How to recognise a taoist master

[WhiteTiger]

Thanks for remembering and reminding me!

 

You asked (about my teachers),

"I wonder whether you'd think that the following description applies to both:

 

They are positive beyond reason."

 

Good question. We would have to start by finding a common definition of "positive." To me, positive is yang and negative is yin, but yang vs. yin isn't "good" vs. "not so good" and therefore positive vs. negative isn't either. An example of what I mean: place two lenses side by side and compare -- positive is convex and negative is concave; look at a landscape -- positive is the mountain and negative is the valley; put a t-shirt on -- positive is the outside of it which the world sees and negative is its inside that touches your body. Neither one is better or worse... each serves its own purpose -- as well as the purpose of creating its opposite!

 

So if you mean that both are positive in the sense the word is used in English (which is a wrong way to use it far as I'm concerned, and there's a not-so-good historic reason for such usage... but I won't go there now) --

 

i.e. in the sense "optimistic, affirming, seeing good in everyone and everything" -- the answer has to be no. My taiji teacher indeed has this kind of personality, easygoing and cheerful -- or at least I have never seen him in any other mood and have reasons to believe he is very genuinely content and truly feels deeply good when he acts it (which seems like pretty much always). My taoist teacher, however, is impossible to read in any simple terms, and is quite easy to misinterpret. She does seem like one of those masters to whom ordinary people are "straw dogs" (TTC). She is demanding, impatient, has a short fuse, and makes me feel stupid and inadequate. The thing is, whenever she does, she is one hundred percent right -- and I wouldn't accept it coming from anyone else, so she's my only chance to face my own inadequacies without bullshitting myself about my "level" of this and that. If it wasn't for her, who knows -- I could wind up fancying myself a great master like so many do just because there's no one there to smack them.

 

Overall they're as different as... OK, it's like that Simpsons quote from an episode where the Simpsons enter a Japanese game show:

"Our Japanese game shows are a little different from your American ones. In America, you reward knowledge... In Japan, we punish ignorance!!"

 

Now if you meant positive-negative in the yin-yang sense, then the answer is also no. My taiji teacher is very yin-yang-balanced -- an embodiment of the middle way. My taoist teacher alternates between extreme yang and extreme yin and avoids the middle way like the plague. I could tell stories if I could tell stories...

 

So, Xeno, what do you make of it?

 

Why does your Taoist Master go to extremes of Yin and Yang, while your Tai Chi teacher is the middle way? I'm not a seasoned Tai Chi'er yet. but before i ever started on my journey i was attracted to the Middle way. Mind explaining a little on the difference of Extreme Yin and Extreme Yang? What wisdom of use or why the use of this? Does she have a husband, are they sharing the balancing of Yin and Yang to balance each other out. Or rather she is in constant fighting. Always in flux, going back and forth as she chooses with all her wisdom and/or knowledge how to best teach or do good as it is considered. I understand Yin and Yang only recently how negative can actually help me (which i always found myself fighting against). (what can i say i'm a man, i know the uses of positive hehehe, i guess that isn't actually funny at all )

 

Might you also be willing to say on this forum what sect she had learned from in the past and currently.

Edited February 22, 2008 by WhiteTiger

[Taomeow]

Why does your Taoist Master go to extremes of Yin and Yang, while your Tai Chi teacher is the middle way? I'm not a seasoned Tai Chi'er yet. but before i ever started on my journey i was attracted to the Middle way. Mind explaining a little on the difference of Extreme Yin and Extreme Yang? What wisdom of use or why the use of this? Does she have a husband, are they sharing the balancing of Yin and Yang to balance each other out. Or rather she is in constant fighting. Always in flux, going back and forth as she chooses with all her wisdom and/or knowledge how to best teach or do good as it is considered. I understand Yin and Yang only recently how negative can actually help me (which i always found myself fighting against). (what can i say i'm a man, i know the uses of positive hehehe, i guess that isn't actually funny at all )

 

Might you also be willing to say on this forum what sect she had learned from in the past and currently.

Her reasoning: no one can know the middle who doesn't know the extremes. Simple (but sacred) geometry. Think about it, it's tres profound. The middle of what exactly are you at when you think you're in the middle? Remember how Gautama went to extremes of wealth and poverty, indulgence and asceticism, trying to do it all and trying to do nothing at all? -- that was his way to find the middle. It is everyone's way in fact, but few have the guts.

 

I am not allowed to discuss her family situation. She is not a public person. I really don't want to discuss her lineages either, I know it may seem suspicious but if I do it would sound like bragging, and then someone will ask for "proof" and I'm, like, damned if I do and damn if I don't "prove it." I don't know how to address it to avoid this. Personally, I've nothing to brag about, she's taught me "the tip of the iceberg" so far -- all I know is she's the real deal and even a crumb from her spiritual feast can sustain me for a very long time.

[witch]

I find nothing funny about a person inadvertently taking a pratfall. But I find everything funny about a person who has taken a pratfall and thinks it's humorous themselves because life is full of pratfalls and we all take them. Exposing the weaknesses of others is not funny. Exposing one's own weakness is. It assumes a common human experience, a human connection, because we laugh together. Like when Oscar Wilde said, "Either this wallpaper goes, or I do." There is a shared secret between two people laughing, and it does take the sting out of awful things, as you say.

 

Although I am perfectly capable of fully crying. I can easily cry for hours, so I don't think my enjoyment of laughter stems from unexpressed grief. I think it's more an intimacy, a camaraderie, and a recognition of the human condition that no amount of crying can express.

[xenolith]

Her reasoning: no one can know the middle who doesn't know the extremes. Simple (but sacred) geometry. Think about it, it's tres profound. The middle of what exactly are you at when you think you're in the middle? Remember how Gautama went to extremes of wealth and poverty, indulgence and asceticism, trying to do it all and trying to do nothing at all? -- that was his way to find the middle. It is everyone's way in fact, but few have the guts.

This is an extraordinarily important point. Tres profound indeed.

 

Also, I should have included in my definition of 'positive' the nuance that often the improvements manifest in those around a taoist master occur without the one so affected understanding how that change happened. It way in fact be some time after 'contact' that the so affected one becomes aware of the change.

[joeblast]

 

[WhiteTiger]

Why does your Taoist Master go to extremes of Yin and Yang, while your Tai Chi teacher is the middle way? I'm not a seasoned Tai Chi'er yet. but before i ever started on my journey i was attracted to the Middle way. Mind explaining a little on the difference of Extreme Yin and Extreme Yang? What wisdom of use or why the use of this? Does she have a husband, are they sharing the balancing of Yin and Yang to balance each other out. Or rather she is in constant fighting. Always in flux, going back and forth as she chooses with all her wisdom and/or knowledge how to best teach or do good as it is considered. I understand Yin and Yang only recently how negative can actually help me (which i always found myself fighting against). (what can i say i'm a man, i know the uses of positive hehehe, i guess that isn't actually funny at all )

 

Might you also be willing to say on this forum what sect she had learned from in the past and currently.

 

Before i actually read what anyone has responed to my question or the other things on this topic, i realized why in fighting, why one would go back and forth.

 

Cheers for me *happy*

[WhiteTiger]

Why does your Taoist Master go to extremes of Yin and Yang, while your Tai Chi teacher is the middle way? I'm not a seasoned Tai Chi'er yet. but before i ever started on my journey i was attracted to the Middle way. Mind explaining a little on the difference of Extreme Yin and Extreme Yang? What wisdom of use or why the use of this? Does she have a husband, are they sharing the balancing of Yin and Yang to balance each other out. Or rather she is in constant fighting. Always in flux, going back and forth as she chooses with all her wisdom and/or knowledge how to best teach or do good as it is considered. I understand Yin and Yang only recently how negative can actually help me (which i always found myself fighting against). (what can i say i'm a man, i know the uses of positive hehehe, i guess that isn't actually funny at all )

 

Might you also be willing to say on this forum what sect she had learned from in the past and currently.

 

Taomeow,

 

What i meant was basically, depending upon what Taoist sections he has and is practicing under gives me a guide of which are the nuances of your Taoist teachers practices. Which is one thing I would be interested In. There of course is a whole philosophy of the reason a certain practice is done this way. I was wondering later what i could ask and learn from you. (with a set up of question answer kind of thing... of course in each question and answer personal views will be added in. not purely the philosophical reasons why something is done... as if its complete and total fact.

 

Maybe you would be willing to share some of the meditations you do , or maybe not.

 

I was in the presence of a Southern Kung Fu teacher that if i had learned half of what he knew i would become a renowned fighter. Well maybe thats horribly said... if i knew half of what he knew, and i trained as hard as he trainned then I would be a very well known fighter.

 

If you claim its morsel of your teachers teachings and the stuff you've been going over for a while on both forums then she must be really great.

[Taomeow]

Thank you, White Tiger

 

I can share some of my meditations, but I was already an experienced meditatior when I met my teacher, and she mostly wanted me to "stop it' instead of start something additional. I had to retrace my steps and return to square one, forgetting all the "advanced" practices I used to know.

 

One of the things she taught me is Time of the ancient science, Time you study the way you would study space if you were to arrive in an unfamiliar land governed by unknown rulers, inhabited by unknown tribes. You need maps for that, an idea of the kinds of transportation available, where you want to go and why, and so on. Gifts that will appeal to your guides. Weapons to ward of thieves. At least a few words to express yourself so you're understood. An idea of what to wear so as not to offend anyone. A goal and a destination (unlike on vacation as a tourist, you are not really allowed to just wander about aimlessly gaping at whatever you might bump into.) (Believe it or not, acupuncture is originally a spin-off of this science --

the needle connects a point of here-now, of the time where you're ailing, where the problem is focused and condensed, with a point in time where you're whole, and draws down its configuration to modify the present. This point whose configuration is that of health can lie in your past, your future, or your "absolute time" that has no past, present or future, and a precise placement of the needle is like an antenna that captures this particular signal and tunes in. This is forgotten by modern acupuncturists, mostly, the fact that theirs is a time science. Meditations can be used as such "antennae" too, you need to choose a point and "pierce" it with your intent, connecting it to any temporal or eternal aspect of you that you intend to contact. )

 

Another course of study is finer and finer yin-yang distinctions between phenomena. You could start by grasping the idea of their relative nature -- nothing is yin and nothing is yang by itself, only in comparison with something else. You can spend a whole day meditating on your immediate surroundings, your room or your backyard, looking into the yin-yang nature of things therein. Once you're good at it, focus on one thing only -- say, a plant growing in your backyard -- and spend a day on its yin-yang dynamics, from the crude to the most subtle. At the end of the day (or a hundred days, different for different folks), you may find that you know your own internal dynamics -- where and how your own yin-yang phenomena are taking place and how they interact with each other. Then you match it to the yin-yang dynamics of the cosmos and begin to grasp the nature of the sun and the moon, the wind and rain, the Triple Realm itself (heaven, earth, humanity). You can go anywhere you want with this; so if I want to go into taoist magic (e.g.), I know instinctively by the time I light my candles which one to light first and won't start out with a mistake that cancels the whole deal (magic doesn't work if you don't know "which button to push!") But if you want to take it altogether elsewhere, you can...

[三江源]

.

Edited April 12, 2015 by 三江源

[Taomeow]

 

That makes complete sense to me, TaoMeow. It's about looking at the patterning of this kaledioscope. letting the pattern emerge.

 

that's how I think of it ( experience it ): the image you see in a kaleidoscope, but holographic, including 'time', which doesnt exist., is what we are in, and part of. it's movement is a breathing. our karma is the way the pattern fans out in accordance to our energy shifts. (not a moral thing, no one to assign that kind of value, of course.)

Yes, I would also define taoist practices as "pattern recognition" kind of training. A pale ghost of this approach is, e.g., the IQ test which addresses one narrow aspect of the overall "pattern recognition" ability. The topmost layer of the mind doing that with greater or lesser efficiency can be roughly measured this way in comparison to other minds. The whole person, however, is as "intelligent" in space and time as his or her body, mind and spirit are intelligent at recognizing (and harmonizing with, and therefore having a measure of conscious control over) patterns of creation, which of course are not limited to the patterns recognized by "specialists" in any one field by any stretch of anyone's imagination, however elastic. That's the kind of intelligence we probably used to be born with some seventy thousand years ago. Today, we need to "cultivate" it if we want to have it. Ancient taoist tools are among the best available, far as I'm concerned, but of course there's other tools out there. One has to choose a set... you can't paint a cameo and a mural with the same set of brushes. Yes, it's not a moral distinction, more a pragmatic one.

 

In a sense, you create your destination by going there, you affect the pattern by perceiving it... but at the same time you don't create it "out of nothing," the prior patterns have to be phased in, and the border between "what is" and "what can be" is always shifting, oscillating... I just came across a parable that seems to have some relevance -- here goes:

One cold winter morning, a snail started climbing up a cherry tree. As he goes, a beetle sticks out his head from one of the cracks in the trunk and tells him, "Hey, buddy, you're wasting your time. There's no cherries up there." The snail nods pensively and responds, "Yes, I know. But there will be by the time I get there."

[三江源]

.

Edited April 12, 2015 by 三江源

[WhiteTiger]

Thank you, White Tiger

 

I can share some of my meditations, but I was already an experienced meditatior when I met my teacher, and she mostly wanted me to "stop it' instead of start something additional. I had to retrace my steps and return to square one, forgetting all the "advanced" practices I used to know.

 

One of the things she taught me is Time of the ancient science, Time you study the way you would study space if you were to arrive in an unfamiliar land governed by unknown rulers, inhabited by unknown tribes. You need maps for that, an idea of the kinds of transportation available, where you want to go and why, and so on. Gifts that will appeal to your guides. Weapons to ward of thieves. At least a few words to express yourself so you're understood. An idea of what to wear so as not to offend anyone. A goal and a destination (unlike on vacation as a tourist, you are not really allowed to just wander about aimlessly gaping at whatever you might bump into.) (Believe it or not, acupuncture is originally a spin-off of this science --

the needle connects a point of here-now, of the time where you're ailing, where the problem is focused and condensed, with a point in time where you're whole, and draws down its configuration to modify the present. This point whose configuration is that of health can lie in your past, your future, or your "absolute time" that has no past, present or future, and a precise placement of the needle is like an antenna that captures this particular signal and tunes in. This is forgotten by modern acupuncturists, mostly, the fact that theirs is a time science. Meditations can be used as such "antennae" too, you need to choose a point and "pierce" it with your intent, connecting it to any temporal or eternal aspect of you that you intend to contact. )

 

Another course of study is finer and finer yin-yang distinctions between phenomena. You could start by grasping the idea of their relative nature -- nothing is yin and nothing is yang by itself, only in comparison with something else. You can spend a whole day meditating on your immediate surroundings, your room or your backyard, looking into the yin-yang nature of things therein. Once you're good at it, focus on one thing only -- say, a plant growing in your backyard -- and spend a day on its yin-yang dynamics, from the crude to the most subtle. At the end of the day (or a hundred days, different for different folks), you may find that you know your own internal dynamics -- where and how your own yin-yang phenomena are taking place and how they interact with each other. Then you match it to the yin-yang dynamics of the cosmos and begin to grasp the nature of the sun and the moon, the wind and rain, the Triple Realm itself (heaven, earth, humanity). You can go anywhere you want with this; so if I want to go into taoist magic (e.g.), I know instinctively by the time I light my candles which one to light first and won't start out with a mistake that cancels the whole deal (magic doesn't work if you don't know "which button to push!") But if you want to take it altogether elsewhere, you can...

 

Thanks very much I am also looking for a taoist teacher... I don't want to stop practice and studying from outside sources in the mean time... but to search for a taoist teacher... well I'm at a loss of how to do this... i mean its normally they find you... i need to arrive how to properly go about fastening the pace of myself development and maturity in the low ability I'm currently at to properly display my previously achieved abilities or knowledge. Well a state i can properly present myself. Which is harder then it seems

[awaken]

這篇文章似乎是這裡最早的文章，看得出來很多人都想找老師。

在2008年的時候，我已經放棄找老師了。

我從1990年開始打坐。

當然我也找了不少老師。

2004年開始放棄找老師。

開始自己一個人練。

2011年我確信我找到路了。

2014年我開始在網路上教丹道。

一直教到現在。

 

This article seems to be the earliest article here, and it can be seen that many people are looking for teachers.

In 2008, I had given up looking for a teacher.

I have been meditating since 1990.

Of course, I also found a lot of teachers.

In 2004, I gave up looking for a teacher.

Start practicing alone.

In 2011 I was sure I had found my way.

In 2014, I started teaching Dan Tao on the Internet.

been teaching until now.

 

到目前為止，我教了八年。

初級金丹人數也有幾十個人。

但是金丹成熟的人，幾乎沒有。

我還在等看誰是那個有本事把金丹給練成熟的人。

 

I have taught for eight years so far.

There are also dozens of junior Jindan people.

But there are almost no mature people.

I'm still waiting to see who is the one who has the ability to mature Jindan.

[exorcist_1699]

17 hours ago, awaken said:

這篇文章似乎是這裡最早的文章，看得出來很多人都想找老師。

在2008年的時候，我已經放棄找老師了。

我從1990年開始打坐。

當然我也找了不少老師。

2004年開始放棄找老師。

開始自己一個人練。

2011年我確信我找到路了。

2014年我開始在網路上教丹道。

一直教到現在。

 

This article seems to be the earliest article here, and it can be seen that many people are looking for teachers.

In 2008, I had given up looking for a teacher.

I have been meditating since 1990.

Of course, I also found a lot of teachers.

In 2004, I gave up looking for a teacher.

Start practicing alone.

In 2011 I was sure I had found my way.

In 2014, I started teaching Dan Tao on the Internet.

been teaching until now.

 

到目前為止，我教了八年。

初級金丹人數也有幾十個人。

但是金丹成熟的人，幾乎沒有。

我還在等看誰是那個有本事把金丹給練成熟的人。

 

I have taught for eight years so far.

There are also dozens of junior Jindan people.

But there are almost no mature people.

I'm still waiting to see who is the one who has the ability to mature Jindan.

 

Thank you for popping up  this piece of  silly post which I forget I have ever written .

 

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

4 hours ago, exorcist_1699 said:

 

Thank you for popping up  this piece of  silly post which I forget I have ever written .

 

Can you recognise a taoist master 14 years later?

[awaken]

21 hours ago, exorcist_1699 said:

 

Thank you for popping up  this piece of  silly post which I forget I have ever written .

 

 

相信你現在也都自己練了吧?

 

I believe you have practiced by yourself now, right?

[exorcist_1699]

On 2022/4/12 at 9:28 PM, Pak_Satrio said:

Can you recognise a taoist master 14 years later?

 

Yes, a real master should have some kind of glow in his/her eyes . The Hollywood movies about superheroes /heroines are not all imaginary .

[exorcist_1699]

20 hours ago, awaken said:

 

相信你現在也都自己練了吧?

 

I believe you have practiced by yourself now, right?

 

There is no need to practice . No practice is the highest practice of Dao .

 

道何言修? 修無可修, 無修即修.

 

Edited April 14, 2022 by exorcist_1699

[awaken]

9 hours ago, exorcist_1699 said:

 

There is no need to practice . No practice is the highest practice of Dao .

 

道何言修? 修無可修, 無修即修.

 

 

這也是一種信仰。

六祖壇經的禪宗走的就是這個路線

 

It is also a belief.

This is the route taken by the Zen of the Sixth Patriarch's Altar Sutra

[Iskote]

In my experience, if someone claims they are a Daoist master or allows you to refer to them as a Daoist master,  then for certain they are not a Daoist master. 

[Nungali]

A Daoist priest and a Christian priest where walking in a forest . The came to  a stream and the Daoist goes first , he steps UPON the water and walks across its surface to the other side . The Christian is incredulous  and thinks to himself ; " he isnt going to get away with THAT ! I cant let my side down ; ' Oh Lord, please grant  me, your humble servant, the power to walk on the water , as Jesus did , so I may prove to this man the reality of the one true God ."  he sets off and immediately sinks up to his waist, soaking his robe . he gets to the other side and says ;

 

"Okay , what makes you Daoists so special ?"

 

" Special ?   I suppose it is our foresight  and  ability to look for the stepping stones . "

 

 

 

[doc benway]

2 hours ago, Iskote said:

In my experience, if someone claims they are a Daoist master or allows you to refer to them as a Daoist master,  then for certain they are not a Daoist master. 

 

The exception to this rule is anonymous strangers on the internet, no?

[Iskote]

On 5/9/2022 at 5:30 PM, steve said:

 

The exception to this rule is anonymous strangers on the internet, no?

 

I do not know what 'rule' you might be referring to. I only made an observation based on my own personal experience. 

I have never met any sort of 'master' who was not just a ordinary person with various human faults, despite any particular talent or skills they might possess. Why do you think anonymous strangers on the internet or otherwise would be any different? Feel free to keep on slagging if it makes you feel better however.

 

[doc benway]

It was a joke loosely referring to a few self-proclaimed Daoist masters online, at least one of whom was a member here for a short time….  not intended to insult you in any way.

Sorry if it came across that way!

_/\_

[Iskote]

1 hour ago, steve said:

It was a joke loosely referring to a few self-proclaimed Daoist masters online, at least one of whom was a member here for a short time….  not intended to insult you in any way.

Sorry if it came across that way!

_/\_

 

No problem, either way. Everyone is entitled to their point of view. All the best.