Ah, it's the same old...

[Stigweard]

StarJumper, thanks again for defining what you mean, I understand what your talking about but have not experienced it... so this is were my experience falls.

 

Actually ... by admitting that you yourself have not experienced 'it' automatically disqualifies you from passing judgement on who has or has not experienced 'it'.

 

SJ makes claims of an experience and says that it is 'it' yet the TTC tells us that the 'one who knows speaks not, whilst the one speaks knows not.'

 

So by the mere fact that Lin refrains from describing 'it' and says that 'it' cannot be put into words automatically gives him the higher probability that he actually has experienced 'it'.

 

ROFL aren't we funny critters

 

PS What, by the way, is the 'it' we are talking about? .... hehehe

[WhiteTiger]

This is because he chooses to talk about it (which of course words can not make up for experiences, but if the person we are talking to has experienced it in our life and can understand it from our own experience we can learn the real knowledge involved) only point to talking about such things... other then that to get an idea about something, which could at any moment be false. SO that can not be solely relied on)

 

I just gave some really good important wisdom right here... how the hell are people missing this? I mean its not like most of you guys don't understand what I'm saying. Some of you guys can actually put it in to better words then I (at least thats what i believe) But HONESTLY!, you continue to contradict yourself.

 

Talking about these things but going back and forth saying words can not properly describe these things... sure this is true... the art with words lie the ability to use vocabulary is such a art (the study of language and a creative way of using the words well together is how that is defined)... many people can pride themselves on this ability (yes i don't believe i'm that good at it) but if that pride is any sort of ego you got a problem. (doesn't directly attack anyone by directly pointing out but common guys figure it out).

 

Here i'll go first I HAVE EGO! I WORK WITH IT EVERY DAY TRYING TO FIX IT, TO NOT GET STUCK ON ILLUSION. MOST LIKELY CAUSED BY MY OWN EGO!

 

But if through words we can understand personal experiences that do properly convey (to some level, which is blinded by words, so understanding one another is very important... which means we personally have to define what we mean when we say certain words I.E. different peoples definition of enlightenment. this is because there might only be one true definition but if another person doesn't have the same definition (meaning there talking about something different) I, and i hope others would like to know. To understand what one talks about rather how well they put something into words is a TAOIST TRAIT, (not saying others don't practice it also... i think all people whom meditate would for the most part practice this) also found in many people who have much wisdom or have experienced much, I'm sure many Buddhists practice this too.

 

Its one thing to say someone is incorrect (personally i normally look at that online as bashing other people) while on the other hand its another situation if you point out a flaw... if the person is sensitive, please say so... SO i can go about it in a much more nicer way with words... (or gosh even give me some flack about it)

 

Ok yes, i dislike Starjumper bashing everyone... i honestly think its propaganda to try and get others clouded mentally in anger, and/or trying to get lots attracted to what he says. While if the readers can take a step back and listen its a smart strategy, otherwise its stupid. It depends on the reader. This is where the problem falls. Sorry, StarJumper, no harmful feeling meant by this. But thats honestly how i view the way you act... or at least the reason you act.

[WhiteTiger]

Edited February 25, 2008 by WhiteTiger

[Starjumper]

SJ makes claims of an experience and says that it is 'it' yet the TTC tells us that the 'one who knows speaks not, whilst the one speaks knows not.'

 

So by the mere fact that Lin refrains from describing 'it' and says that 'it' cannot be put into words automatically gives him the higher probability that he actually has experienced 'it'.

 

That's what you got out of it? Well this is what really happened, according to me:

 

I remember Lin describing it in some detail already (in the alchemy and enlightenment thread), and I only said you need to define what you are talking about, since there are two kinds of enlightenment. You can check it, it's still there. There's the enlightenment experience (the big one) which I did NOT describe, and then there's what you could call an enlightened mental state, which Lin described. So sifu, you missed my point which is no dounbt my fault, but I didn't describe either one of those states. I don't need to describe them since there are plenty of stories in the ancient literature, in Zen literature for example, that describes both the experience and the mental state in good detail, so I guess some people do break the law of can't tell, don't they?

 

But like Lin said, the important thing isn't describing an experience that no one can relate to, it's describing the path to get there.

 

I just felt that a couple of Lins minor points were a little off.

Edited February 25, 2008 by Starjumper7

[WhiteTiger]

The point was that it is better to cultivate to attain enlightenment than talk about enlightenment when we don't know what it is unless we are enlightened. Then at that point, what's the point of talking about it?

 

 

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

 

Very smart... but you said "Then at that point, what's the point of talking about it?" MANY REASONS to help out others to teach others to grow and so forth. Make the world a better place... i understand you comment was referring to yourself strictly...

 

Lin are you saying you just want to be a Cival person, and not a good person. What i mean cival conduct yourself well and by a good person you help out others?

[林愛偉]

Edited February 25, 2008 by 林愛偉

[Stigweard]

That's what you got out of it? So sifu, you missed my point which is no dounbt my fault, but I didn't describe either one of those states.

 

 

HAHAHAHAHAAA .... my bad ... aren't our minds sly things ... I have declared a difference between you and Lin and gave my preference to Lin. I really am sincerely sorry.

 

Please forgive me and do ignore my self importance.

 

*bows and leaves the room to make some chai*

[林愛偉]

[dao zhen]

I agree with Lin.

 

I once asked an accomplished human about immortals, buddhas, how long it takes to gain enlightenment, the various realms.......

 

His reply............

 

"Do not think about or desire to meet an Immortal or a Buddha. Do not seek for an enlightened master. If you have the thought or a desire to seek for an enlightened master, you have already become lost....... You are seeking outside of yourself. The only thought you should have is you, yourself becoming an Immortal. You yourself becoming a Buddha. You gaining Union with Tao through your own self efforts in cultivation. Now go and practice........."

 

Now lets go and practice..........

 

Much love and peace, dao zhen

[林愛偉]

I agree with Lin.

 

I once asked an accomplished human about immortals, buddhas, how long it takes to gain enlightenment, the various realms.......

 

His reply............

 

"Do not think about or desire to meet an Immortal or a Buddha. Do not seek for an enlightened master. If you have the thought or a desire to seek for an enlightened master, you have already become lost....... You are seeking outside of yourself. The only thought you should have is you, yourself becoming an Immortal. You yourself becoming a Buddha. You gaining Union with Tao through your own self efforts in cultivation. Now go and practice........."

 

Now lets go and practice..........

 

Much love and peace, dao zhen

 

Dao Zhen Daoyou,

 

I was told the exact same thing from my first teacher as a young child, my sister.

 

Peace and Blessings.

 

You helped me remember what my sister told me a long long long time ago...Thank you.

May the Jade Emperor bestow heavenly blessings upon you.

 

Lin

[WhiteTiger]

[林愛偉]

 

 

I'm not trying to make you look odd honestly... but my observations show that it has put you in not so bright light... thus is why i point it out to you... maybe i did this in a not so smart way. not enough balanced and to much yang. sorry for that... but yes my point is to try and get to yourself in better light and try and learn for yourself not for me hopfully that will happen

Very well said! thanks... i just wanted to know how you define enlightenment... to what exactly you speak of.

 

 

 

I didn't know there was a "good light" around me on this forum. If the proverbial "spotlight" is taken off of me because of expectations from others not met, that is a good thing.

 

But for the sake in which you speak, maybe I have offended people in my postings. I will have to look back and correct any oversights manifest.

 

Thank you for pointing those things out brother.

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

[林愛偉]

Edited February 25, 2008 by 林愛偉

[Starjumper]

 

"Now you are not dead, nevertheless, you know death is miserable. I have seen all Buddhas of the ten directions in space having neither rebirth nor death. I know, therefore, Nirvana is an eternal bliss." The Enlightened One said.

 

If you are saying that enlightenment is when a spirit vanishes into the void then that's cheating, sorry, can't allow that definition. We are concerning our selves with the types of enlightenment while living and how to arrive there. I know I'm in trouble now, at least with all the people that only live in their heads.

[joeblast]

That wasnt what he was saying

 

imho it seems as though enlightenment is a personal experience - i.e. it is subtly different for all that wake up, just as is the causative event. By that rationale, pointing a little peculiarities become relatively meaningless and only a distraction. Seems the only constant is that you will know when it happens. Its like talking about being wet. You want to know? Go get wet!

[林愛偉]

If you are saying that enlightenment is when a spirit vanishes into the void then that's cheating, sorry, can't allow that definition. We are concerning our selves with the types of enlightenment while living and how to arrive there. I know I'm in trouble now, at least with all the people that only live in their heads.

 

 

I wasn't saying that at all. Did you even read the story of the Buddha I posted? The story has its context. The context I was putting out was if you want to know enlightenment, go and practice and stop talking about it.

 

 

That's all.

 

Peace,

Lin

 

That wasnt what he was saying

 

imho it seems as though enlightenment is a personal experience - i.e. it is subtly different for all that wake up, just as is the causative event. By that rationale, pointing a little peculiarities become relatively meaningless and only a distraction. Seems the only constant is that you will know when it happens. Its like talking about being wet. You want to know? Go get wet!

 

 

Exactly, yet the difference is in the method utilizied. Enlightenment is enlightenment anyway you put it.

 

Like another metaphor I wrote earlier, taken from Master Xuan Hua, "You talk about eating, but you aren't getting full. GO and eat!"

 

Instead of talking about what enlightenment is and isn't, go and practice and get enlightened, then teach us how to do it

 

 

Peace,

Lin

Edited February 25, 2008 by 林愛偉

[doc benway]

Can a consensus ever be arrived at as to the definintion of enlightenment?

Excellent selection Matt!

Wow, this topic has grown in the past few days. It'll take some time to read through but here are a few things I'd like to add:

Enlightenment is emotional bliss (greater emotional bliss)...

Nope - emotional bliss (or any other for that matter) is limited and this implies that enlightenment excludes other things.

Enlightenment is easier to speak about in terms of what it is not - it is not bliss though it must include bliss.

 

Also, enlightenment and the different blisses are definitely states that we can experience so your comments about mind and outflow do not apply.

Nope - who is present to experience enlightenment?

It is not an experience as there is no one there to experience anything.

It is not a state as that would imply that it exludes some other state.

 

 

The fact that Lin stated that one can not define it means he has not experienced it... there for he can not talk about the sensations of it. He might have glimpses into it, from concepts he has read, tried to understand and heard from others, but like I said this doesn't count 100% because there is a chance of it being false.

 

Lin, you have spent lots of time with these sorts of things. I applaud you for how well you describe experiences but this is one you, for whatever reason either don't know or purposely not telling us. Which makes you look bad in a if you compare it to the brightest purist light.

WT - All of our experience, every object, action, feeling, emotion, and so on, are interactions of our environment with our nervous system. Imagine everything that you can possibly imagine or think of -absolutely everything. Then imagine everything that you can never possibly think of, every outlandish possibility. Then imagine, if you can, everything that you can neither think of nor NOT think of...

 

Now describe that to me!

 

With all due respect, SJ sounds as if he is reading answers from a book or reciting answers provided by a teacher. I don't mean to be offensive but I wonder how deeply SJ has inquired into these questions for himself? It wasn't long ago that he accused me of mentally jerking off and wasting time on such stupid questions as Who Am I?

Lin sounds as if he is actively working toward answering these questions for himself and has real substance (or void... ).

 

WT - No one can ever show you or teach you what enlightenment is in a meaningful way. No one can help you achieve it beyond encouragement. I believe it is a spark which occurs and grows, irrespective of the method or the guru. It is purely a personal matter. What if I told you it was suddenly looking around and knowing that there is no separation between the organsim that is looking and the environment that is being looked at. The feeling that the organsim is simply a vessel with which creation experiences itself. The feeling that the present moment is all there ever is, was, and will be yet the present moment is absent. None of these words means anything.

 

It is not the result of a method or an effort (although using a method and making effort is an indication that awareness or awakening has chosen to manifest and may ultimately occur).

 

This is why I only asked questions in this thread. I wasn't looking for or expecting answers. I was hoping that people would really look into these questions for themselves. That is the begining of the journey. It is the question that is valuable. Questions are alive, answers are dead. What good are the answers of dead masters? Questions imply possibility and are inclusive, answers exclude. If someone gives you an answer - it is of no value. You must sit with the questions, for a long time, if necessary - or maybe only for an instant but it cannot come from outside.

 

If you see the Buddha in the road, KILL HIM!!! To me, that's what is meant by this saying.

[Stigweard]

IMHO Enlightenment is a very practical path. Excuse re-emphasising a point but the etymology of 'enlightenment' may indeed provide us a pragmatic approach.

 

We seem to talk about the road to get to enlightenment and then we can talk about the effects of enlightenment but quite rightly we stumble when we try to wrap words around what enlightenment actually is.

 

I guess the description you settle on is whatever 'sings in your heart' and gives you impetus to cultivate. As long as one is mindful that the description is not 'it' then progress can be made.

[林愛偉]

Excellent selection Matt!

Wow, this topic has grown in the past few days. It'll take some time to read through but here are a few things I'd like to add:

 

Nope - emotional bliss (or any other for that matter) is limited and this implies that enlightenment excludes other things.

Enlightenment is easier to speak about in terms of what it is not - it is not bliss though it must include bliss.

Nope - who is present to experience enlightenment?

It is not an experience as there is no one there to experience anything.

It is not a state as that would imply that it exludes some other state.

WT - All of our experience, every object, action, feeling, emotion, and so on, are interactions of our environment with our nervous system. Imagine everything that you can possibly imagine or think of -absolutely everything. Then imagine everything that you can never possibly think of, every outlandish possibility. Then imagine, if you can, everything that you can neither think of nor NOT think of...

 

Now describe that to me!

 

With all due respect, SJ sounds as if he is reading answers from a book or reciting answers provided by a teacher. I don't mean to be offensive but I wonder how deeply SJ has inquired into these questions for himself? It wasn't long ago that he accused me of mentally jerking off and wasting time on such stupid questions as Who Am I?

Lin sounds as if he is actively working toward answering these questions for himself and has real substance (or void... ).

 

WT - No one can ever show you or teach you what enlightenment is in a meaningful way. No one can help you achieve it beyond encouragement. I believe it is a spark which occurs and grows, irrespective of the method or the guru. It is purely a personal matter. What if I told you it was suddenly looking around and knowing that there is no separation between the organsim that is looking and the environment that is being looked at. The feeling that the organsim is simply a vessel with which creation experiences itself. The feeling that the present moment is all there ever is, was, and will be yet the present moment is absent. None of these words means anything.

 

It is not the result of a method or an effort (although using a method and making effort is an indication that awareness or awakening has chosen to manifest and may ultimately occur).

 

This is why I only asked questions in this thread. I wasn't looking for or expecting answers. I was hoping that people would really look into these questions for themselves. That is the begining of the journey. It is the question that is valuable. Questions are alive, answers are dead. What good are the answers of dead masters? Questions imply possibility and are inclusive, answers exclude. If someone gives you an answer - it is of no value. You must sit with the questions, for a long time, if necessary - or maybe only for an instant but it cannot come from outside.

 

If you see the Buddha in the road, KILL HIM!!! To me, that's what is meant by this saying.

 

 

What a wonderful explanation of what Kill the Buddha entails. Many people think it means to be in the "violent"mind state of actually killing. They may not actually be visualizing the killing of a Buddha, but there is an anxiousness in their heart when coming across great states of wisdom during sitting.

The simple non-act of non-attaching..haha does wonders. If there was an act, there was someone doing the non-attaching, and thus there was an attachment to a view of a self.

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

[Buddy]

As most have doubtless observed, I'm more in the Vedantist/Buddhist camp if Stevejumper is claiming to have the TRUTH with the ism he's calling Taoism (isn't it daosim?). My training doesn't make that differentiation. Kumar was comfortable studying with gurus and rinpoches.

 

That said, I'm not going to come back with so much piss and vinegar. It's like trying to teach a pig to dance. So I will still have my views and will readily express them. I will just try to do so with somewhat more decorum. No Tom Joad but my own.

 

As far as Stevejumper and his ilk go...I think the complete ego absorption is obvious. As someone who is intimate with it, I feel comfortable with saying so. But I also know that I don't know it all yet. And I'm cool with that.

 

Other than those folks, I won't say if because clearly I have offended some of you and for that I apologize.

 

Stevejumper wrote:

"I think this is a thread that can go over 500 pages, the thread that lasts forever. Long after we're gone the "Ah, it's the same old..." will still be going strong, with it's perfect name and having been started by the poster with the friendly sounding name of Buddy; keeping friendly Buddy's name fresh in the minds of generations of posters."

 

Ah....immortality.

Edited February 25, 2008 by Buddy

[doc benway]

 

Other than those folks, I won't say if because clearly I have offended some of you and for that I apologize.

 

You've never offended me, Buddy.

Look what became of this Frankenstein thread you started!

It's actually taken some cool turns and I've enjoyed it.

Nice to see you back checking it out.

It's also nice to see a new and gentler you!

[Buddy]

I'm turning over a new leaf, dog!

[Onigiri]

 

WT - No one can ever show you or teach you what enlightenment is in a meaningful way. No one can help you achieve it beyond encouragement. I believe it is a spark which occurs and grows, irrespective of the method or the guru. It is purely a personal matter. What if I told you it was suddenly looking around and knowing that there is no separation between the organsim that is looking and the environment that is being looked at. The feeling that the organsim is simply a vessel with which creation experiences itself. The feeling that the present moment is all there ever is, was, and will be yet the present moment is absent. None of these words means anything.

 

It is not the result of a method or an effort (although using a method and making effort is an indication that awareness or awakening has chosen to manifest and may ultimately occur).

 

 

I don't pretend to know anything and this hits the nail on the head for me. This is what has happened to me before ANY practice. It's why I wanted to learn more and to start on the road.

 

And Buddy, I too am very glad you're back. This beginner enjoys your posts but wishes for your sake that you wouldn't need to feel the anger. State your case calmly, it's the best you can do. I'm listening

[AugustLeo]

.

[Buddy]

Why ask why?