Water above Fire

[Mudfoot]

@voidisyinyang I found the first half of Freezing the spirit, part III, better than the part you used above. Maybe because I feel it describe a process in my own art.

But between that, and that @Taoist Texts bullied me into quoting a daoist text, you two have almost destroyed my TDB image. Soon @freeform will write something that will stop me from making silly comments about bugzapping, after which I will have to change name and avatar and act like a serious representative of my school. 🐛🦋

[Taoist Texts]

40 minutes ago, Mudfoot said:

change name

 Taserhand

[whitesilk]

2 hours ago, Mudfoot said:

act like

 

 

 

 

Edited February 18, 2019 by whitesilk

[voidisyinyang]

1 hour ago, Mudfoot said:

@voidisyinyang I found the first half of Freezing the spirit, part III, better than the part you used above. Maybe because I feel it describe a process in my own art.

I added more quotes from the Taoist Yoga book.

Quote

If the outer sun and moon do not mingle their lights the inner water and fire do not ‘copulate’ and prenatal true vitality [yuan qi] cannot manifest.

That sentence sums up the point I am making.

https://elixirfield.blogspot.com/2019/02/freezing-spirit-part-3.html

So again the secret is that the left eye is the outer sun [yang shen] but is the inner fire as yin qi of the heart while the right eye is the outer moon [yin shen] but is the inner water as the yang qi.

So the Taoist Yoga book uses the term "nature-spirit" and "nature-vitality" - the first one is yang shen and the second one is yin qi.

Quote

the vital cavity of nature-spirit in the centre of the cerebrum. When life-vitality meets nature-spirit they unite and stay in the same cavity; the practiser should use a clothes-peg to shut his nostrils, quickly close his eyes and roll them from left to right nine times, and then pause to gaze at the light of vitality that appears in that cavity.

So "life-vitality" is yang qi and "nature-spirit" is yang shen -

So there is a cross over from the right eye (yang qi) to the left eye (yang shen) to create the "light of vitality" (a combination of the yang qi and yang shen).

 

So the "Light of Vitality" on it's own is the light of the yin qi of the yang shen - so at first it is red but then it turns white when the yin qi is fully restored.

The "the Light of Nature-Vitality" is another name for "light of vitality" in contrast to the golden "Light of LIFE-vitality" from the yang qi.

Quote

A diligent trainee is bound to realise the light of vitality which is red and reveals the blood-coloured (spurious) Mysterious Gate and when white shows the genuine gate which has neither beginning nor end

and so then the "Life of LIFE-vitality" is also called:

Quote

this light is vitality in the generative force.

in contrast to the "light of Nature-vitality"

Quote

It is called the light of vitality (hui kuang) and when it develops fully it is called the golden light (shan kuang). The generative force which is still immature cannot produce the white light of vitality and the immortal seed which is immature cannot produce the golden light. The light of vitality is like the moon and the golden light (of the seed) shines like pure gold.

So the key secret here again is that the yin shen is when the yang qi is activated but as the yin qi keeps being purified then the yang shen is activated (hence the rotating of the eyes also as the small universe MCO meditation).

Quote

The fullness of the generative force manifests as the white light of vitality and the fullness of the immortal seed as a golden light which reveals negative vitality [yin qi] within the generative force.

So the golden light is not the final stage - it is part of the process of the yang shen then "sucking" off the yin qi to purify the yang qi into Yuan Qi.

Quote

Since the light of (essential) nature in the original cavity of spirit (tsu ch’iao, between and behind the eyes) is now concentrated below the navel, the positive light of vitality in the latter centre will soar up to manifest before the eyes, thereby causing both lights to unite and remain constant

So what this means is that the "golden seed" as yang qi goes down - along with the yin shen - (the rotating of the right eye down) and then the yang shen rises up (from the yin qi in the generative force - the left eye going  up).

I added the "image" - to the blog post.

This is a quite fascinating image to examine - as the "Heart" as the yuan qi-yuan shen - is what overlaps the cross correlation.

I rotated the image - to emphasize how the left eye and right eye cross correlate the energies of shen and qi.

 

[freeform]

4 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

 Taserhand

 

Taser body actually  

[awaken]

On 2019/1/30 at 8:53 AM, yuuichi said:

Hi everyone,

 

One of the most fundamental things in Daoist meditation is to place Water above Fire.

 

I would like to discuss and try to understand this.

Who said Water must be placed above Fire, and what exactly did they say?

What is this Water? Does it have a description?

What is this Fire, and does it have a description?

 

Of course, generally the older the source of the quote which talks about this, the better (in my point of view).

 

Thanks

 

Water is Chi.

Fire is your attention.

You put your attention in your body. It will make your body produce the feeling of chi.

At first, you might feel hot. If you keep on practicing, the feeling of chi might change into electricity.

You can feel weak electricity flow on you skin.

If you keep on practicing, the weak electricity flow will change into light.

Then change into samadhi..........

It is a long road.

The changes of water are based on your fire.

 

[awaken]

On 2019/1/31 at 9:56 PM, yuuichi said:

So what you’re saying is that Water is originally at the bottom and has to be moved up, and Fire is originally at the top and has to be moved to the bottom?

 

The function of kidney is to control the water. The function of heart is to provide the fire. Our heart is just like the laser, can focus on something.

 

The kidney is under the heart.

The water will flow down.

The fire will burn up.

 

The fire must interflow with water, and then our body will be balanced.

[whitesilk]

1 hour ago, awaken said:

The function of kidney is to control the water. The function of heart is to provide the fire. Our heart is just like the laser, can focus on something.

 

I have read about and have practiced the technique 'breathing from the brain to the kidneys.' What does the brain represent?

[thelerner]

4 hours ago, awaken said:

 

The function of kidney is to control the water. The function of heart is to provide the fire. Our heart is just like the laser, can focus on something.

 

The kidney is under the heart.

The water will flow down.

The fire will burn up.

 

The fire must interflow with water, and then our body will be balanced.

sounds right, but what about steam?

if the analogy goes that far.

[whitesilk]

Take emotion's context:

 

The emotion of fire is anger.

 

The emotion of water is love.

 

The goal of tai chi practice is to place your water over your fire, or your love over your anger.

[freeform]

1 hour ago, whitesilk said:

Take emotion's context:

 

Well in Daoist theory the emotion of fire is joy and excitement, the emotion of water is fear.

 

But placing fear over joy doesn’t have the same nice message does it

[whitesilk]

7 minutes ago, freeform said:

Well in Daoist theory the emotion of fire is joy and excitement, the emotion of water is fear.

 

Source?

[Bindi]

1 minute ago, freeform said:

 

Well in Daoist theory the emotion of fire is joy and excitement, the emotion of water is fear.

 

But placing fear over joy doesn’t have the same nice message does it

 

I would agree to the extent that fear (plus a few other things) is what blocks water/emotions, but not that fear is water. Resolving fear etc allows water/emotions to flow. 

 

I didn't know that fire is joy/excitement, but which fire are you referring to, the fire under the cauldron, or the fire that alchemically has to descend?

 

I was thinking that the fire that alchemically has to descend is actually 'light', along the lines of the light of consciousness, or Spirit light, or some such thing.

[freeform]

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

I was thinking that the fire that alchemically has to descend is actually 'light', along the lines of the light of consciousness, or Spirit light, or some such thing.

 

Oh that’s not from the Nei Dan perspective. It’s from the 5 element theory.

 

In Daoist internal cultivation, the emotions are generally seen as damaging. That includes joy.

 

Ive also stated earlier in the thread that guessing at Nei Dan is useless at best and damaging at worst. So I’d rather not discuss that.That’s just my point of view.

 

1 hour ago, whitesilk said:

Source?

 

The 5 element theory - which is pretty fundamental in Daoism from medicine to internal cultivation to ‘external’ cosmology.

 

 

[whitesilk]

Well now I know why I smoke, I am full of Grief!

[freeform]

3 hours ago, whitesilk said:

Well now I know why I smoke, I am full of Grief!

 

Or you use it as a way to control your liver anger

 

Or too much worry is causing you grief and so you smoke.

 

This chart is also a bit simplistic as it’s only dealing with the Yang organs... the Yin organs that correlate with each element also have a cognitive component that in turn affects the emotional component.

 

For example for the lungs, the Yin component is the large intestine... And your large intestine deals with your ability to let things go.

 

Can’t let go? That results in grief... and if you’re full of grief, you can’t let go... Can’t let go? You get emotionally and physically constipated (large intestine, remember?)

 

Its a pretty sophisticated model once you get past the basics.

[Bindi]

8 hours ago, freeform said:

 

Oh that’s not from the Nei Dan perspective. It’s from the 5 element theory.

 

In Daoist internal cultivation, the emotions are generally seen as damaging. That includes joy.

 

Ive also stated earlier in the thread that guessing at Nei Dan is useless at best and damaging at worst. So I’d rather not discuss that.That’s just my point of view.

 

 

The 5 element theory - which is pretty fundamental in Daoism from medicine to internal cultivation to ‘external’ cosmology.

 

 

 

Isn’t joy a virtue in the five element system? 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 26, 2019 by Bindi

[freeform]

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

 

Isn’t joy a virtue in the five element system? 

 

 

No - joy is considered a pathogen. As are all the emotions. I think ‘excitement’ is better description though.

 

The virtues (De) are a whole different kettle of fish. 

[whitesilk]

found this:

 

https://www.chinesemedicineliving.com/philosophy/the-emotions/grief-the-lungs/

 

According to it the large intestine is the yang to the yin of the lungs, or something like that.

 

"But judging that emotion is not healthy, and only makes you feel worse."

Edited February 26, 2019 by whitesilk

[whitesilk]

@freeform Which organ is responsible for laughter / humor?

[freeform]

59 minutes ago, whitesilk said:

According to it the large intestine is the yang to the yin of the lungs, or something like that.

 

Yeah that’s probably correct from the TCM perspective. I’m a bit rusty on that.

 

It’s also worth remembering that internal cultivation is different from medicine. Emotions are only really problematic if you’re a cultivator.

 

Nothing wrong with emotions for ‘normal’ folk in my opinion. Although it is worth remembering that emotions are just ‘internal weather’ - not taking them too seriously makes life easier.

[freeform]

37 minutes ago, whitesilk said:

@freeform Which organ is responsible for laughter / humor?

 

Laughter and humour are a little different to normal emotion from the Daoist perspective. Laughter takes excess heat out of the heart. It’s a healthy thing. Do more!

 

Humour has a very special place in Daoism actually. There are not many precepts in Daoism but Humour is one of them. It’s an important approach to life - finding the humour in things.

[Bindi]

1 hour ago, freeform said:

 

No - joy is considered a pathogen. As are all the emotions. I think ‘excitement’ is better description though.

 

The virtues (De) are a whole different kettle of fish. 

 

I was referring to this system (below), though I have seen joy referred to as a virtue or a negative emotion as well.

 

Element	Wood	Fire	Earth	Metal	Water
Planet	Jupiter	Mars	Saturn	Venus	Mercury
Mental Quality	sensitivity	creativity	clarity	intuition	spontaneity
Negative Emotion	anger, frustration	over-excitation	worry, anxiety	grief, sadness	fear, lack of will
Positive Emotion	patience	joy	empathy,love	courage	calmness
Zang (yin organs)	liver	heart/pericardium	spleen/pancreas	lung	kidney
Fu (yang organs)	gall bladder	small intestine/San Jiao	stomach	large intestine	urinary bladder
Sensory organ	eye	tongue	mouth	nose	ears
Body Part	tendons	pulse	muscle	skin	bones
Body Fluid	tears	sweat	saliva	mucus	urine
Finger	index finger	middle finger	thumb	ring finger	little finger
Sense	sight	speech	taste	smell	hearing
Taste	sour	bitter	sweet	pungent	salty
Smell	rancid	scorched	fragrant	putrid	rotten
Life	birth	youth	adulthood	old age	deat

[whitesilk]

14 hours ago, whitesilk said:

Take emotion's context:

 

The emotion of fire is anger.

 

The emotion of water is love.

 

The goal of tai chi practice is to place your water over your fire, or your love over your anger

 

My source:

 

 

[voidisyinyang]

6 minutes ago, whitesilk said:

 

My source:

 

 

 

Quote

When you have a moment of joy in your mind, you are blown around by air.'"

 

to quote Master Nan, Huai jin:

Quote

Joy means both psychological and physical joy. ...Physical joy is born from vitality. If your vitality is not complete then you can not experience physical joy....But in ordinary people, after the vitality is complete, sexual desire - ignorance - comes along with it. You will be able to refine ching [jing] vitality into ch'i energy only if you can be liberated from ignorance and desire and transform them and sublimate them: only then can you attain the realm of psychological joy.... The other side of joy, the dark side of joy is affliction.... Joy is also a false thought. However joy is the positive aspect.... All false thoughts, and especially sexual desire, fall within the scope of the two great catastrophes of fire and water."