Water above Fire

[Taoist Texts]

5 hours ago, Mudfoot said:

She wrote about how to sink the fire, the other half of the equation needs to be adressed. 

Wait, it is not addressed in Wang Mu?

[Mudfoot]

1 minute ago, Taoist Texts said:

Wait, it is not addressed in Wang Mu?

But not in this thread, obviously. 

As for Wang Mu, I have a clear interpretation of that, only problem is that it is different from the latest input in this thread. 

Edited March 1, 2019 by Mudfoot

[Taoist Texts]

2 minutes ago, Mudfoot said:

I have a clear interpretation of that,

sharing is caring, you know

[Mudfoot]

1 minute ago, Taoist Texts said:

sharing is caring, you know

Good there are people here who cares..... 😁 

[Bindi]

5 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

That relates very nicely to what we were talking about regarding emotions.

 

The harmony that develops (the calmness and tranquility) is the De of the heart.

 

To have achieved this virtue in a stable way is very rare and very good. Achieving all five virtues would lead one to becoming ‘fully realised’, ‘complete human’, ‘a sage’, ‘zhen ren’. This is what Lao Tzu was talking about. And as far as I understand that is Lao Tzu’s own level of attainment.

 

But (and this blew my mind a little when my teachers told me this)

 

It's still at a ‘lower’ level of attainment than where the later stages of alchemy lead.

 

In fact it’s below the level of ‘full enlightenment’. It’s the perfection of ‘the self’. Whereas enlightenment and immortality are reaching beyond the self to primordial pre-heaven stage.

 

In fact you can reach enlightenment and beyond without perfection of the self at all. That’s why there are stories of all kinds of low-lifes attaining immortality.

 

I must admit that this doesn’t sit well with me. But that’s what I’ve been told.

 

It's interesting that the Neiye doesn't talk about 'fire', or later stages of alchemy, but it does talk about emotions and the 'Fount of Qi". There is more as you say, no doubt, but the 'Fount of Qi' or 'Zhenren' is still a a good level to achieve, and to my understanding is the basis for further development. 

zhang 15 "The Fount of Qi"

1 When Jing is preserved, it naturally grows.

2 Externally it will emanate.

3 Hidden inside, it becomes a primal spring

4 Abounding like a flood, it harmonizes and equalizes

5 It becomes a fount of Qi.

6 When the fount is not dried up,

7 The four limbs are firm.

8 When the spring is not drained,

9 The nine apertures freely circulate [Qi]

10 Then you are able to exhaust the universe,

11 And cover the four seas.

12 Within, when your mind is unconfused,

13 Without, there will be no disasters.

14 When your heart is whole within,

15 Your body will be whole without,

16 And you won't encounter natural disasters,

17 Or receive harm from others;

18 Call such 'Shengren'.

 

 

 

[voidisyinyang]

19 minutes ago, Mudfoot said:

But not in this thread, obviously. 

As for Wang Mu, I have a clear interpretation of that, only problem is that it is different from the latest input in this thread. 

Quote

Reverted Elixir is formed by joining the two breaths (yin and yang qi) and therefore called the Male Tiger or True Lead and Female Dragon or True Mercury.

And so "Mysterious-Female" actually means Tiger-Dragon! In other words "Mysterious" is a separate NOUN and not an adjective!

[Bindi]

21 minutes ago, Mudfoot said:

But not in this thread, obviously. 

As for Wang Mu, I have a clear interpretation of that, only problem is that it is different from the latest input in this thread. 

 

What is your interpretation? 

[voidisyinyang]

27 minutes ago, Mudfoot said:

Good there are people here who cares..... 😁 

Quote

The triagram Li is fire and predominantly yang, but the important middle line is yin, and so the Dragon is female. It is the yin essence in the yang, water in fire, the female in the male, the moon in the sun. It is referred to as Green Dragon....It is water that rises, being heated,

 

So the yin or water (Red Dragon) in the fire  - the yin qi in the yang shen - first it goes down but then it has to go from front to BACK - and then rises as Green Dragon.

 

Quote

The triagram K'an/Kan is Water and predominantly yin and female. But the middle line is yang and alchemically it is the yang in the yin, the White Tiger, ....its function is to descend to Earth when fire reacts with it. It is the fire in the water.

So then the "fire" in the water - it first rises up the back as the yang in the yin but then it moves to the FRONT and descends again.

quoting:

Tai Chi Chüan: Harmonizing Taoist Belief and Practice - Jeaneane D. Fowler, Shifu Keith Ewers

Edited March 1, 2019 by voidisyinyang

[Mudfoot]

30 minutes ago, Bindi said:

 

What is your interpretation? 

Well, my method diverges from that Damo Mitchell teaches, which seems to be a version of what freeform writes about. And most of what Voidisyinyang writes about is beyond my comprehension (his blog about Freezing the spirit had some good aspects though, with some free interpretation from my side). 

 

But since all these nei daners will chew me up if I write about the Shaolin version, @BindiPM me. 

[freeform]

14 minutes ago, Mudfoot said:

But since all these nei daners will chew me up if I write about the Shaolin version, @BindiPM me. 

 

I’m a lowly foundation builder - not Neidaner  

So promise not to chew!

[Taoist Texts]

1 hour ago, Mudfoot said:

the Shaolin version

[Mudfoot]

Training methods of 72 arts of Shaolin is better, and free for the download. 

 

I practice two of them, and I only recognize the names. The description of the five hands of poison is really funny? Mudball, poisonous Animals,.... 

I am sure the authors made most of it up. 

[Mudfoot]

20 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

Shaolin envy 😁

[whitesilk]

36 minutes ago, Mudfoot said:

free for the download.

 

Why is it so good, if they are giving it away?

[Mudfoot]

14 minutes ago, whitesilk said:

 

Why is it so good, if they are giving it away?

Even though it sucks, it might be better than the one posted by Taoist Texts. 

 

So it was a joke. 

[whitesilk]

fish eye soup anyone?

 

 

[Mudfoot]

18 hours ago, whitesilk said:

@Nungali

 

Now Mr. Beep is agreeing with us, we are correct.

Or, terribly wrong 🤪

[Mudfoot]

21 hours ago, freeform said:

 

I thought I would make a non-daoist, non-nei dan comment on this list. 

21 hours ago, freeform said:

1. Have you prepared the foundation for Nei Dan? Connected body, open channels, quiet mind, Ting & Sung, built and consolidated Dantien, quiet, relaxed, slow breath?

No disagreement so far. Not bad 😁. 

 

21 hours ago, freeform said:

 

2. Have you ‘lit the fire’ and kept it going? Is your LDT constantly nice and warm like a kettle on a slow rolling boil?

Some methods work a lot with the heat in the LDT. And then, others only work this up to a certain degree and then go on with other work. 

 

21 hours ago, freeform said:

3. Have you acquired the congenital small water wheel circulation? Is the warm bubbling ‘liquid’ constantly circulating around your mco?

I guess this is about Du-Ren circulation. According to Komjathy, the ancient texts doesn't focus on this. 

So you can do this in a slightly different manner. 

And in my practice, it is "spring water", since my method uses less heat. 

21 hours ago, freeform said:

 

4. Can you enter stillness for more than 30 minutes? 

Absolutely useful. 

 

21 hours ago, freeform said:

 

5. Does the ‘white mist’ appear regularly whilst in stillness?

 

6. Has the white mist consolidated to a bright white light? ‘Shen Ming’?

In "White moon on the mountain peak", you see it in front of your face. Interesting enough, Mitchell writes that this metaphore comes from the Nei Jing Tu. But in the njt, it is above the head, which is more in line with my practice. 

21 hours ago, freeform said:

 

7. Have you managed to anchor the Shen Ming light into your LDT?

 

8. Has the ‘martial fire’ breathing spontaneously started in you? ‘Wu Huo’

In my method, that does something different from the description in White moon... 

21 hours ago, freeform said:

 

9. Has the ‘warm liquid’ worked its way through all your channels and around your whole body?

 

21 hours ago, freeform said:

 

10. Have you began to produce sweet fluid in your mouth on a regular basis?

Some speak about spiritual water, also called unsubstantial water. 

This is not swallowed to the stomach, it is "swallowed" to the Heart/MDT and down to the crescent moon furnace. 

 

And then you work with it, which in my method would be more of an Awareness/wuwei thingie... 

 

 

As you see, some similarities, some differences. Still, even though my method is non-daoist and non-nei dan, I can find support for it in Nei Dan writings. 

 

Sort of makes you think that there are more varieties out there, and any single list of items might just be relevant within one branch or one stream of the Nei dan/tantric traditions. 

21 hours ago, freeform said:

 

Yes?

 

Well done!

 

Way ahead of me!

 

Now is the time to talk about mixing water and fire!

 

[Bindi]

2 hours ago, Mudfoot said:

 

I thought I would make a non-daoist, non-nei dan comment on this list. 

No disagreement so far. Not bad 😁. 

 

Some methods work a lot with the heat in the LDT. And then, others only work this up to a certain degree and then go on with other work. 

 

I guess this is about Du-Ren circulation. According to Komjathy, the ancient texts doesn't focus on this. 

So you can do this in a slightly different manner. 

And in my practice, it is "spring water", since my method uses less heat. 

Absolutely useful. 

 

In "White moon on the mountain peak", you see it in front of your face. Interesting enough, Mitchell writes that this metaphore comes from the Nei Jing Tu. But in the njt, it is above the head, which is more in line with my practice. 

In my method, that does something different from the description in White moon... 

 

Some speak about spiritual water, also called unsubstantial water. 

This is not swallowed to the stomach, it is "swallowed" to the Heart/MDT and down to the crescent moon furnace. 

 

And then you work with it, which in my method would be more of an Awareness/wuwei thingie... 

 

 

As you see, some similarities, some differences. Still, even though my method is non-daoist and non-nei dan, I can find support for it in Nei Dan writings. 

 

Sort of makes you think that there are more varieties out there, and any single list of items might just be relevant within one branch or one stream of the Nei dan/tantric traditions. 

 

 

There's also the idea in the Neiye that these things naturally happen if you are attending to the '5 thieves,' which might translate as there is naturally a fire lit under the cauldron, the contents naturally 'cook,' the Way is a natural way, and to me this is correct. At its simplest the Way is a method of aligning the human body and energy to its natural potential. At least to the level of Zhenren  Beyond that a very good teacher might be required. 

[freeform]

3 hours ago, Mudfoot said:

I thought I would make a non-daoist, non-nei dan comment on this list. 

 

Very good post.

 

You’re right there are different lineages with different approaches.

 

The Daoists took a lot from Shaolin. All good Qigong uses the Yi Jing Jin principles for example.

 

One of my old teachers used to teach alchemical operations by playing the Qin (big stringed instrument), and drawing calighraphy and expecting me to create the same quality internally. Although the calligraphy and notes clearly transmitted something that made my insides go crazy, I could not replicate it by myself! That relationship didn’t last long  I am by no means naturally gifted in any of this stuff.

 

Later when working with another teacher in the Longmen tradition, it became apparent that my foundation was not built fully. I got a few of the necessary qualities but there was clearly a glass ceiling that I couldn’t get past.

 

So it was back to dismantling the shoddily built foundation (took a while initself) before rebuilding from the ground up.

 

Except now I’m getting a lot more from the foundation practices including the electric Yang Qi coursing through my body (taserboy) which has actually changed my life a little - in the amount of energy and vitality I have every day - which can be directed into my training (and work/life). Its now clear that this is necessary for alchemical practice to be successful.

 

I believe that 99.9% of people haven’t built their foundation properly - I am certainly one of them.

 

 

[freeform]

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

There's also the idea in the Neiye that these things naturally happen

 

I think that would be pretty great, but in my experience of alchemical training from a number of different accomplished teachers in different lineages tells me that that’s probably a wishful interpretation. There’s nothing natural or intuitive about the internal alchemy that I’ve come across.

[Mudfoot]

12 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

it became apparent that my foundation was not built fully. I got a few of the necessary qualities but there was clearly a glass ceiling that I couldn’t get past.

 

So it was back to dismantling the shoddily built foundation (took a while initself) before rebuilding from the ground up.

Been there, done that. 

 

Actually, still doing that, starting with the first exercise we give to beginners, every day. I just do them better than before. 

 

And I spend time on the aspects of my tradition that most shun (the luohan gong), and without that I wouldn't be a part of this particular discussion. 

 

[Lazgrane]

I've found out that putting water over fire can also be used as a method to subdue the fire and prevent it from running out of control

[Mudfoot]

23 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

There’s nothing natural or intuitive about the internal alchemy that I’ve come across.

Maybe you can come to the same place with other means. 

I have only experience of this through my method, so that limits my view. 

[voidisyinyang]

I was asked to submit an article to a radical spiritual zine - you can read it here - just scroll down https://elixirfield.blogspot.com/2019/03/the-floodmag-invites-me-to-submit.html

Until Civilization Collapses: The Anatomy of Asymmetric Alchemy and the Eco-Apocalypse

 

by 

 

Drew W. Hempel, MA

 

In Westernized education, a style that covers most of the planet now, we are brainwashed by Platonic symmetric "materialistic idealism" logic as taught through our math classes. No one would "question" the Pythagorean Theorem since it's used any time someone does building construction. Little do we know that, as math professor Abraham Seidenberg revealed, science is a religion with math as the secret "ritual origin." 

 

So we should not be surprised at just how serious our situation is today in terms of what I dubbed the "rotten root" at the foundation of Western civilization - this is based on the secret music origins of math, from what math professor Luigi Borzacchini calls the "deep pre-established disharmony" that is the "guiding evoltive principle" of Western science.

 

But what other alternative do we have? Well actually humans, us modern biological humans, all originate from the San Bushmen culture that survived the Mt. Toba super-volcano explosion, 70,000 years ago. So our common DNA modern biology is from a "genetic bottleneck" of just a few thousand humans - and so 90% of our modern biological history is actually directly attributable to this original human culture. And yet even in the midst of our high-techno info age hardly anyone really knows the details of the original human culture, the San Bushmen culture. Only Dr. Bradford Keeney has been accepted as a "master healer" (not the exact term) or a "Big Doctor" - in the San Bushmen culture. You see all the males in the original human culture are or were required to train in spiritual healing.

 

So this truth of science is quite radical and the secrets of the San Bushmen culture have been rediscovered, with the logic again based on music theory but only now expressed in science through what is called "noncommutative phase" or asymmetry logic - a type of unified field theory science. So it was physicist Eddie Oshins while tasked to study "quantum psychology" - a term he dubbed - Oshins realized that in fact the secret of noncommutative phase logic was also the secret of nonwestern alchemical meditation training. Oshins worked at the Stanford Linear Accelerator Center and so he was upset when his research was co-opted into the more New Age "marketing" of 

spirituality - while the real "noncommutative phase" logic was missing from the New Age analysis.

 

What does this all mean for us modern humans? Our psycho-physiology is all wrong. But there has been a couple traditions that have continued on the San Bushmen healing culture - like the qigong Neigong Daoist training for spiritual healing or various meditation yoga traditions of India, for example. But again Westernized education not only does not include the yoga training but the West is based on symmetric logic, built in the math of the continuum, as a materialistic idealism. It's not until you investigate relativistic quantum physics, based on this noncommutative phase logic, that then the direct connection to our original human culture is realized.

 

But unfortunately time is "running out" for us humans and the biosphere that we evolved out of. So unfortunately there is an escalating crisis of lack of resources. So has been the amazing cost of Westernization - a tradition that actually goes back around 9,000 BCE. A good book that reveals this training is the book "Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality" - it is free online. The book takes years to study and it's a very intense read. I mean it takes years to figure out all the fancy terminology and how it is all interrelated. 

 

So what I did is I tested out my qigong training (that I did to finish my master's degree in 2000, from the University of Minnesota) and I tested this qigong meditation against strong psychedelic healing medicines - while I was in full lotus yoga position. Also I was able to study directly from the assistant of the Chinese qigong master who taught us - So I mean http://guidingqi.com - Jim Nance who was the teaching assistant of Chunyi Lin of http://springforestqigong.com so Jim actually healed my mom when she had been barely able to walk. He healed her while he was talking to me on the phone.

 

That is all I will share for now. In effect we need to question everything we've been taught. But also this does not mean that this spiritual body-mind (anatomy) training is not deadly serious. In fact on a serious level then the healer transcends death. So I know for a fact that ghosts are real. Before now I was a strong environmental and social justice activist. But I realized that the core origin of today's problems actually runs deeper. So if we go before Plato - to the PreSocratics - then we can get hints as the proper training for real true success.

 

So maybe we have just a couple years or a couple days - until civilization collapses.

Edited March 2, 2019 by voidisyinyang