Concepts Etcetera

[rideforever]

Concepts As Practice

Nisargadatta is a non-dual teacher famous for his book "I Am That".  His realisation occurred by being told by his guru that he was Brahman (God) and he spent 3 to 4 hours every evening after work meditating and contemplating this concept.   After several years he reached realisation.

How did he use this concept of non-duality with Brahman ?
Was it that he spent all these months thinking about it and then after so much time he was "convinced" ?
No it wasn't.   The concept is like a tool that changes your structure inside.   It is not to be take literally.

It is a tool of practice.
The way I understand it to work is that when you imagine yourself to be God a union is created between you and God, and then your identity shifts into that union.  Therefore you become something newly formed, a soul if you like.   This is why realised teachers do not wield the power of God, because they are not God.
So ... that's similar to deity worship, visualising yourself as Green Tara until realisation occurs, you aren't Green Tara but it's a tool.
In koan practice once again concepts are used to break open the mind, and are not to be taken literally.

 

Concepts As Illusions

Are concepts illusory ? 
Do they mean nothing ?
If you daydream it means nothing.   

But if you are focused and present then you can make sense of things.
So, concepts are illusory if you are daydreaming only, but they become real if you are present and inject your reality into them.
Some people speak for hours and it means nothing.
Some people say just a few words and it means everything.

 

Becoming What You Are

Can we be anything other than what we are already ?

If I am already me, how can I be anything else ?
Is there therefore nothing to do ?
Well, if you go to medical college for 5 years you can become a doctor.

Are you then something other than what you are ?
No, you are still you.
You can only ever be you.

But you have actualized a potential that would otherwise not have developed.

And if you don't develop it, then it is not you but a potential never actualized.

 

 

[wandelaar]

The concept that there is a constant and unchanging "you" inside of you is plain silly. You, me and everybody else are constantly changing like everything else. Please wake up, and leave those silly dogmatic concepts behind.

 

Quote

You can only ever be you.

 

Empty talk! Nobody stays the same from birth to death.

[rideforever]

Wandelaar is coming .... run ... oh ... shhh .... too late !!!.

 

Well my good friend ... what to say.   
The world is floating and ever changing like you say. 
But it is possible to "awaken".   Do you believe that ?   Or perhaps you don't believe it ?
When I was younger I walked into a magazine shop one day in Bayswater, West London.  I had just come out of work, exhausted and strolled in.   There was song on the radio in that shop, the lyrics were something like : "it's later than you think it is". 

And it hit me, that most people die thinking they still have 20 years left.   
So with this awakening business, I figured, you know what maybe I should just try.   

Why not to try ?   Have I got something to lose ?
People talk a lot but how can you know ?
And, another thing.   I have seen people try, but not try.   They half try, their hearts not really in it.   Half trying is not really worth much.
The only thing that changes you is if you fully know, and to fully know you have to fully try.
And it's better to fully try, I figured, to give it everything ... then at least at the end you know for sure one way or the other.   

And you can move on with your life.

[wandelaar]

I no longer try to awaken as I found out that the awakened don't really know more than the non-awakened. The awakened often have the impression of absolute certainty during such experiences, but that doesn't prove anything at all. Awakened people can still draw hugely different conclusions from  their experiences, although there is a common core of insights to such experiences. And that common core of insights can also be reached via rational thinking en modern science. So what is all the fuss about...

[rideforever]

Everyone has to choose their way.

Another piece of wisdom that settled inside me is ... that if you are clever enough to pick holes in things, you should be clever enough to reconstruct any truth that lies within.

[wandelaar]

I think that there does lie truth in the awakening experience, but that one does not need to have the experience oneself to reach it.

[Mudfoot]

39 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

but that one does not need to have the experience oneself to reach it.

No, but to experience it, in contrast to believe in it. 

[wandelaar]

54 minutes ago, Mudfoot said:

No, but to experience it, in contrast to believe in it. 

 

I'm not believing in it, it's my considered opinion. And to me that's worth a lot more than the mere impression of absolute certainty that often accompanies the awakening experience. To me the awakening experience illustrates my considered opinion instead of the other way around. And I don't doubt that there are people who had the awakening experience . So I don't have to wait for it to happen to myself as proof that those kind of experiences exist.

 

Edited February 3, 2019 by wandelaar

[Everything]

3 hours ago, wandelaar said:

I no longer try to awaken as I found out that the awakened don't really know more than the non-awakened. The awakened often have the impression of absolute certainty during such experiences, but that doesn't prove anything at all. Awakened people can still draw hugely different conclusions from  their experiences, although there is a common core of insights to such experiences. And that common core of insights can also be reached via rational thinking en modern science. So what is all the fuss about...

But in your less trying to be more awakened, you accomplish the true doing. So you are then more awakened.

Edited February 3, 2019 by Everything

[Everything]

3 hours ago, wandelaar said:

I think that there does lie truth in the awakening experience, but that one does not need to have the experience oneself to reach it.

That does sound easier, so it will actually help you experience the awakening more fully, eventually.

Edited February 3, 2019 by Everything

[Everything]

2 hours ago, Mudfoot said:

No, but to experience it, in contrast to believe in it. 

Often we get ahead of ourselves. Take it easy, enjoy what is, and it will become more. But you don't enjoy it because then it will become more, faster. You enjoy it, simply because you enjoy enjoying it. Then it will truely become more, evermore, ever faster.

 

You lose track of time, because you don't care about time when you're already enjoying what you're enjoying. You don't need to be anywhere else, than where you are. Thus you allow yourself to be wherever you need to be more effortlessly and more easily.

Edited February 3, 2019 by Everything

[ilumairen]

5 hours ago, wandelaar said:

The concept that there is a constant and unchanging "you" inside of you is plain silly. You, me and everybody else are constantly changing like everything else. Please wake up, and leave those silly dogmatic concepts behind.

 

External changes that cannot touch the inner flame or spark or whatever you want to call it. 

 

And what if it's not dogmatic, but experiential?

[Zen Pig]

4 hours ago, wandelaar said:

The awakened often have the impression of absolute certainty during such experiences, but that doesn't prove anything at all. Awakened people can still draw hugely different conclusions from  their experiences, although there is a common core of insights to such experiences. And that common core of insights can also be reached via rational thinking en modern science. So what is all the fuss about...

Wow.  good thing its only the "awakened" who have the "impression of absolute certainty"..........  can't think of anyone else who comes off telling folks about what is real.  LOL 

Edited February 3, 2019 by Zen Pig

[wandelaar]

12 minutes ago, Zen Pig said:

Wow.  good thing its only the "awakened" who have the "impression of absolute certainty"..........  can't think of anyone else who comes off telling folks about what is real.  LOL 

 

All I am telling here is that absolute certainty is out of reach, even for the awakened. But apparently you want to make an exception for them?

 

Edited February 3, 2019 by wandelaar

[Everything]

You guys are talking about absolute certainty, you do know that right? 

 

You exist. 

Everything changes. 

 

It's not a concept. Your concept is subject to existance and change. 

 

So now what? Enjoy the changes. Accept the absolute certainty. And enjoy the changes as they are constantly coming. 

 

Otherwise ull just be dragged along by your feet...  And ull say, oh joy... Everything's changing... 

 

And then you accept and remember again, the awe of each new moment, that there has never ever been any one like it ever before. And then you look at the person dragging you by your feet. And you'll say, thanks! But it's ok if you stop dragging me. Just as it is ok if you drag me. I'll enjoy everything from now on. 

 

Because it is all temporary, and each moment will always be better than the previous one. You accept where you are, you enjoy it, and you can't wait for the next moment, because it is always gonna be a new experience for you. 

 

So you enjoy the ride. Cause it's temporary, as the ride is always gonna change into something new, never before experienced, so that you can continue to enjoy the ride of changes evermore. 

 

For example, I am dissapointed once again in my life... 

And then you enjoy it fully. Oh I have experienced this before! So now... The change has finally come! Because this time, I really, REALLY, know how stupid I am. I am far more dissapointed than I think even... Because this is the second time that I am dissapointed. So now I am even more fully awakened and I have now even become more stupid than I used to be! My stupidness has been more fully realised. 

And then you say, oh my God... I can't even imagine how stupid I will be next time... It's gonna be a stupidity unlike anything that you have ever seen before! 

But it's gonna take a while for me to reach that point. So, I am now more fully capable of enjoying this new stupidity of mine here and now. 

 

Maybe one day, I'll be stupid enough to no longer try anything. And just let live happen to me, like a plant. I kinda feel like I am a plant. My intelligence is pretty much similar to a plant. Very simple like me. 

 

I'm going to shine a green light on my face. And I'll soon become a plant. Hold on guys... I'LL BE RIGHT BACK. 

[Everything]

I'm not changing guys. What's happening? I'm not becoming a plant! 

Uhm... Oh yeah, do you realise how stupid I have become now? I thought I could change into a plant by shining green light on my self... That's completely retarded...

I need magenta light ofcourse! 

Just when you think I coulden't become more retarded...

Now I am shining, finally for the first time in my life, a magenta light unto my face.

 

Will all of my dreams be fullfilled now? Or can I become even more stupid? You'll see it in the next episode of the law of ever change. 

[Zen Pig]

2 hours ago, wandelaar said:

But apparently you want to make an exception for them?

well, I make an exception for you, so got to keep it balanced.      (just screwing with you, don't get your panties in a knot.  don't mean anything ... much/// by it, and also, what the fuck do i know)?  

 

[wandelaar]

I already have it balanced, I don't think absolute certainty is within reach for anybody: not for me, not for you, not for the awakened, not for the old or new Masters, not for the nondualists, not for the postmodernists, not for the scientists, not for the philosophers, etc, etc. Let's leave it at that.

[3bob]

10 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

I already have it balanced, I don't think absolute certainty is within reach for anybody: not for me, not for you, not for the awakened, not for the old or new Masters, not for the nondualists, not for the postmodernists, not for the scientists, not for the philosophers, etc, etc. Let's leave it at that.

 

and of course we also know that could all be wrong since we can not prove a dam thing to anyone else when it comes to such a matter. and to say we can would make us a fanatic of some kind.

 

Btw, I take it wandelaar has boxer shorts or Michael Jordan shorts, not panties, we wouldn't want to paint a wrong picture at his expense would we?

 

Edited February 3, 2019 by 3bob

[wandelaar]

Currently I am wearing trousers such as these:  https://www.atlasformen.nl/products/heren/kleding/broeken/elastische-corduroy-broek/c1122.aspx

 

Remember, it is winter where I live.

[3bob]

19 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

Currently I am wearing trousers such as these:  https://www.atlasformen.nl/products/heren/kleding/broeken/elastische-corduroy-broek/c1122.aspx

 

Remember, it is winter where I live.

 

ok, and probably enough detail, lol..

[3bob]

1 hour ago, Zen Pig said:

...also, what the fuck do i know)?  

 

 

a good beer from a bad?

[Lakshmi]

10 hours ago, rideforever said:

Concepts As Practice

Nisargadatta is a non-dual teacher famous for his book "I Am That".  His realisation occurred by being told by his guru that he was Brahman (God) and he spent 3 to 4 hours every evening after work meditating and contemplating this concept.   After several years he reached realisation.

How did he use this concept of non-duality with Brahman ?
Was it that he spent all these months thinking about it and then after so much time he was "convinced" ?
No it wasn't.   The concept is like a tool that changes your structure inside.   It is not to be take literally.

It is a tool of practice.
The way I understand it to work is that when you imagine yourself to be God a union is created between you and God, and then your identity shifts into that union.  Therefore you become something newly formed, a soul if you like.   This is why realised teachers do not wield the power of God, because they are not God.
So ... that's similar to deity worship, visualising yourself as Green Tara until realisation occurs, you aren't Green Tara but it's a tool.
In koan practice once again concepts are used to break open the mind, and are not to be taken literally.

 

Concepts As Illusions

Are concepts illusory ? 
Do they mean nothing ?
If you daydream it means nothing.   

But if you are focused and present then you can make sense of things.
So, concepts are illusory if you are daydreaming only, but they become real if you are present and inject your reality into them.
Some people speak for hours and it means nothing.
Some people say just a few words and it means everything.

 

Becoming What You Are

Can we be anything other than what we are already ?

If I am already me, how can I be anything else ?
Is there therefore nothing to do ?
Well, if you go to medical college for 5 years you can become a doctor.

Are you then something other than what you are ?
No, you are still you.
You can only ever be you.

But you have actualized a potential that would otherwise not have developed.

And if you don't develop it, then it is not you but a potential never actualized.

 

 

 

The statement that you are Brahman is more than a concept or a tool. It is literally true.

 

It is also true that you are any entity that you may invoke. This is to say, you are one with them in the universal field of consciousness to begin with. Your act of invocation is just actualizing that identity, to one degree or another. And that's how invocation works.

 

However, your identity with Brahman is the most intimate, direct and indestructable one of all.

 

Now sometimes seekers realize their identity with Brahman or God and become megalomaniac. Trust me, I have seen it happen! I call that ego inflation. That's what occurs when someone becomes aware of their identity with the Divine on the egotistic level only. That is, when they have not sufficiently transcended the ego in order to become truly aware of their greater identity. An identity that goes infinitely beyond the egotistical self.

 

It's as though the individual is merged with Brahma at some deeper level. Understanding this is a reason for deep joy rather than for cocky pride, however. Remember that everybody is one with Brahman on a deeper level. So becoming aware of your identity with Brahman is becoming aware of your identity with everybody and everything else, essentially.

 

Tat tvam asi.

 

 

[sustainablefarm86]

Sorry this is what I don't understand of y'all

 

some will say "you are already it but you need to be aware of it"

(not targeting you exactly, Lasksmi)

 

Why meditate and why train?

 

What's the goal?

 

Is realizing and being "awakened" a goal different than building a dan and all that other shiz?

are they exclusive things?

 

Do you need to realize that youre It first and then your body receives the signals from mother ship and voila your body is now changing to what it was to be?

 

Is that phrase "you are already it but you need to be aware of it" misleading in our language, meaning, it makes it seem like you don't need to do any training, but you actually need either way because if not then you die after all, poofffff...?
 

 

 

 

[Lakshmi]

3 minutes ago, King Jade said:

Sorry this is what I don't understand of y'all

 

some will say "you are already it but you need to be aware of it"

(not targeting you exactly, Lasksmi)

 

Why meditate and why train?

 

What's the goal?

 

Is realizing and being "awakened" a goal different than building a dan and all that other shiz?

are they exclusive things?

 

Do you need to realize that youre It first and then your body receives the signals from mother ship and voila your body is now changing to what it was to be?

 

Is that phrase "you are already it but you need to be aware of it" misleading in our language, meaning, it makes it seem like you don't need to do any training, but you actually need either way because if not then you die after all, poofffff...?
 

 

 

 

 

It's more about the basic understanding that you are not to try and become something other than yourself. On the deepest level.

 

That is, if you are so inclined. There is no 'need to'.

 

Any insights occur quite naturally when you are ready for them. And when they do, they will be far deeper than any intellectual concept of you being 'this' or being 'that' anyway.