Water above Fire

[Mudfoot]

Craving for attention? 

You have already posted this link in another thread. 

[Rocky Lionmouth]

Dont poke the bear lest you end up befouling the Blue Cupboard and we have to wade through frightening amounts of oddities.

[Mudfoot]

If a bear poops in the Woods and noone is there to step in it, is there still a smell? 

[voidisyinyang]

On 3/3/2019 at 6:15 AM, Mudfoot said:

If a bear poops in the Woods and noone is there to step in it, is there still a smell? 

A bear has a sense of smell about 100 times better than a dog - I think. I know a bear can smell from 2 miles away and bears are attracted to the smell of horse manure.

But smell can be "emptied out" by reversing the phase. For example Lemon and Orange are the same FREQUENCY - the same quantum frequency for their molecules - but their phase of the molecule is reversed - one is left handed and one is right-handed. Kind of like sugar - your body can digest left handed sugar but not right handed sugar. (or is it the other way around?) No the enzymes are right handed I think and the proteins are left handed.

Anyway - so this is due to the Weak Force being Left Handed.

Oh so that means a qigong master can SMELL over the PHONE - long distance - because our brains literally require quantum entanglement to process the phase and frequency of the smell - the protons are "de-localized" into the 5th dimension based on the frequency as phase as quantum spin.

So smell is non-local - and all perceptions are embedded in the 5th dimension - the Akhasic field or the ether or how ever you spell it.

So then to "empty out" a smell - the INtention has to be "bidirectional" as qigong master Yan Xin states - meaning that the frequency and phase have to be reversed.

So for example blue light is "absorbed" relativistically in order to make GOLD light - and this is how alchemy works also.

So blue light increases serotonin levels.

So what is the smell of blue light?

https://www.mcb.harvard.edu/archive/serotonin-and-smell/

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We discovered in our study that serotonin dials down release more indirectly.

So blue light increases serotonin which then "absorbs" or dials down the smell into the Ether - relativistically.

 

Whereas oxytocin INCREASES the smell perception - which is why females have a much better sense of smell.

Also the qigong masters are utilizing their HEART spirit via oxytocin levels - to smell non-locally.

So all perceptions are malleable via the Emptiness.

It is quite possible a smell would be neutralized if the bear shat right after hibernation because a Bear will stick Peat Moss up its back side during hibernation - to preserve its warmth. So the peat moss then composts and filters any smell from the poop.

 

 

[Old Student]

I signed up to this forum specifically because of this topic, which I started reading a little while ago.

My interest in 'water above fire', which I associate with Kan and Li, is a little involved.  I studied Hwa Yu T'ai Chi with John Li in Boston in the 1970s (xinyi liuhebafa), have studied things since but that has basically been a mainstay, I there have been periods when I didn't practice but most of the time since have continued to stand.  My interest has been in two threads related to this:  Phrases out of the Five Word Song that refer to 'microcosmic orbit' (小周天) in the beginning, and references to water over fire (坎離）near the end.  The second thread is that I learned that the kind of standing we did was called "Wind Circle Standing."

 

The first references are as follows:

放之彌六合，包羅小天地 (v. 5,6) let it expand to fill the universe (cosm), wrap and contain it as the small heaven and earth, which I take as a pretty clear reference to the microcosmic orbit practice, and

一吸氣便提，氣下可歸臍，一提氣便咽，水火得相見 (v. 123,124,125,126) as soon as you inhale raise the qi , the qi then descends and can return to the navel, as soon as the chi rises swallow, the water and fire must meet.

 

As for the wind circle standing, I went through a lot of stuff to determine that this is a reference to the cycle in the central channel (thrusting channel - 冲脈) and from what I could glean (again from a lot of stuff), the practice here starts with something nearly the same as tummo.  I don't particularly find this strange, there was a lot of mixture of thought and experiment in Central Asia/Northern China at the time when a lot of similar practices were gelling.

 

So I have been specifically working through whichever and whatever practice moves me toward generating the water energy, moving it up, moving fire down, and have had some successes and a lot more experiments than those.  I can get the energy to ball, I can make it rise (actually it goes up slowly with some glitches, but can get to my 'spirit valley' or middle of my head with a funnel shape pointing upward) and I can get my pulse to sink to below my dantian, with this water energy above it.

 

That's why I was excited to read the discussion.  I do this while doing my standing, I can stand for 40min-1hour with natural breath, but when doing the above detailed machinations, I find it difficult to keep going more than about 1/2 hour at the very most, as the breathing and holding are strenuous (at least at my age), and there is a lot of shaking, which oddly removes aches and pains as it passes through them.

 

Would love to hear people's thoughts about it.  It is the first changes this big I've made to my standing in 40 some years.

[Mudfoot]

23 minutes ago, Old Student said:

 I do this while doing my standing, 

So do I 😁

[Taoist Texts]

1 hour ago, Old Student said:

when doing the above detailed machinations,

you should not be doing those, they are useless, harmful and dangerous

[lifeforce]

.

Edited April 25, 2019 by lifeforce

[Mudfoot]

3 hours ago, Old Student said:

 

Would love to hear people's thoughts about it. 

So, all these inner processes are up for debate. 

Are they useful or not? 

Based on the Liu I-Ming thread, the verdict is "useless". 

 

But even if you adhere to a tradition that places value on them, there are different approaches and caveats. 

 

For example, some traditions seems to have a very strong visualizing and/or focus aspect in their approach (and yes, Mantak Chia and JAJ comes to mind). That is sort of a hot topic, and you will find several voices here saying that is bloody stupid practice. 

 

Another discussion would be if you are working with pre- or post-heaven Water and Fire. That one is also somewhat infected, because it separates the dead-end qigong practices from the true and super secret Ming method. 

 

On the other hand, working with Water and Fire is a stage (or ingredience) in alchemy which you can see in chinese, indian and european art work. 

 

I would say it comes naturally, it happens without strain once you get it, and when the process functions you move on to more important areas of development. 

 

If I would compare your description to my practice, you are describing more strain than that is required in my method. 

[Old Student]

7 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

you should not be doing those, they are useless, harmful and dangerous

I actually have some experience with that, dating back about 15 years.  I was doing what we were taught, focusing on my dantian (that would be lower dantian, below navel).  Extremely simple practice, just one pointed concentration while doing the form, doing the rooting exercises, doing standing, and sitting zen.

I got so good at it that my breathing started to stop (I'm aware of writings on various breathing techniques where this is considered desirable. This wasn't).  In medical terms it's called Cheyne-Stokes breathing, and it is a harmful dysautonomia. The solution to that, courtesy of my Zen master at the time, is that if you concentrate on the still, you will become still. I changed to watching my breath when sitting zen, and to circulating the qi (microcosmic orbit) when doing the others.  Since I do mostly standing, I have been doing the orbit, with natural breath, for about 15 years, (but was unaware of that name for it until I looked for how others had translated 小周天).

 

I'm not saying that is the end-all of 'it's harmful and dangerous you should find a master' but it does give me some perspective to know what is meant when someone says a practice is 'harmful and dangerous', and how to avoid problems. My 'master' was John Li. All others since have not seemed to have the same bond or depth, or have seemed like reflections of his teaching.

 

4 hours ago, Mudfoot said:

If I would compare your description to my practice, you are describing more strain than that is required in my method. 

My perception is that the strain is something that will pass, although I'm not sure. I started with about 8 different practices for (variously described) reversing the generative force so it rises to the dantian, cultivating Inner Fire, awakening kundalini, etc. and went through them in sequence each stand. Some of them had no effect except to strenghten the muscles, one gave me a lot of control over muscles that previously weren't voluntary, and one started to work, probably building on the others initially. So now I'm doing that one.  The technique is becoming more gentle, the results -- heat, shaking, visions, etc. are what is currently the strain, along with the breathing, which involves holding a breath. That part is difficult due to my age and not having started that earlier.

 

I also practice these when going to sleep and waking up, if I arrange my body just so (slightly modified from Chen Xiyi's position). Some of the things discovered that way I can bring to my standing the next day. I may soon be able to do away with holding the breath, since I can sometimes do without it lying down.

 

Mantak Chia and JAJ -- don't recognize 'JAJ'.  Mantak Chia seems to have a root in the practices in Lu K'uan-Yu's Taoist Alchemy or something similar, I find what he says to be useful through a huge filter -- I'm science oriented by training and a lot of what he says isn't even close, but I did latch on to some parts of his descriptions of Kan and Li after finding that my pulse actually did descend below my dantian. The scientist in me is still trying to figure out what artery-organ combination would allow a pulse identical to when my heart pounds in my chest, only down between my dantian and huiyin. The Buddhist-Daoist in me is more interested in the perception of looking down through my (empty) body when it is happening.

 

I have begun reading through the Liu I-Ming thread.  I can't get www.xiulian.com to display properly yet, have looked at some of the other references.

 

Pre- versus post-birth Kan and Li -- Could you please explain?  I had thought that Kan and Li were post birth and the process of bringing Li below Kan was aimed at transforming them precisely because they were so.

 

 

[Mudfoot]

1 hour ago, Old Student said:

 

I got so good at it that my breathing started to stop (I'm aware of writings on various breathing techniques where this is considered desirable. This wasn't).  In medical terms it's called Cheyne-Stokes breathing, and it is a harmful dysautonomia.

Well, you ARE messing with the autonomic nervous system, most likely in this case you would measure something in the amygdala. 

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reversing the generative force so it rises to the dantian,

Ah, reversal. That term is used to many processes. 

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which involves holding a breath. That part is difficult 

The difference between holding a breath and the breath stop naturally, the former involves strain. 

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Mantak Chia and JAJ -- don't recognize 'JAJ'.  Mantak Chia seems to have a root in the practices 

Jerry Alan Johnson, Celestial Masters, which also points to a possible root for Mantak Chias version in that tradition since there are many similarities. 

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only down between my dantian and huiyin. 

Anything else happening or is it mainly the pulse? 

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Pre- versus post-birth Kan and Li -- Could you please explain?  I had thought that Kan and Li were post birth and the process of bringing Li below Kan was aimed at transforming them precisely because they were so.

Maybe it is so, in some traditions. 

 

You could also see that as a great pun, hiding things in the open. Alchemist of all nations love that crap, and they compete in inventing fancy terms for it. 

 

But you could read through all the threads here on the subject without finding a description on how to interpret it, mainly because if someone did, a hundred fingers would quickly post how poor understanding the interpretation shows. 

[Mudfoot]

On 2019-03-05 at 12:00 AM, voidisyinyang said:

 so that means a qigong master can SMELL over the PHONE - long distance - 

So, continuing this line of thought:

 

If a bear poops in the woods but the batteries to his cellphone is out so he cannot answer when the qigong master calls him, is there then a smell? 

[idquest]

Well the smell is a complex organic molecule on one hand, but on the other hand it is an electronic signal in the brain which is triggered by such a complex molecule. While it would be difficult to transfer the molecule long distance, an electronic signal arguably can be transferred if the people involved have some kind of telepathic siddhi. Just some thoughts.

[Rocky Lionmouth]

Reception inside the blue cupboard is very poor.

[Rocky Lionmouth]

So anybody smell some shit in the woods during the last few weeks?

[William.]

On 2/20/2019 at 9:03 AM, awaken said:

 

Water is Chi.

Fire is your attention.

You put your attention in your body. It will make your body produce the feeling of chi.

At first, you might feel hot. If you keep on practicing, the feeling of chi might change into electricity.

You can feel weak electricity flow on you skin.

If you keep on practicing, the weak electricity flow will change into light.

Then change into samadhi..........

It is a long road.

The changes of water are based on your fire.

 

If I pay attention to my attention.. doesn’t this create a Self-referral loop?

 

If I let my Attention guide my awareness.. meaning becoming aware of the loudest thing in my awareness currently (any and all sense organs), moment by moment, Is this the innocence?

 

Letting my attention live it’s own life without manually moving it myself?

Without thinking about or forming opinions about where my Attention goes?

 

Is my Attention God?