Mystical Christian Thread

[Fa Xin]

Since the Gospel of Thomas thread is ending, I have nothing to do.... (don't tell Dawei, he'll put me to work)

 

But since that thread was so fun, let's open up interpretations to any of the canonical gospels and gnostic scriptures.

 

Just post a verse you want to chat about, question or just to share.

[Fa Xin]

"Light and darkness, life and death, and right and left are siblings of one another, and inseparable. For this reason the good are not good, the bad are not bad, life is not life, death is not death. Each will dissolve into its original nature, but what is superior to the world cannot be dissolved, for it is eternal." -Gospel of Philip

[Patrick Brown]

Quote

Matthew 20:16 King James Version (KJV)

¹⁶ So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

 

Isn't this a mystical statement? Many see it as a paradox or sometimes a balancing but I believe it to be more subtle! 

 

I'll keep my interpretation as simple as possible:

 

The first are the enlightened ones who understanding the nature of reality, at least from the human perspective, learn how to live. As the enlightened ones are following 'the way' they subsist until the very end of the cycle. Once the cycle has ended the new one begins and all enter following the enlightened ones hence the esoteric meaning of 'the last are the first and the first are the last'. 

 

[whitesilk]

8 hours ago, Fa Xin said:

"Light and darkness, life and death, and right and left are siblings of one another, and inseparable. For this reason the good are not good, the bad are not bad, life is not life, death is not death. Each will dissolve into its original nature, but what is superior to the world cannot be dissolved, for it is eternal." -Gospel of Philip

 

Isiah 14:12 NIV

 

"How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!"

 

Rev. 22:16 NIV

 

"'I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.'"

[whitesilk]

The latin term for 'morning star' is lucifere or bringer of light.

[Patrick Brown]

1 minute ago, whitesilk said:

The latin term for 'morning star' is lucifere or bringer of light.

 

Yes the Occultists often point this out, Blavatsky, Bailey etc. But what does it mean and can we differentiate between 'morning star' and 'bright morning star' the brighter one/star being the sun perhaps? Of course the Sun is a star but Venus (morning star) is a planet. 

 

We could also add, if we're being truly esoteric, that the light from Venus, the so called planet of love, is simply the reflection of light from the sun and therefore a pretender! Human love is therefore not divine love but more a coveting of the idea of love as an imagined something. People are heard to say 'my love' when referring to their wife, husband or children. 

 

So it may be argued that the true love is the sun and Venus is an impostor. I won't venture an analysis of male female psychology but simple highlight the archetypes of Mars and Venus which may shed some light on the matter!  

 

There is a reason why we are often told to remain celibate but we are so deep in the mire few understand it anymore. There is a direct correlation to Buddhism for those that can see it.  

[Fa Xin]

2 hours ago, Patrick Brown said:

 

Isn't this a mystical statement? Many see it as a paradox or sometimes a balancing but I believe it to be more subtle! 

 

I'll keep my interpretation as simple as possible:

 

The first are the enlightened ones who understanding the nature of reality, at least from the human perspective, learn how to live. As the enlightened ones are following 'the way' they subsist until the very end of the cycle. Once the cycle has ended the new one begins and all enter following the enlightened ones hence the esoteric meaning of 'the last are the first and the first are the last'. 

 

 

Nice interpretation.  I would say it's all mystical in one way or another

 

I've always thought this verse represents the principle found in James 4:6

 

"But he gives us more grace. That is why Scripture says: “God opposes the proud but shows favor to the humble.”

 

Though I do think it also represents something about how we are all in this together, that one of us will not become completely free until we are all free.  

[Patrick Brown]

1 minute ago, Fa Xin said:

 

Nice interpretation.  I would say it's all mystical in one way or another

 

I've always thought this verse represents the principle found in James 4:6

 

"But he gives us more grace. That is why Scripture says: “God opposes the proud but shows favor to the humble.”

 

Though I do think it also represents something about how we are all in this together, that one of us will not become completely free until we are all free.  

 

Yes the first who truly understand are like shepherds which makes it even more esoteric. 

[Fa Xin]

4 minutes ago, Patrick Brown said:

 

Yes the first who truly understand are like shepherds which makes it even more esoteric. 

The Gospel of Thomas has this one,

 

4. Jesus said, "The person old in days won't hesitate to ask a little child seven days old about the place of life, and that person will live. For many of the first will be last, and will become a single one."

Edited February 8, 2019 by Fa Xin

[Patrick Brown]

11 minutes ago, Fa Xin said:

The Gospel of Thomas has this one,

 

4. Jesus said, "The person old in days won't hesitate to ask a little child seven days old about the place of life, and that person will live. For many of the first will be last, and will become a single one."

 

Yep, that's in the ball park of true esoteric wisdom. 

[whitesilk]

Ephesians 2:14-15 NIV

 

"For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace,"

[Fa Xin]

8 minutes ago, whitesilk said:

Ephesians 2:14-15 NIV

 

"For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace,"

Wow! A great one 😊

[Zen Pig]

While I enjoy a lot of these text,  it seems that they are much like text, sayings, books on Zen.  In other words,  one only "gets" it,  when they get it.   From my experience, no matter how well someone tries to explain the transcendent,  It never fails to either fall short of the real experience, or more likely give folks a false mental impression of "what it is, or what it is like".   This can sometimes do more harm than good by creating a kind of belief in how folks think this transcendence should be like or look like. Tjhen many spend much more time arguing and talking about it,  then just sitting with it.

Of course, once one has had an "ah-ha" moment, or moments,  then reading these kinds of things can be cathartic in that one sees the common threads of personal experience.  just my two cents. 

[whitesilk]

@Zen Pig The first thing that I've read about being a watercolor painter is that one does NOT want followers. Heartbreaking or joyful moments can be recorded with a paintbrush. I once saw a dragonfly give birth. I was walking down a path near my home and noticed a dragonfly flying in circles. After about three loops, a small dot flew to the trees. I sketched up the moment right when I got home. My experience can be communicated visually, yet my style remains my style.

[Fa Xin]

28 minutes ago, Zen Pig said:

While I enjoy a lot of these text,  it seems that they are much like text, sayings, books on Zen.  In other words,  one only "gets" it,  when they get it.   From my experience, no matter how well someone tries to explain the transcendent,  It never fails to either fall short of the real experience, or more likely give folks a false mental impression of "what it is, or what it is like".   This can sometimes do more harm than good by creating a kind of belief in how folks think this transcendence should be like or look like. Tjhen many spend much more time arguing and talking about it,  then just sitting with it.

Of course, once one has had an "ah-ha" moment, or moments,  then reading these kinds of things can be cathartic in that one sees the common threads of personal experience.  just my two cents.

 

Yes, concepts and ideas can get in the way of gnosis (knowing firsthand or experiencing it.)  That is for every person, in their heart, to find out at the appropriate time.  A husk understanding of the verses will not quench the thirst of the soul, and will send someone searching deeper until they find it themselves, or come across someone who can show them the way.  These words are merely pointers, and I think threads like this are invaluable, because we are able to elaborate and explain things that may help someone.

 

Luckily, I just post them for my own enjoyment.

Edited February 8, 2019 by Fa Xin

[Patrick Brown]

1 hour ago, Zen Pig said:

Of course, once one has had an "ah-ha" moment, or moments,  then reading these kinds of things can be cathartic in that one sees the common threads of personal experience.  just my two cents. 

 

I think even with the 'ah-ha' moment the ego will often want to deny such 'insights/realisations' because it means the shedding of a skin. Of course it's pretty difficult to un-know certain things but the pull of desires, both physical and mental, can be a powerful thing. 

 

I think these threads help test and reinforce ones belief/knowing/insight/understanding, or what ever it might be termed as. In fact I don't think the testing and questioning should ever stop which doesn't infer doubt as such testing might simply lead to even greater insight.

 

If something is realised and it's simplicity admired how much more beautiful will it seem if it's simplified even further! 

 

39 minutes ago, Fa Xin said:

Luckily, I just post them for my own enjoyment.

 

As long as it's not egotism then finding profound beauty in anything can only be a good thing. I prefer imagery over the written word but who doesn't? 

 

Edited February 8, 2019 by Patrick Brown

[Fa Xin]

22) The Savior said, All nature, all formations, all creatures exist in and with one another, and they will be resolved again into their own roots.

23) For the nature of matter is resolved into the roots of its own nature alone.

24) He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

25) Peter said to him, Since you have explained everything to us, tell us this also: What is the sin of the world?

26) The Savior said There is no sin, but it is you who make sin when you do the things that are like the nature of adultery, which is called sin.

27) That is why the Light came into your midst, to the essence of every nature in order to restore it to its root. -Gospel according to Mary Magdalene 

[rocala]

 Jesus said, "Many are standing at the door, but it is the solitary who will enter the bridal chamber."

Gospel of Thomas

[Aetherous]

9 hours ago, whitesilk said:

 

Isiah 14:12 NIV

 

"How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!"

 

Rev. 22:16 NIV

 

"'I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.'"

 

Also Revelation 2:26-28 NIV:

"To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations— that one ‘will rule them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces like pottery’ (a reference to Psalm 2:9)—just as I have received authority from my Father. I will also give that one the morning star."

And 2 Peter 1:19 NIV: 

 

"We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts."

I've heard that the Isaiah verse is related to Ezekiel 28:1-19. Not sure if they're about the same king, but both have to do with an excessive hubris (thinking one is more than just a mortal, or trying to be greater than the Most High) and loss of conscience...and they seem to use Satan as a metaphor for the king; or the king was identified as Satan/the fallen one.

I think it'd be questionable to interpret "morning star" as being Satan, though, given the other verses. It's clearly a good thing. But it's definitely a tricky subject given the Isaiah verse.

[Aetherous]

8 hours ago, whitesilk said:

Ephesians 2:14-15 NIV

 

"For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace,"

 

What do you guys think are "the two"? Any Biblical support for your idea?

[whitesilk]

@Aetherous I've been pondering this issue within my own soul for years, this being the first time I've voiced it online. Just looking at the language of the verse, it could refer to gender issues and have no exact relation to light / dark. I am somewhat familiar with Hebrew custom, and marriage rites include some sort of stepping across a 'threshhold' doorway or barrier I believe, yet am unsure as I am not Jewish.

 

 

[Fa Xin]

My interpretation as follows... 

 

As I’m sure you’ve seen in other verses, the phrase “one in Christ”... The Gnostic perspective I’m familiar with is that Jesus came down and pretty much flipped the “old system” on its head. And by this I mean he created an energetic shift which changed the whole system, he transcended the world and duality, making it possible for others to be free of it too. “Who has made the two one and destroyed the barrier”. 

 

This was the change - he allowed others to transcend the world by being able to use him as a doorway to life. Before that you were kind of on your own.

 

The whole practice of Mystical Christianity is based on this... to connect with Jesus on a heart (energy) level and transcend death (the world) and to be reborn in Christ (the spirit)

Edited February 8, 2019 by Fa Xin

[whitesilk]

31 minutes ago, Fa Xin said:

Who has made the two one and destroyed the barrier

 

No offense, JFK was a jelly dough nut.

[Fa Xin]

30 minutes ago, whitesilk said:

 

No offense, JFK was a jelly dough nut.

Your saying that my interpretation is wrong ? or the translation is wrong ?

 

Either way, no offense is taken. We all interpret things differently. It’s what kind of change the verse creates in you that is the important thing. What we get out of it at the end of the day. 😊

Edited February 9, 2019 by Fa Xin

[Aetherous]

1 hour ago, Aetherous said:

to create in himself one new man out of the two

 

Going simply based off of the translated language, part of this could imply there was an old man, which is cast aside and which he no longer is. The new man may not have been either of the two (because it's created new). It's also solely "in himself", so it's not referring to the "one flesh" concept of uniting male and female...at least externally speaking. I'm not sure of the Bible ever teaching about the two genders being internal within one person.

I'm truly interested to see if anyone has other verses that speak of something related to this notion of "the two".