Perfection is achieved when there is nothing left to take away

[freeform]

1 hour ago, wandelaar said:

I am sick and tired of this talk about enlightenment that may or may not happen and can even result in meditation sickness and/or spiritual arrogance. I don't need the first prize and would be quite happy with the second or third prize that are much easier to get.

 

Why are you getting sick and tired of it?

[wandelaar]

For my answer read the part of the quote that follows upon "I am sick and tired of". It's already there.

 

Edited February 11, 2019 by wandelaar

[Patrick Brown]

I think it depends on what you think perfection is? Perhaps one first has to 'realise' what perfection is or means and then start perfecting? Of course the process of perfecting oneself should lead to greater and greater bliss otherwise what's the point? 

 

So here's your to do list:

1. Realise the need
2. Create the plan
3. And do the work
4. Repeat 1, 2, 3 eternally 

This feeds back on itself as a process of learning until you get the hang of it and then it becomes a lifestyle albeit an enlightened lifestyle. 

 

And for the record there is such a thing as enlightenment. Oh and it's very simple which is why some have always discovered/realised it but don't worry it's not a big deal.  

 

[wandelaar]

As I said before I think that the term "perfection" is misleading. Perfection is a form of extremism, and Lao tzu's Taoism is against all extremes. Lao tzu rather promotes knowing and being content with enough.

 

A good modern book against perfectionism is this one: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0996435409/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_bibl_vppi_i2

 

 

[Patrick Brown]

3 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

Lao tzu rather promotes knowing and being content with enough.

 

Yep "a wise man knows when enough is enough therefore he always has enough".

 

Perfection probably isn't the best word. 

[OldDog]

7 hours ago, freeform said:

What im getting at is that I don’t believe that any undertaking is available to all. Not even factory work. Let alone the absolute peak of human achievement.

 

I don't mean to imply that no effort is needed to realize the Dao, if that is what we choose to call enlightenment. But occupations like surgery, brick masonry and factory work ... these are specialized skills that presume not only basic human functionality but a degree of technical knowledge ... some occupations more than others. They involve dealing with the world of the myriad things.

 

These occupations are all worthwhile pursuits in such a world. But consider the butcher, the bellstand carver and other such characters from Zhuangzi. They all had occupations. What was it that made them outstanding in their occupations? Seems like it was something more than the accumulation technical knowledge in dealing with things. The lessons from Zhuangzi suggest ... quite strongly suggest ... that there was an internal quality ... realization? ... that allowed them to really excel in their craft. That seems to be fundamental to the human condition. It only needs to be accessed.

 

I quite literally take it that the Dao is present in all things. The clues to realizing the Dao are found in the ancient texts and consist of practices that are fairly simple and accessible to all. 

[OldDog]

9 hours ago, freeform said:

Regarding a ‘simple life’... A mountain goat herder for example.

 

This is really a great example.

 

It shows that part of living is necessarily involved with mastering the world of the myriad things ... however technically complex they may be ... whichever direction we choose ... brain surgery or goat herding.

 

Humans are really good at mastering technologically complex occupations ... but not so good at mastering the self. 

 

Where crafters like butchers, bellstand carvers ... surgeons and goatherds ... really excel is where they have gotten in touch with something deep inside that is fundamental that guides their craft.

 

How much difference is their between a scalpel and a cleaver.

[OldDog]

2 hours ago, wandelaar said:

... the term "perfection" is misleading ...

 

Yes, its artificial. It's unattainable. 

 

Having attained "perfection" can one not continually imagine one step beyond? The goal will always shift.

 

But even more pernicious is when the goal becomes the reason for doing. 

[wandelaar]

39 minutes ago, OldDog said:

But even more pernicious is when the goal becomes the reason for doing. 

 

Exactly! The thing that sets Chuang tzu's craftsmen apart from the ordinary craftsmen is their ability to accomplish their task without them seeing the task as directed by some (important) goal. They have to let go of all thoughts of success or failure that only hinder the free expression of their technical mastery. As soon as they frame the work as some kind of test, then egocentric concerns will begin to obstruct the work. It has to be done wu wei.

 

Edited February 11, 2019 by wandelaar

[Fa Xin]

1 hour ago, wandelaar said:

 

Exactly! The thing that sets Chuang tzu's craftsmen apart from the ordinary craftsmen is their ability to accomplish their task without them seeing the task as directed by some (important) goal. They have to let go of all thoughts of success or failure that only hinder the free expression of their technical mastery. As soon as they frame the work as some kind of test, then egocentric concerns will begin to obstruct the work. It has to be done wu wei.

 

 

How to get to this point ?

[wandelaar]

11 minutes ago, Fa Xin said:

How to get to this point ?

 

Very good question. The modern research on flow and attention will probably be relevant here. I have read some great articles about this, and I still have some books to read on the subject. Working on it!

[freeform]

26 minutes ago, Fa Xin said:

 

How to get to this point ?

 

Exactly.

 

The first part of the first verse of the DDJ can be translated as “the Dao that can be walked is not the eternal Dao”

 

There are obviously many layers of meaning (which is what makes it such a magical text)

 

On one layer, what it’s saying here is that if you want to achieve Dao then you have to walk the path - and walking the path by definition can’t be Dao.

 

You have to do non-Dao to get to Dao.

 

You have to put in effort to achieve effortlessness.

 

It’s a paradox - but it clearly makes sense.

 

Butcher Ding had to learn and perfect his craft for many years before he could effortlessly do his work. It wasn’t a quality in him already. It is gong. Skill achieved through long term effort.

[Fa Xin]

I wonder if getting to that point is like a process of elimination. Like you try everything else first, then at the end your left with nothing except to just be. A sort of giving up, but one that comes quite naturally after exhausting all other avenues. That’d be nice, simply because it would fit with the theme of the original post. 

[s1va]

36 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

 

Very good question. The modern research on flow and attention will probably be relevant here. I have read some great articles about this, and I still have some books to read on the subject. Working on it!

 

I feel that transmission from a teacher or a divine being is needed in order to get to this point.  Books and articles may indicate or point to what it is, but cannot take someone there.  Individual effort no matter the type of practices or methods can also go only so far!  At some point -- generally after the opening of the heart -- we let go and surrender to the divine, and get carried into this new territory effortlessly.

[freeform]

1 hour ago, s1va said:

I feel that transmission from a teacher or a divine being is needed in order to get to this point.

 

Thats also my understanding.

 

Although this isn’t likely to appeal to wandelaar

[OldDog]

1 hour ago, Fa Xin said:

wonder if getting to that point is like a process of elimination

 

I think so ... in a couple of senses. 

 

Daoist meditative practice includes the shutting down of the discriminating mind ... letting sensory input pass without giving it any attention ... elimination of thoughts ... until all that is left is the mind within the mind. Perhaps that which remains is Dao itself.

 

Such meditation does two things. One, it puts you in contact with something fundamental which changes your perspective, how you see things. But also, through the practice of meditation you become adept at eliminating distractions.

 

Then, in the world, when you need to act, you have both the ability focus and the perspective to see the way. You can then approach being like butcher Ding or the bellstand carver and ... do without doing. 

 

Of course, this is all just one way of looking at it.

 

[wandelaar]

19 minutes ago, freeform said:

Although this isn’t likely to appeal to wandelaar

 

Indeed! I'm not dogmatic about it, but in general I only give up trying after I have done my very best to rationally understand some thing and failed. At this point I consider it very likely that wu wei can be rationally understood, and as you can see in the above discussion we have already made some progress.

[s1va]

16 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

 

Indeed! I'm not dogmatic about it, but in general I only give up trying after I have done my very best to rationally understand some thing and failed. At this point I consider it very likely that wu wei can be rationally understood, and as you can see in the above discussion we have already made some progress.

 

I don't think it is about giving up our practices, methods, rationality or any of the actual activities that we do.  One need not give up any of this and all of this can add value depending on where we are.  I wouldn't advise anyone to give up anything.  The only thing that we give up when we surrender is the mental striving, the obsession of the mind to 'solve' and find answers, and to be in an acceptance mode.  This opens us up to receive the divine grace.

[wandelaar]

39 minutes ago, s1va said:

The only thing that we give up when we surrender is the mental striving, the obsession of the mind to 'solve' and find answers, and to be in an acceptance mode.  This opens us up to receive the divine grace.

 

I also think that that is an essential aspect of wu wei, except that there is no divine grace involved. It is rather like dancing to the kind of music you like, you just have to give yourself over to the music and let your body move with it. I did that a lot when I was young.

[Fa Xin]

The journey is the destination wooo wooo

[freeform]

Just to add a small point regarding ‘Wu wei’.

 

I believe that in the Daoist (not Confucian or Mencius’) use of the term they only talk about ‘wei wu wei’ (correct me if I’m wrong).

 

The reason that’s important is because it points to ‘effortless action’ - not just effortlessness or spontaneity.

 

And that’s the case in authentic Qigong. One doesn’t lead Qi directly (with imagination or focused intention) but sets up the conditions for it to move of its own accord. Just as you wouldn’t ‘make’ a flower grow - you’d prepare the ground, fertilise the soil, pull weeds and irrigate - and the flower grows of its own accord.

 

In the same way one has to build skill into their body-mind and once that’s been achieved you let go of contrived action and enter the state of effortless action where the skill manifests as wei wu wei.

 

If you don’t set up the conditions. If you don’t acquire the skill. Effortless action will not manifest. There is no magical butchering ability inherent in Ding.

[rideforever]

Wu wei is not the cessation of activity, but the beginning of effortless intelligent activity of the Dantien, that comes from deep training .... that is according to the book Chen by Silberstorff.  You don't get something for nothing.

 

The destination is the origin in the sense that you bring into life potentialities that exist within you.   But if you do not do the work of bringing them to life, they may as well not have existed.

 

 

Edited February 13, 2019 by rideforever

[rideforever]

"I don't understand what people are doing, out here".   Diana Laurence

 

Seems she no longer lives there.

 

 

[rideforever]

A more sustainable way of living.

I lived like this for a time in India, but I wouldn't know where to go to make this permanent, I don't know where this could be done.