Ah, it's the same old...

[Starjumper]

Hi Lin, your last post is a little confusing, i think you need to edit in some quote marks.

 

Peace to you,

Starjumper

Edited February 24, 2008 by Starjumper7

[Satori]

Hi Lin, your last post is a little confusing, i think you need to edit in some quote marks.

 

Peace to you,

Starjumper

Lin is closer to the truth and clearly the wiser mind in this debate...and he didn't have to knock anyone down and pummle them with uppercuts to do it.

[Starjumper]

Don't hurt yourself there, little feller.

[林愛偉]

Hi Lin, your last post is a little confusing, i think you need to edit in some quote marks.

 

Peace to you,

Starjumper

 

 

Thank you brother. I took out my response to you from your quoted post.

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

[Satori]

Don't hurt yourself there, little feller.

Always with the aggression. You aren't fooling anyone with your tough talk and you don't stand up intellectually to 90% of the people here.

 

I guess the aggression is your way of compensating for your lack of experience. I suppose you drive a BIG truck too to make for that child's sized penis you most likely sport.

 

FYI, I am 6' 5" and 240 lbs.

 

Bring it pee-wee.

[Starjumper]

Always with the aggression. You aren't fooling anyone with your tough talk and you don't stand up intellectually to 90% of the people here.

 

I guess the aggression is your way of compensating for your lack of experience. I suppose you drive a BIG truck too to make for that child's sized penis you most likely sport.

 

Alright!! I haven't had a conversation this mature for years, keep guessing there, little one ...

 

Make sure to not look in the mirror either. ROFL

 

There were Bodhisattvas in the past who would teach reaching bliss states as an expedient means to attaining enlightenment. Reaching the bliss states with a compassionate mind eradicates bad karma and thus clears the mind so one attains virtue and enough merit to attain enlightenment eventually.

 

It is but one of the many expedients to see clearly, as long as there is no attachment, reaching, grasping to the states attained. Theravadan Buddhists teach the Jhanas as a means to attain enlightenment, yet also advise the non-attaching of states as a foundation.

 

I agree with this. Attachment to bliss states is meaningless, they are just something to enjoy, I call it frosting.

 

Not difficult to explain at all. It may seem vague, and difficult to understand. That is fine because that is only as much as the capacity of the perceiver's mind can conceive.

 

Stop putting a head ontop of a head here. "My version of enlightenment is better than yours" talk only confuses people, and steers them further down the defiled path. Enlightenment is enlightenment regardless of what it is labeled. It is much better to cultivate and attain, than talk about it, not cultivate it, and never attain it. This is why there is no need to stick to a definition of something that gets covered with more intellectualism.

If enlightenment is a state, then it is only passing, and not complete proper enlightenment; Anuttura Samyak Sambodhi.

 

Simply said:

 

Talking about enlightenment is the same as talking about eating. You don't get full from talking about food.

 

Yes, talking about it is pretty silly for reasons you state, however this is what forums are for is talk, often silly talk .... and people did ask questions.

 

FYI, I am 6' 5" and 240 lbs.

 

Lots of big rolls of fat?

Edited February 24, 2008 by Starjumper7

[Satori]

Alright!! I haven't had a conversation this mature for years, keep guessing there, little one ...

 

Make sure to not look in the mirror either. ROFL

Hey, my pleasure there, cupcake.

 

You know I'm just jacking with you because I like guys like you.

Edited February 24, 2008 by Satori

[mat black]

Can a consensus ever be arrived at as to the definintion of enlightenment? It seems to me to be all and nothing, other than that adjectives seem to fall short

I like master Sosan's take on it. Every verse is full of enlightenment. Dive in..............

 

FAITH MIND

Sosan Zenji (Seng-Tsan) - the 3rd Zen Patriarch

 

The Great Way is not difficult

for those who have no preferences

 

When love and hate are both absent

everything becomes clear and undisguised

 

Make the smallest distinction however

and heaven and earth are set infinitely apart

 

If you wish to see the truth

then hold no opinions for or against anything

 

To set-up what you like against what

you dislike is the disease of the mind

 

When the deep meaning of things is not understood

the mind's essential peace is disturbed to no avail

 

The Way is perfect like vast space

where nothing is lacking and nothing is in excess

 

Indeed, it is due to our choosing to accept or reject

that we do not see the true nature of things

 

Live neither in the entanglements of outer things

nor in the inner feelings of emptiness

 

Be serene in the Oneness of things

and such erroneous views will disappear by themselves

 

When you try to stop activity to acheive passivity

your very effort fills you with activity

 

As long as you remain in one extreme or the other

you will never know Oneness

 

Those who do not live in the single Way

fail in both activity and passivity, assertion and denial

 

To deny the reality of things is to miss their reality;

to assert the emptiness of things is to miss their reality

 

The more you talk and think about it

the further astray you wander from the truth

 

Stop talking and thinking

and there is nothing you will not be able to know

 

To return to the root is to find the meaning

but to pursue appearance is to miss the source

 

At the moment of inner enlightenment

there is a going beyond appearance and emptiness

 

The changes that appear to occur in the empty world

we call real only because of our ignorance

 

Do not search for the truth

only cease to cherish opinions

 

Do not remain in a dualistic state

avoid such pursuits carefully

 

If there is even a trace of this and that, of right and wrong,

the Mind-essence will be lost in confusion

 

Although all dualities come from the One

do not be attached even to the One

 

When the mind exists undisturbed in the Way

nothing in the world can offend

 

And when things can no longer offend

it ceases to exist in the old way

 

When no discriminating thoughts arise

the old mind ceases to exist

 

When thought objects vanish, the thinking subject vanishes

as when the mind vanishes, objects vanish

 

Things are objects because of the subject (mind)

the mind (subject) is such because of things (object)

 

Understand the relativity of these two

and the basic reality: the unity of emptiness

 

In this Emptiness the two are indistinguishable

and each contains in itself the whole world

 

If you do not discriminate between coarse and fine

you will not be tempted to prejudice and opinion

 

To live in the Great Way

is neither easy nor difficult

 

But those with limited views

are fearful and irresolute

 

The faster they hurry, the slower they go

and clinging (attachment) cannot be limited

 

Even to be attached to the idea of enlightenment

is to go astray

 

Just let things be in their own way

and there will be neither coming nor going

 

Obey the nature of things (your own nature)

and you will walk freely and undisturbed

 

When thought is in bondage the truth is hidden

for everything is murky and unclear

 

And the burdensome practise of judging

brings annoyance and weariness

 

What benefit can be derived

from distinctions and separations?

 

If you wish to move in the One Way,

do not dislike even the world of senses and ideas

 

Indeed, to accept them fully

is identical with true Enlightenment

 

The wise man strives to no goals

but the foolish man fetters himself

 

There is one Dharma, not many;

distinctions arise from the clinging needs of the ignorant

 

To seek Mind with the (discriminating) mind

is the greatest of all mistakes

 

Rest and unrest derive from passion,

with enlightenment there is no liking or disliking

 

All dualities come from ignorant inference

they are like dreams or flowers in the air

 

Foolish to try to grasp them

 

Gain and loss, right and wrong,

such thoughts must finally be abolished at once

 

If the eye never sleeps

all dreams will naturally cease

 

If the mind makes no discriminations

the ten thousand things are as they are - of single essence

 

To understand the mystery of this One essence

is to be released from all entanglements

 

When all things are seen equally

the timeless Self-essence is reached

 

No comparisons or analogies are possible

in this causeless, relationless state

 

Consider movement stationary,

and the stationary in motion

 

Both movement and rest disappear

when such dualities cease to exist

 

Oneness itself cannot exist,

to this ultimate finality no law or description applies

 

For the unified mind in accord with the Way

all self-centered striving ceases

 

Doubts and irresolutions vanish

and life in true faith is possible

 

With a single stroke we are free from bondage

nothing clings to us and we hold to nothing

 

All is empty, clear, self-illumination

with no exertion of the mind's power

 

Here thought, feeling, knowledge and imagination are of no value

in this world of Suchness there is neither self nor other than self

 

To come directly into harmony with this reality

just simply say when doubt arises: "Not two"

 

In this "not two" nothing is separate, nothing is excluded

no matter when or where, enlightenment means entering this truth

 

And this truth is beyond extension or diminution in time or space

in it a single thought is ten thousand years

 

Emptiness here, Emptiness there...

but the infinite universe stands always before your eyes

 

Infinitely large and infinitely small, no difference

for definitions have vanished and no boundaries are seen

 

So too with Being and non-Being

Don't waste time in doubts and arguments that have nothing to do with this

 

One thing, all things:

move along and intermingle without distinction

 

To live in this realization

is to be without anxiety about non-perfection

 

To live in this faith is the road to non-duality

Because the non-dual is one with the trusting mind

 

Words !

The Way is beyond language

 

For in it there is

no yesterday

no tommorrow

no today

 

 

VERSES ON THE FAITH MIND

by Seng-Tsan, the third Zen Patriarch.

Translated by Ricahard B. Clarke.

Edited February 24, 2008 by mat black

[林愛偉]

Can a consensus ever be arrived at as to the definintion of enlightenment? It seems to me to be all and nothing, other than that adjectives seem to fall short

I like master Sosan's take on it. Every verse is full of enlightenment. Dive in..............

 

FAITH MIND

Sosan Zenji (Seng-Tsan) - the 3rd Zen Patriarch

 

 

 

 

HAHAHAHA Wonderful!

Edited February 24, 2008 by 林愛偉

[Stigweard]

I like master Sosan's take on it. Every verse is full of enlightenment. Dive in..............

 

FAITH MIND

Sosan Zenji (Seng-Tsan) - the 3rd Zen Patriarch

 

 

Ain't that the absolute truth ... hang on no it's not they're just words ... wait ... thought I had it for a moment ... nope ... sorry ... it's gone

 

Hahahahahahaa

 

Aren't we just so humorous with our controlled folly.

 

Thanks Mat

[林愛偉]

Alright!! I haven't had a conversation this mature for years, keep guessing there, little one ...

 

Make sure to not look in the mirror either. ROFL

I agree with this. Attachment to bliss states is meaningless, they are just something to enjoy, I call it frosting.

Yes, talking about it is pretty silly for reasons you state, however this is what forums are for is talk, often silly talk .... and people did ask questions.

Lots of big rolls of fat?

 

 

The point was that it is better to cultivate to attain enlightenment than talk about enlightenment when we don't know what it is unless we are enlightened. Then at that point, what's the point of talking about it?

 

 

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

Edited February 24, 2008 by 林愛偉

[forestofsouls]

The point was that it is better to cultivate to attain enlightenment than talk about enlightenment when we don't know what it is unless we are enlightened. Then at that point, what's the point of talking about it?

 

My impression is that the goal defines the methods, and if one does not have a clear goal, then one will be stumbling around blindly in the dark. Perhaps we need a target until we discover there is no target.

[joeblast]

It seems as though the best any of us can do with respect to this is point truthfully in the proper direction, as none of us knows where it ultimately goes

 

 

Mat...awesome, thanks!

Edited February 24, 2008 by joeblast

[三江源]

.

Edited March 23, 2015 by 三江源

[Adam West]

yerrsss, But. This was probably a sophisticated back in the days beofre plumbing and all. In the here and now, we cannot pretend to un- know many psychoanalytical concepts. They are part of the fabric of our minds:

 

ego

superego

id

persona

facade

schizoid split

and so it goes on.

 

If we ask ourselves this question, we dont penetrate from surface down to to the depth, we encounter layers along the way that our culture loves to excavate. And they are great places to get stuck.

Actually I only wrote that post because I was thinking of Satori, with his big rolls of fat, jacking with Starjumper, whom he likes.

Nice image. thanks guys.

*stares out of window in a daze*

 

Indeed! That's why, I would suggest, so few have historically realized their true nature - enlightenment, if you like.

 

Mostly, we spend out lives stuck in the detritus of consciousness...

 

In kind regards,

 

Adam.

[三江源]

.

Edited March 23, 2015 by 三江源

[林愛偉]

My impression is that the goal defines the methods, and if one does not have a clear goal, then one will be stumbling around blindly in the dark. Perhaps we need a target until we discover there is no target.

 

 

 

The goal would be to attain enlightenment. The methods thereof must lead one to that point. I agree with you.

 

It is the thinking of enlightenment to be one thing, and when one doesn't reach the expectation, thoguht, of what they assumed it to be, read it to be, they find themselves on an endless journey.

 

Pointers along the way would be a safer way.

I was just putting out a caution.

 

Peace,

Lin

 

My sense is that this question has been appropriated by the popular culture, and is used as the very epitome of circular navel gazing that doesnt get beyond itself, simply BECAUSE it involves the very concept of "I" - which, in this age of narcissism, is endlessly engrossing to so many.

Interesting isnt it.

 

Self knowledge is actually a good thing. And so is introspection. And if we dont have a secure sense of ourselves, we are certainly too fearful to Let Go.

With regards to "enlightenment'... I dont think we actually have a consensus on what constitutes 'being enlightenened'... or even if that phrase is appropriate. Once again we are led astray by the fact that we are using the same word.

 

We each have our experiences and beliefs about it. Anf they vary a lot, and once again, we are protective and precious about our beliefs.

 

Our treasured beliefs, which we love...

 

 

[Satori]

Actually I only wrote that post because I was thinking of Satori, with his big rolls of fat, jacking with Starjumper, whom he likes.

Nice image. thanks guys.

*stares out of window in a daze*

Like him, hell! It is much more than that. You may have been taken by his BS first but from now on he's my cupcake. He hits attraction buttons on me (like he did to you) that fall below my conscious radar and before I realize it, I AM RESPONDING.

 

I can't help myself.

 

Regrettably, I don't actually have the fat but I am willing to let the muscle go soft if that's what he would prefer, because I just love the way he beats others of greater intelligence and experience down with his never witty, yet always macho keyboard strokes.

 

It is a good cover up. I almost forget the point he is failing to make and instead find myself buying his line of agro-debate based solely upon my emotion reaction to his manly views. I think I just need his Yang all over me. It fills my void.

 

He's the self-proclaimed White knight/light of Taoism.

 

His elevated position can only provide us guidance through the labyrinth we are so myopically trapped within. I hope he can save us all from bein stoopid more.

[三江源]

.

Edited March 23, 2015 by 三江源

[mYTHmAKER]

YEEHAW! I feel a party comin' on!

 

 

Cat which one is you

[三江源]

.

Edited March 23, 2015 by 三江源

[Starjumper]

Actually I only wrote that post because I was thinking of Satori, with his big rolls of fat, jacking with Starjumper, whom he likes.

Nice image. thanks guys.

*stares out of window in a daze*

Like him, hell! It is much more than that. You may have been taken by his BS first but from now on he's my cupcake. He hits attraction buttons on me (like he did to you) that fall below my conscious radar and before I realize it, I AM RESPONDING.

 

I can't help myself.

 

Regrettably, I don't actually have the fat but I am willing to let the muscle go soft if that's what he would prefer, because I just love the way he beats others of greater intelligence and experience down with his never witty, yet always macho keyboard strokes.

 

It is a good cover up. I almost forget the point he is failing to make and instead find myself buying his line of agro-debate based solely upon my emotion reaction to his manly views. I think I just need his Yang all over me. It fills my void.

 

That was interesting, I just got this image of a muscular gay guy, keep in mind I'm not saying Satori is that way {{{makes waffling motion with hand}}}, it's just that I got this image of a big muscular policeman party stripper type gay guy and he was looking at me in an amorous manner.

 

Now that was scarey!

Edited February 25, 2008 by Starjumper7

[mYTHmAKER]

good question mYTHmAKER!

 

I shall ponder that at some length......

 

 

Hint - the one with the moustache in the background ?

[mYTHmAKER]

Can a consensus ever be arrived at as to the definintion of enlightenment? It seems to me to be all and nothing, other than that adjectives seem to fall short

I like master Sosan's take on it. Every verse is full of enlightenment. Dive in..............

 

FAITH MIND

Sosan Zenji (Seng-Tsan) - the 3rd Zen Patriarch

 

VERSES ON THE FAITH MIND

by Seng-Tsan, the third Zen Patriarch.

Translated by Ricahard B. Clarke.

 

 

Thanks Matt

[WhiteTiger]

Beware of people who discredit experiences and who instead point back to the mind, they are the ones that are having trouble with the concepts while the shaman simply basks in the beingness of it.

 

I don't mean to be mean Lin, But StarJumper, from his description of him unable to define (what he means by) Bliss, and Enlightenment, already shows he has problems with the idea at hand.

 

This is because he chooses to talk about it (which of course words can not make up for experiences, but if the person we are talking to has experienced it in our life and can understand it from our own experience we can learn the real knowledge involved) only point to talking about such things... other then that to get an idea about something, which could at any moment be false. SO that can not be solely relied on)

 

The fact that Lin stated that one can not define it means he has not experienced it... there for he can not talk about the sensations of it. He might have glimpses into it, from concepts he has read, tried to understand and heard from others, but like I said this doesn't count 100% because there is a chance of it being false.

 

Lin, you have spent lots of time with these sorts of things. I applaud you for how well you describe experiences but this is one you, for whatever reason either don't know or purposely not telling us. Which makes you look bad in a if you compare it to the brightest purist light.

 

StarJumper, thanks again for defining what you mean, I understand what your talking about but have not experienced it... so this is were my experience falls.