Humans Without Souls

[Mskied]

I thought it would be fun to organize this into a consensus and we could create some kind of document.

 

Here is my take on a soul.

 

Aside from the obvious observation that most people have senses and language, can we say they have souls?  I think a soul is something that is somehow permanent; something we can associate with the individual person- like saying "They are this or that".  This should be possible for most people, though I have met some people where you cannot expect them to be the same thing twice.  Even that is a sort of soul, though, as it is a trait that you can recognize.  My point is that with the need for permanency comes some sort of memory.  It is this memory that we access to progress and change, as we reflect upon our actions and the events around us and draw conclusions.  This is the aspect that I think most people feel is missing when they say "That person is soulless"  That, and probably a lack of compassion.  Compassion only comes from observation of action and its result, and recognizing the fallibility of reason and awareness.  I don't think this is a necessary component to be declared to have a soul, but I would say that if you had the ability to reflect and refine, that you are more in tune with your soul.

 

Is the soul permanent after death?  This would need to be tied to some other worldly environment and a reason for there being one.  If you come to a creator or governing presence, it is easy to explain why a soul might last after life, but without one, it is a matter of science, where some occultists believe that nothing is wasted and nothing dies.  

 

My theory is that if there is a reason for the manifest experience of life, then there is probably a force behind it- and I see it less as a "Do the right thing and earn Heaven" and more of a gathering of other living beings for examination and investigation, and probably companionship.  

[Integrated]

On 8/26/2019 at 5:03 AM, Desmonddf said:

So, while someone with an Awaken Higher Self might find itself receiving a "call" for something, people with those "sleeping" won't feel any call. Won't feel their uniqueness and won't have any kind of "compass" in life. They will live, indeed, as automatons - receiving social, bodily and environmental inputs and simply living to react by them.

 

I'd call that being identified with ones persona.

To just go with the flow with no real stake other than physical and social survival.

 

If I would go as far as saying these people don't have any soul?

I'm unsure, I've never thought about it like that.

 

But right now I think that is a misnomer, though I fully feel the frustration of dealing with such people.

[Desmonddf]

3 hours ago, Integrated said:

 

I'd call that being identified with ones persona.

To just go with the flow with no real stake other than physical and social survival.

 

If I would go as far as saying these people don't have any soul?

I'm unsure, I've never thought about it like that.

 

But right now I think that is a misnomer, though I fully feel the frustration of dealing with such people.

 

Kinda. But not exactly. The Higher Self isn't related to one's ego or inner personas. Someone who looks like they're just following the flow might have a very active Higher Self and someone who looks like they're very edgy and original can be just following their own flows.

 

It boils down to the influences they're on.

[Integrated]

2 hours ago, Desmonddf said:

 

Kinda. But not exactly. The Higher Self isn't related to one's ego or inner personas. Someone who looks like they're just following the flow might have a very active Higher Self and someone who looks like they're very edgy and original can be just following their own flows.

 

It boils down to the influences they're on.

 

Yeah but if they only look as they follow the flow, they do have a real stake.

Hence why it is so hard to judge people on the surface, cause it is hard to know what is actually the case.

 

I doubt that there really are people with "no soul", but that in turn comes from what I view as that word.

I'm not sure if the higher self is the soul for me, I think the higher self transcend the soul.

Which is blasphemy for some people, to view the soul as not the highest inner principle.

But I really do view the soul as something that is very reflective of our flawed nature,

it sort of is the broken glass shards on the floor that necessitates the quick-fix we call ego.

 

 

We obsess over it in the same way as someone who wants to find glue and put it all together.

Which is sort of impossible when there is tons of tiny fragments,

and even the larger fragments are so many that it becomes this crazy difficult puzzle.

[Everything]

On 19-9-2019 at 12:05 AM, Mskied said:

I thought it would be fun to organize this into a consensus and we could create some kind of document.

 

Here is my take on a soul.

 

Aside from the obvious observation that most people have senses and language, can we say they have souls?  I think a soul is something that is somehow permanent; something we can associate with the individual person- like saying "They are this or that".  This should be possible for most people, though I have met some people where you cannot expect them to be the same thing twice.  Even that is a sort of soul, though, as it is a trait that you can recognize.  My point is that with the need for permanency comes some sort of memory.  It is this memory that we access to progress and change, as we reflect upon our actions and the events around us and draw conclusions.  This is the aspect that I think most people feel is missing when they say "That person is soulless"  That, and probably a lack of compassion.  Compassion only comes from observation of action and its result, and recognizing the fallibility of reason and awareness.  I don't think this is a necessary component to be declared to have a soul, but I would say that if you had the ability to reflect and refine, that you are more in tune with your soul.

 

Is the soul permanent after death?  This would need to be tied to some other worldly environment and a reason for there being one.  If you come to a creator or governing presence, it is easy to explain why a soul might last after life, but without one, it is a matter of science, where some occultists believe that nothing is wasted and nothing dies.  

 

My theory is that if there is a reason for the manifest experience of life, then there is probably a force behind it- and I see it less as a "Do the right thing and earn Heaven" and more of a gathering of other living beings for examination and investigation, and probably companionship.  

Your heart is your acces to your soul. 

 

But your soul is not physical. And yet, your are inseperable. Tho, you can think your way into experiencing lesser states of connectivity, and thus lesser states knowingness, as soon as you let go of thinking and trust your heart, you can easily find your way back home to infinite intelligence and eternal wisdom. Because it's actually your natural state of being. You don't even need to accomplish it. Because you are already doing it 24/7.

 

To the degree that you do feel very good emotionally, you also realise that you are. It also feels good, because it is compatible with your true nature. 

[Integrated]

5 hours ago, Everything said:

Your heart is your acces to your soul. 

 

But your soul is not physical. And yet, your are inseperable. Tho, you can think your way into experiencing lesser states of connectivity, and thus lesser states knowingness, as soon as you let go of thinking and trust your heart, you can easily find your way back home to infinite intelligence and eternal wisdom. Because it's actually your natural state of being. You don't even need to accomplish it. Because you are already doing it 24/7.

 

To the degree that you do feel very good emotionally, you also realise that you are. It also feels good, because it is compatible with your true nature. 

 

I do like where you are coming from in terms of heart, and I do agree that at least for me heart and soul is connected.

But how do we really know that everyone else can connect up naturally in the same way?

To me it seems people who have had an intellectual focus would have a very different path to take,

and that heart isn't necessarily something that is accessible right away.

Even though  it surely is happening all the time anyway, the consciousness of the intellectual

need to go through a lot of trials to get there, and the most glaring distraction,

is the hovering just outside of Kethers reach so to speak, intoxicated by being so near, but yet so far away.

Which is of course a trap anyone can fall in.

 

I'd like to say respectfully that from what I've read @Mskied has spent 20 years trying to cross that divide.

That is a long ass time to invest into something.

I think one of the traps off all this is to idealize any part of our being.

It being the higher self, heart, thinking or even the appearance of Malkhuth.

Now from what I've read, he is trying to get rid of thinking and replace it with nothing.

In other words the equivalent of silencing the monkey mind.

But without heart and the ability to connect emotionally to self and others,

then one in my imagination would be left with some numb silence.

If I would classify the situation, I'd say that he has abandoned his soul and the work it entails,

to chase flighty spirits that pop in and out of the abyss.

 

This is just a big assumption on my part, but I cannot really do anything else than point out how things seem to me.

[idiot_stimpy]

The true nature. Its hard know, when nobody is around to show you or point. If the teachers are deluded what hope does one have, but the fortune of coming across someone or something that can convey the teaching.

[Desmonddf]

On 27/09/2019 at 12:34 AM, Integrated said:

 

Yeah but if they only look as they follow the flow, they do have a real stake.

Hence why it is so hard to judge people on the surface, cause it is hard to know what is actually the case.

 

I doubt that there really are people with "no soul", but that in turn comes from what I view as that word.

I'm not sure if the higher self is the soul for me, I think the higher self transcend the soul.

Which is blasphemy for some people, to view the soul as not the highest inner principle.

But I really do view the soul as something that is very reflective of our flawed nature,

it sort of is the broken glass shards on the floor that necessitates the quick-fix we call ego.

 

 

We obsess over it in the same way as someone who wants to find glue and put it all together.

Which is sort of impossible when there is tons of tiny fragments,

and even the larger fragments are so many that it becomes this crazy difficult puzzle.

 

Well, as you said, it has to do with what you call the "soul". If you're going with the definitions Crowley and Blavatsky settled, then there are cases in which the Higher Self "cuts" (not permanently in this world we live, but it works in others) the connection with the Ego and waits for it to die off.

 

My own Higher Self tried to do it, with some serious consequences for my ego in past and on this life as well. It is as if it stopped caring and looking into what the Ego is, effectively looking as if it was detached and had cut off the ego from itself. It seems like it used to work in places others than this planet, in which the ego would simply die off a little after it was cut (especialy in Sitra Achra), but it doesn't work here.

 

The problem is just that the ego, in this world, keeps on living even without the continuous presence of the Higher Self feeding energy and "existence" for it. Sometimes it even manages to get a body through reincarnation, and then we call those "people without souls" (just how I was before my current wife's Higher Self managed to get my own's attention... long story).

 

Blavatsky had a VERY negative view on this theme, but she was just very frustrated in many aspects of life - so that appears on all her works.

 

 

[Integrated]

1 hour ago, Desmonddf said:

 

Well, as you said, it has to do with what you call the "soul". If you're going with the definitions Crowley and Blavatsky settled, then there are cases in which the Higher Self "cuts" (not permanently in this world we live, but it works in others) the connection with the Ego and waits for it to die off.

 

My own Higher Self tried to do it, with some serious consequences for my ego in past and on this life as well. It is as if it stopped caring and looking into what the Ego is, effectively looking as if it was detached and had cut off the ego from itself. It seems like it used to work in places others than this planet, in which the ego would simply die off a little after it was cut (especialy in Sitra Achra), but it doesn't work here.

 

The problem is just that the ego, in this world, keeps on living even without the continuous presence of the Higher Self feeding energy and "existence" for it. Sometimes it even manages to get a body through reincarnation, and then we call those "people without souls" (just how I was before my current wife's Higher Self managed to get my own's attention... long story).

 

Blavatsky had a VERY negative view on this theme, but she was just very frustrated in many aspects of life - so that appears on all her works.

 

 

 

I can see how that cutting off would work yeah.

Being cast out from all grace in a way.

Meaning that all that is left is decay, endings and inability to be balanced.

Then collapsing down into illusion, appearances and inability to change.

 

It somehow seems that the most danger is on either end of the spectrum,

as long as one is pushing past Tifereth, one is negotiating with the higher self,

but if one abandons this negotiation, the self will grow indifferent.

At some point right before Kether, one will have intruded way beyond what the ego can naturally handle,

and it is my guess that the stability of Tifereth is at stake,

as if the beauty of the will must be traded away to cross the abyss.

And in doing so, the whole house of cards collapses, as one immediately rebounds into Malkhuth,

and one basically have to build up again from scratch, as the new will/beauty demands a different tribute.

As for the self, I'm unsure how it would view such an inner trade, if it would be amused, disgusted or indifferent.

 

*Of course this trade implies a death of the ego, so I guess that is the price of touching Kether,

but not only that, but a loss of will.

Edited September 29, 2019 by Integrated

[Desmonddf]

34 minutes ago, Integrated said:

 

I can see how that cutting off would work yeah.

Being cast out from all grace in a way.

Meaning that all that is left is decay, endings and inability to be balanced.

Then collapsing down into illusion, appearances and inability to change.

 

It somehow seems that the most danger is on either end of the spectrum,

as long as one is pushing past Tifereth, one is negotiating with the higher self,

but if one abandons this negotiation, the self will grow indifferent.

At some point right before Kether, one will have intruded way beyond what the ego can naturally handle,

and it is my guess that the stability of Tifereth is at stake,

as if the beauty of the will must be traded away to cross the abyss.

And in doing so, the whole house of cards collapses, as one immediately rebounds into Malkhuth,

and one basically have to build up again from scratch, as the new will/beauty demands a different tribute.

As for the self, I'm unsure how it would view such an inner trade, if it would be amused, disgusted or indifferent.

 

*Of course this trade implies a death of the ego, so I guess that is the price of touching Kether,

but not only that, but a loss of will.

 

 

The Higher Self only exists in Geburah

After Geburah you'll have some higher things. The Ego itself might die at any moment, even when talking with the Higher Self, but as long as it still has something to do on earth, it will just regroup itself.

"Solve et Coagula". You'll reach the heavens once you solve your ego, but then you'll have to coagulate a new one if you want to be here.

 

I sincerely know nothing from Chesed and above. Can't say anything about it

[Integrated]

3 minutes ago, Desmonddf said:

 

 

The Higher Self only exists in Geburah

After Geburah you'll have some higher things. The Ego itself might die at any moment, even when talking with the Higher Self, but as long as it still has something to do on earth, it will just regroup itself.

"Solve et Coagula". You'll reach the heavens once you solve your ego, but then you'll have to coagulate a new one if you want to be here.

 

I sincerely know nothing from Chesed and above. Can't say anything about it

 

Um well okay, I'm a bit unsure of if we have been talking past each other for a while now then, haha.

because if what you call higher self is in Geburah then obviously I was having the wrong idea about some of the things you wrote.

I'm not super versed in this stuff and I tend to think of the self as the whole tree of life, but that is the Jungian frame I guess.

 

But if we are only talking about Geburah as a principle I think I get a semblance of what you are pointing to here.

Though I will need time to process it, and my ramblings with you here is part of that process.

I have like 4 different images of the tree out in front of me to be able to follow along with you haha.

 

I can totally respect feeling the path from Geburah to Chesed being a difficult one.

I'm sort of struggling with wondering in what sense one would be traveling to one or the other.

As I personally feel we jump around all the time through life experiences,

but I have to guess that it is about holding the movement from one sefirot to another in consciousness.

Which is quite different from just occupying it unconsciously because the self wanted a trip there.

This challenges the notions I have about where I am in this tree consciously though.

 

I could say in hindsight that I visited Binah and Hokhmah, but when I think about it,

that was an unconscious mess, and it was certainly not my ego's doing.

Hod is usually a mess also, the whole pillar of severity is messed up.

Though I'd say that I have a pretty firm grip on the pillar of mercy up to Chesed,

and I feel like I'm accessing Geburah at some level from there.

The way I've come to interpret Kabbalah seems to make that possible,

but it is a limited way to live life, I'd admit that.

 

Unless I'm just totally wrong on how I interpret this stuff.

I have much of my basic knowledge of Kaballah from Robert Wang,

and since he links it to Tarot, I can link it up to Jungian archetypes from there.

That gives me a special take on the Kabbalah, and I may be misinterpreting a thing or two from other frames.

As I don't think that everyone has intellectual challenges in the pillar of severeity, and emotional in mercy.

Rather it depends on one's Jungian attitude, which is something I always consider when I learn something spiritual.

If I can't get that to fit, the system seems like garbage to me.

Anyway, regardless how this turns out, I'm thankful for you provoking me to consider these things.

It gives me a new thing to grapple with, I think I will reread Wang before I do anything else here.

So that I'm sure that the things I thought I read actually is the things I read.

[Integrated]

@Desmonddf

I've redrawn one of my charts to reflect your Geburah protest.

In some ways I can see it making more sense.

I've put it over the old one for now,

and I will just have to see if things fall in place more smoothly now.

 

To restate from my new point of view:

 

I have control up to Tifereth from this perspective, Geburah I hate like the plague,

and is no small part why I fly off the handle in certain situations.

Or just get totally shut down.

 

Hmm if this perspective holds,

I have a new tool to measure where I stand in relation to certain pesky Jungian problems.

Oh well time will tell.

[Nungali]

In the Tree of Life, generally, Geburah is a process of organising force (on the way 'down' ) via compression or contraction  and direction and the reverse , on the way 'up' and is a lower reflection of the process of Binah above it .

 

But in human psychology , and using the pattern and energetic relationships of the Tree transposed on to the psyche Geburah 'changes position' . That is becasue, in the human psyche, it is not a direct reflection of the 'cosmic' process .

 

Yes, you CAN use it that way  ;

 

 

This seems a little obscure  ....  the 'shoulder '  ?  

 

or we could get more traditional  ;

 

 

 

But it doesnt solve the problem that in the psyche of Man  'Mars has fallen' so we need to re arrange the Tree so it matches, not the physical arrangement of man but his psychological  arrangement . Then such protests and ideas about Geburah ( when being perceived from the pychological level as opposed to the cosmic level) are solved .

 

To explain better I use the  planets that are attributed to the Sephiroth as these are the modes by which these forces relate and influence us .

 

Mars clearly does not belong (again on the psychological level )   ' up there ' . It is one of the inner planets and they relate to the forces and three main psychological drives of the personality ;  Mercury , Venus and Mars .  Being deep  psychological  drive / forces they are related to the unconscious, whose 'planet'  is the Moon .

 

So I depict the Moon as the centre of that triad  (much as Yesod is in its triangular relationship in The ToL) .  Around the Moon are the three forces and personal planets ; Mars and venus as the obvious 'opposing' base line of the triangle ( fire and water, male and female , Yin and Yang - whatever )  and Mercury above at the apex as the regulator, balancer, redeemer , etc .

 

Now the basic relationship and 'the work' is the unifying of the Sun and Moon

 

 

 

So the Sun sits above this triangle and the relationship to the Moon (inside the triangle of the 3 inner planets ) is through the apex of that triangle - Mercury , who is also the 'Psychopomp', ie, is able to travel and bring communication from the underworld ( the unconscious) to the world ( consciousness) and the heavens (superconsciousness) .

 

Reflected above this ( or the below is a reflection of above , if you prefer ... its actually both - see below) is another triangle that the Sun links to (and all the things the Sun links to below, so it is all interconnected)  is the triangle of the Super personal or outer planets, these (having larger orbits and their influence changes over greater amounts of time ) regulate changes in society and culture. (I'm trying to be brief and simple here ) .

 

Neptune is a' higher octave' than Venus,  Pluto if Mars and Uranus of Mercury, so they sit above each other in 'pillars' .

 

But between these two triangles of related force  are, what is known as' the gateway planets (or some  call this 'the valve' ... between the two ;   the Jupiter and Saturn dynamic ; expansion and contraction.

 

.......... Uranus..........

 

Pluto...............Neptune

 

 

 

Saturn  |          |  Jupiter

 

..............  SUN ..............

 

 

 

..............Mercury.........

 

................MOON .........

 

Mars ........................Venus

 

 

(essentially three 'triads' )

 

The 'Outcome' , to add a 'sphere' below to represent Malkuth  would be the personna , which is a combination of the above forces and what they turn into or become in relation to their environment  - 'the world'

 

The higher triad, the transpersonal planets and forces hold the mores and taboos of the society, they filter down and effect behaviours in the lower triad, these are 'experimented with' and interplay in the 'world' via the personna and THAT experience creates feedback which goes 'back up the tree', over time , to effect change and direction in those mores and taboos  (and many other areas ) , in a type of alchemical circulation and refinement process.

 

Now, we can draw lines or circle around certain parts of this diagram, eg, by circling the bottom part of the lower triad we have defined the 'Id' , include more and we have the unconscious. Shift that area up to include the Sun and we have the Ego, move it up more and away from the  bottom and we have the superconsciousness, include 'the world' and the influences above it and we have the 'Personna', etc .

 

( I  do have it all in images and diagrams , but the are in  an art book. I dont have facilities to transpose them to electronic form )

 

One could even say that moving Mars  down to this position represents  the 'Fall of Man' ... 

 

 

 

[ The thing is , using the 'normal attribution'  (see first diagram above) doesnt offer any thing much to work with  psychologically and solving many of the problems of life, psychology or interpersonal relationships , where the above does .  - I've more about  written about this in various  here on DBs ]

 

But with either Tree , as   Integrated said ;  

" As I personally feel we jump around all the time through life experiences,

but I have to guess that it is about holding the movement from one sefirot to another in consciousness.

Which is quite different from just occupying it unconsciously because the self wanted a trip there.

This challenges the notions I have about where I am in this tree consciously though. "

 

- we are sorta all through it at the same time  AND have focus on and in  different parts of it  at  times as well.  The idea being in one place or one relationship, on the Tree, I think, comes from the old hermetic concept of advancing through the spheres ;

 

We incarnate down through the spheres (the planets - basically) and pick up their energies . Then in life our job is to go back up through the planets and refine and purify / balance  their energies, in turn,  arriving back at (in consciousness) the source .

 

- also, this is a basic template for all of us  but when one transposes their own natal  astrological  arrangements  (  aspects ) on to this template it is a valuable self study tool .

 

[Nungali]

... yes, I did deliberately leave out such concepts and terms as  ' The Higher  Self ' 

 

 

[Desmonddf]

2 hours ago, Integrated said:

@Desmonddf

I've redrawn one of my charts to reflect your Geburah protest.

In some ways I can see it making more sense.

I've put it over the old one for now,

and I will just have to see if things fall in place more smoothly now.

 

To restate from my new point of view:

 

I have control up to Tifereth from this perspective, Geburah I hate like the plague,

and is no small part why I fly off the handle in certain situations.

Or just get totally shut down.

 

Hmm if this perspective holds,

I have a new tool to measure where I stand in relation to certain pesky Jungian problems.

Oh well time will tell.

 

The tree can be interpreted in a myriad of ways, mostly like a caledoscope. It is an structure that mirrors itself on many levels.

 

If you're dealing with yourself, then that's ego. You're dealing with your psyche, and all of that can be understood as a single Tree of Life, yes.

 

More especifically, it is a way of accessing Hod in order to comprehend the Ego (which would be Tipheret on a Tree that represents your own image of yourself and how you work on a mental level).

 

But if you go to the more esoteric practices, such as invocation or evocation, then you'll see things like the Names of God or the Archangels of each Sephirot will go way beyond that

 

Of course, you CAN use those as many people have started to use goetia and say they are all archetypes or whatnot. I still haven't seen an archetype capable of destroying physical things like the contact with the Archangels has done with my life. My car is busted, things just stop working and break when I start doing something the Angels forbid me to.

[Integrated]

6 hours ago, Nungali said:

- we are sorta all through it at the same time  AND have focus on and in  different parts of it  at  times as well.  The idea being in one place or one relationship, on the Tree, I think, comes from the old hermetic concept of advancing through the spheres ;

 

We incarnate down through the spheres (the planets - basically) and pick up their energies . Then in life our job is to go back up through the planets and refine and purify / balance  their energies, in turn,  arriving back at (in consciousness) the source .

 

Right, this was probably what I needed to understand.

The original intention of the whole damn thing.

Cause then I can judge what to do from there.

 

As the saying goes:

Follow not in the footsteps of the masters, but rather seek what they sought.

[Integrated]

18 hours ago, Desmonddf said:

 

The tree can be interpreted in a myriad of ways, mostly like a caledoscope. It is an structure that mirrors itself on many levels.

 

If you're dealing with yourself, then that's ego. You're dealing with your psyche, and all of that can be understood as a single Tree of Life, yes.

 

More especifically, it is a way of accessing Hod in order to comprehend the Ego (which would be Tipheret on a Tree that represents your own image of yourself and how you work on a mental level).

 

But if you go to the more esoteric practices, such as invocation or evocation, then you'll see things like the Names of God or the Archangels of each Sephirot will go way beyond that

 

Of course, you CAN use those as many people have started to use goetia and say they are all archetypes or whatnot. I still haven't seen an archetype capable of destroying physical things like the contact with the Archangels has done with my life. My car is busted, things just stop working and break when I start doing something the Angels forbid me to.

 

Yeah I wonder if my higher self broke my computer a year ago by making me careless.

At the time I was doing fruitless exercises to see if they impacted some issue with my hip.

When what was really needed was someone actually forcing some of the joints in place.

So when my computer died from my carelessness I was forced to stop the useless standing meditation.

Or at least I had to stop the journaling of it on this site, the rest came to a halt not long after.

 

It seems I need to pay more attention to Hod and Geburah then I guess.

 

I have read a bit more on them now including Netzach.

I think I understand about right where I need to relegate certain Jungian principles to make the puzzle unravel now.

Of course I will probably discover new layers all the time on this,

but to really be able to use a system, one need to set it in context with the rest of one's knowledge,

else it just becomes this weird anomaly that don't contribute anything useful at all.

 

I'm unsure how high my conscious control actually stretch up into the tree though.

I need to sit down and ponder it in relation to familiar landmarks.

 

I'm not the kind of guy who wants to be as high as possible in something for the sake of it.

Rather I view this as a map, I can either try to find my actual location,

or I can find a map of where I want to be, and ignore the fact that I'm not on that map myself.

With a map that includes where I'm at, I have can actually navigate the terrain,

but with an ideal map of somewhere else, I'm merely allowed to dream.

Edited September 30, 2019 by Integrated

[Everything]

On 28-9-2019 at 12:10 PM, Integrated said:

 

I do like where you are coming from in terms of heart, and I do agree that at least for me heart and soul is connected.

But how do we really know that everyone else can connect up naturally in the same way?

To me it seems people who have had an intellectual focus would have a very different path to take,

and that heart isn't necessarily something that is accessible right away.

Even though  it surely is happening all the time anyway, the consciousness of the intellectual

need to go through a lot of trials to get there, and the most glaring distraction,

is the hovering just outside of Kethers reach so to speak, intoxicated by being so near, but yet so far away.

Which is of course a trap anyone can fall in.

 

I'd like to say respectfully that from what I've read @Mskied has spent 20 years trying to cross that divide.

That is a long ass time to invest into something.

I think one of the traps off all this is to idealize any part of our being.

It being the higher self, heart, thinking or even the appearance of Malkhuth.

Now from what I've read, he is trying to get rid of thinking and replace it with nothing.

In other words the equivalent of silencing the monkey mind.

But without heart and the ability to connect emotionally to self and others,

then one in my imagination would be left with some numb silence.

If I would classify the situation, I'd say that he has abandoned his soul and the work it entails,

to chase flighty spirits that pop in and out of the abyss.

 

This is just a big assumption on my part, but I cannot really do anything else than point out how things seem to me.

Yes, that is why I say YOU CANNOT DO IT, YOU HAVE TO ALLOW IT.

 

You are already fully connected to your soul's perfect pure nature, you just gotta allow it to be so. So when you feel negative emotion, you love that. You know why? BECAUSE IT IS YOUR PURE AND PERFECT GOOD NATURE. To simply let go of that thought that is not compatible with all that you truely are. And thus then naturally and effortlessly allow yourself to feel better, emotionally. 

 

You don't need to cross that divide, because THERE IS NO DIVIDE. Your soul and even the source of all creation is evermore fully here and now for you. EVERMORE. 

 

So if you're going to ignore your own emotional guidance system, and think things which feel bad, which are not compatible with your own true nature. Then you will suffer. Because you are thinking in contradiction with who it is you truely are. So that suffering is evidence of your perfectly good and unconditionally worthy nature of being. It shows you that you truely are eternally and infinitely evermore here and now FULLY CONNECTED, EVERMORE. but if you think things that don't feel good to you, you simply contradict your own connection, and since that cannot be done, you suffer over it. Because it's simply not necessary to do that. Even 20 years means nothing. Because you cannot ever become less than all that you truely are being and becoming evermore fully here and now. So you never need to do anything or think anything to allow it.

 

Hence people teach meditation. To help you realise how easy it is to allow. How nothing you need to do to allow yourself to feel better emotionally. And how even 1 contradictory thought, is imcompatible with your true pure nature of being, that it doesn't feel good, so that you can let go more fully consciously. And allow your perfect good nature to be evermore fully realised by you evermore fully here and now, evermore joyously, effortlessly, naturally, realisedly. Feeling goodly.

 

Your emotions are your acces to infinite intelligence and eternal wisdom, if you allow it.

Edited September 30, 2019 by Everything

[Nungali]

On 30/09/2019 at 8:41 AM, Desmonddf said:

 

The tree can be interpreted in a myriad of ways, mostly like a caledoscope. It is an structure that mirrors itself on many levels.

 

If you're dealing with yourself, then that's ego. You're dealing with your psyche, and all of that can be understood as a single Tree of Life, yes.

 

More especifically, it is a way of accessing Hod in order to comprehend the Ego (which would be Tipheret on a Tree that represents your own image of yourself and how you work on a mental level).

 

But if you go to the more esoteric practices, such as invocation or evocation, then you'll see things like the Names of God or the Archangels of each Sephirot will go way beyond that

 

Of course, you CAN use those as many people have started to use goetia and say they are all archetypes or whatnot. I still haven't seen an archetype capable of destroying physical things like the contact with the Archangels has done with my life. My car is busted, things just stop working and break when I start doing something the Angels forbid me to.

 

Yes, but if one does what they want ... then things magically fall into place, doors open opportunity drops in your lap .

 

OR  like what my exasperated lawyer said to me about our court case ;  " I cant believe this ... they trow you into a river and you stumble and trip across a path of stepping stones unseen under the surface and land collapsed on the other side, on  a silk pillow with a cocktail in your hand  .... again !  ' 

 

 

[Nungali]

18 hours ago, Integrated said:

 

Right, this was probably what I needed to understand.

The original intention of the whole damn thing.

Cause then I can judge what to do from there.

 

Oh, yes .  Many got lost because they dont even consider an original intention .  I was taught , when writing  up any ritual or experiment  in my magical diary to set it out like a science experiment   ;

 

AIM :  ......

 

METHOD ;  ......

 

EQUIPMENT ;  .....

 

18 hours ago, Integrated said:

As the saying goes:

Follow not in the footsteps of the masters, but rather seek what they sought.

 

YES !

 

'Postcards to Probationers' ;

 

 

ESSENTIALS OF METHOD

I. Theology is immaterial; for both Buddha and St. Ignatius were Christs.

II. Morality is immaterial; for both Socrates and Mohammed were Christs.

III. Super-consciousness is a natural phenomenon; its conditions are therefore to be sought rather in the acts than the words of those who attain it.

The essential acts are retirement and concentration — as taught by Yoga and Ceremonial Magic

 

https://hermetic.com/crowley/equinox/i/ii/eqi02016

 

[Nungali]

7 hours ago, Integrated said:

 

Yeah I wonder if my higher self broke my computer a year ago by making me careless.

At the time I was doing fruitless exercises to see if they impacted some issue with my hip.

When what was really needed was someone actually forcing some of the joints in place.

So when my computer died from my carelessness I was forced to stop the useless standing meditation.

Or at least I had to stop the journaling of it on this site, the rest came to a halt not long after.

 

It seems I need to pay more attention to Hod and Geburah then I guess.

 

I have read a bit more on them now including Netzach.

I think I understand about right where I need to relegate certain Jungian principles to make the puzzle unravel now.

Of course I will probably discover new layers all the time on this,

but to really be able to use a system, one need to set it in context with the rest of one's knowledge,

else it just becomes this weird anomaly that don't contribute anything useful at all.

 

I'm unsure how high my conscious control actually stretch up into the tree though.

I need to sit down and ponder it in relation to familiar landmarks.

 

I'm not the kind of guy who wants to be as high as possible in something for the sake of it.

Rather I view this as a map, I can either try to find my actual location,

or I can find a map of where I want to be, and ignore the fact that I'm not on that map myself.

With a map that includes where I'm at, I have can actually navigate the terrain,

but with an ideal map of somewhere else, I'm merely allowed to dream.

 

Our group did a course, hosted by a member who was an astrologer, on reading and interpreting  your own astrological chart.  To me that has been an invaluable process. I have had others read it before but it never gave the insights  that reading my own did . 

 

Of course, one needs some background perspective and a bit of 'intelligence' and objective viewpoint regarding the subjective (and elusive concept of ) self  ...  but it seems you could do that . (Meaning, you dont seem lost in a hopeless muddle of forces and contradictions and projections  )

 

Then after that when I transposed it on to my 'Astro Psychological Tree' .... bingo !    And it wasn't  just 'understanding' , I also gained acceptance of myself in certain areas and when I did that, some things really started to change and 'come through'  on the physical for me !     ( I rarely use this term because .....  )   but it was   awesome !  (see my second post above to Desmonddf )

[Desmonddf]

2 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

Yes, but if one does what they want ... then things magically fall into place, doors open opportunity drops in your lap .

 

OR  like what my exasperated lawyer said to me about our court case ;  " I cant believe this ... they trow you into a river and you stumble and trip across a path of stepping stones unseen under the surface and land collapsed on the other side, on  a silk pillow with a cocktail in your hand  .... again !  ' 

 

 

 

I'd say, if they do what they "Want", not "want"

 

Ego has these problems. I've run from using my True Will right before the car got busted. And then it stoped working. I just had something I had to do before going to do what I wanted to do.

 

Manifesting your True Will all moments of your life is though shit.

 

 

Edit: Oh, you were talking about the angels. Indeed, they do

Those boys don't give a fuck about stuff. They are the ones who make the universe, the ones putting the pieces in place. If they want (actually, if they are "commanded by the Lord" which can be interpreted by "commanded by the divine which exist in yourself", but also as "the divine creator of the universe" (both are the same, really) they just change it.

 

Karma?

 

They are the ones who made it.

 

Destiny?

They are the ones putting it in place.

 

Anything at all?

 

They're the workers making it happen.

 

If they are commanded, things just change. Simply as that.

 

Of course, dealing with this level of reality can be a bitch. As a friend of mine once said: "If you want to fuck someone up, give them angels to talk to. Demons won't break them into pieces like Angels will." And indeed, the amount of suffering one of them can inflict on people is off the charts. They can literally send you to hell and back if they want to. Or even toss you out from reality into the Void.

Scary stuff.

 

Edited October 1, 2019 by Desmonddf

[Desmonddf]

9 hours ago, Integrated said:

 

Yeah I wonder if my higher self broke my computer a year ago by making me careless.

At the time I was doing fruitless exercises to see if they impacted some issue with my hip.

When what was really needed was someone actually forcing some of the joints in place.

So when my computer died from my carelessness I was forced to stop the useless standing meditation.

Or at least I had to stop the journaling of it on this site, the rest came to a halt not long after.

 

It seems I need to pay more attention to Hod and Geburah then I guess.

 

I have read a bit more on them now including Netzach.

I think I understand about right where I need to relegate certain Jungian principles to make the puzzle unravel now.

Of course I will probably discover new layers all the time on this,

but to really be able to use a system, one need to set it in context with the rest of one's knowledge,

else it just becomes this weird anomaly that don't contribute anything useful at all.

 

I'm unsure how high my conscious control actually stretch up into the tree though.

I need to sit down and ponder it in relation to familiar landmarks.

 

I'm not the kind of guy who wants to be as high as possible in something for the sake of it.

Rather I view this as a map, I can either try to find my actual location,

or I can find a map of where I want to be, and ignore the fact that I'm not on that map myself.

With a map that includes where I'm at, I have can actually navigate the terrain,

but with an ideal map of somewhere else, I'm merely allowed to dream.

 

Very good atitude. Good luck

[Nungali]

17 hours ago, Desmonddf said:

...... They are the ones who make the universe, the ones putting the pieces in place. If they want (actually, if they are "commanded by the Lord" which can be interpreted by "commanded by the divine which exist in yourself", but also as "the divine creator of the universe" (both are the same, really) they just change it.  ....

 

 

It helps to have a 'communications keyboard '  ;

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

... and a good voice ;

 

"  Adagita vau-pa-ahe zodonugonu fa-a-ipe salada! "

 

(  then they will know what you are talking about . )

[Desmonddf]

17 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

It helps to have a 'communications keyboard '  ;

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

... and a good voice ;

 

"  Adagita vau-pa-ahe zodonugonu fa-a-ipe salada! "

 

(  then they will know what you are talking about . )

 

Enochians.... so much power, so little angelic!

 

I'm working with the classical angelic hostes at this moment. I've gone through the Querubin and Seraphim, and now I'm suffering like a dog in the hands of the Malachin.

Seriously, these guys are worst than demons.

Way worse (I would know - since I've befriended a couple of them in the past).

Edited October 2, 2019 by Desmonddf