.

 

Quote

the "saliva in his mouth" represents the precelestial state

. p. 46, Wang Mu, Foundations of Internal Alchemy.

Quote

The True Yang...the  Yang principle is born from Zi and is stored in the Gate of Life....As it rises, it merges with Li [Fire], and by replenishing Li, it forms Qian [Heaven]. The yin principle returns where it belongs, the Yang principle is transformed, and one reverts to the origin.

 

p. 30, Foundations of Internal Alchemy, quoting Wang Haican (Yuan Dynasty).

 

So yang qi (internal Sun) rises as substance to merge with yang shen - the external sun as fire.

Quote

By refining the Ji-Soil, you obtain the Mercury within Li, the Sun. By refining the Wu-Soil you obtain the Lead within Kan, the Moon. The Ji-Soil rises, the Wu-Soil descends.

p. 55, Foundations of Internal Alchemy, citing Xingming guizhi

So by comparing those two texts it is very clear that the Ji-Soil that rises is rising up the spine - to replenish the Li. The Mercury is the "green dragon" after it first descends down the front (via the small universe meditation) and then rises up the spine to form Heaven. The Wu-Soil then descends down the front.

 

Quote

The technical terms for this practice are "drifting Wu to reach Ji" and "taking from Kan in order to fill Li". Others call it "using the kidneys to replenish the heart", "reverting the course of the Essence to replenish the brain", ....

p. 25, Foundations

Quote

Circulate the Metal found within the Water in the northern direction, in order to control the Wood found within the Fire in the southern direction. This is called "using the black to see the red."

 

So that means the metal goes down - in the northern direction - but it also goes EAST.

 

Quote

Direction of Metal (jinfang) has a double meaning: in the first meaning, it represents the West, and in the second one, it represents the Golden Elixir.

 

 p. 116, Foundations

Edited March 1, 2019 by voidisyinyang

[freeform]

44 minutes ago, Bindi said:

 

And what would it be called if I resonate more with the simplicity of the Neiye?

 

zhang 3

1 All forms of the Heart

2 Are naturally infused, naturally filled,

3 Naturally generated, naturally completed.

4 They can become lost, out of place

5 Due to sorrow, happiness,

6 joy, anger, desire, or profit-seeking.

7 If you are able to cast off sorrow, happiness,

8 joy, anger, desire and profit-seeking,

9 Your Heart will return to its natural flow

10 The natural emotion of the Heart

11 Is beneficial calmness and tranquility.

12 Do not vex it, do not disturb it

13 And harmony will naturally develop.

 

That relates very nicely to what we were talking about regarding emotions.

 

The harmony that develops (the calmness and tranquility) is the De of the heart.

 

To have achieved this virtue in a stable way is very rare and very good. Achieving all five virtues would lead one to becoming ‘fully realised’, ‘complete human’, ‘a sage’, ‘zhen ren’. This is what Lao Tzu was talking about. And as far as I understand that is Lao Tzu’s own level of attainment.

 

But (and this blew my mind a little when my teachers told me this)

 

It's still at a ‘lower’ level of attainment than where the later stages of alchemy lead.

 

In fact it’s below the level of ‘full enlightenment’. It’s the perfection of ‘the self’. Whereas enlightenment and immortality are reaching beyond the self to primordial pre-heaven stage.

 

In fact you can reach enlightenment and beyond without perfection of the self at all. That’s why there are stories of all kinds of low-lifes attaining immortality.

 

I must admit that this doesn’t sit well with me. But that’s what I’ve been told.