Mystical Christian Thread

[Fa Xin]

30 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

I would also add that he is talking about himself in this verse. In the first sentence they are saying that Jesus speaks the words of the past prophets (spoke in you).  But, Jesus brings a new covenant (realization/understanding), and is saying pay attention now (and to him), and dont focus on old (and now dead) words/teachings.

 

Nice, I like this. 

[Fa Xin]

Jesus said, "The images are manifest to man, but the light in them remains concealed in the image of the light of the Father.  He will become manifest, but his image will remain concealed by his light." Gospel of Thomas 83

[Fa Xin]

Just now, Fa Xin said:

Jesus said, "The images are manifest to man, but the light in them remains concealed in the image of the light of the Father.  He will become manifest, but his image will remain concealed by his light." Gospel of Thomas 83

 

This one has tricky word play.

 

Another translation, that I think is a little more clear,

 

83. Jesus said, "Images are visible to people, but the light within them is hidden in the image of the Father's light. He will be disclosed, but his image is hidden by his light."

[Jeff]

8 hours ago, Fa Xin said:

Jesus said, "The images are manifest to man, but the light in them remains concealed in the image of the light of the Father.  He will become manifest, but his image will remain concealed by his light." Gospel of Thomas 83

 

Form is empty.  Or you could say that the mind reflects and manifests energy in the mind as visuals, but energy is really just obscured light, and light is clear.  Or a “son of god” knows there is nothing to see at astral/energy levels. 

[Maddie]

On 2/7/2019 at 10:11 PM, Fa Xin said:

"Light and darkness, life and death, and right and left are siblings of one another, and inseparable. For this reason the good are not good, the bad are not bad, life is not life, death is not death. Each will dissolve into its original nature, but what is superior to the world cannot be dissolved, for it is eternal." -Gospel of Philip

 

On 2/8/2019 at 4:56 AM, Patrick Brown said:

 

Isn't this a mystical statement? Many see it as a paradox or sometimes a balancing but I believe it to be more subtle! 

 

I'll keep my interpretation as simple as possible:

 

The first are the enlightened ones who understanding the nature of reality, at least from the human perspective, learn how to live. As the enlightened ones are following 'the way' they subsist until the very end of the cycle. Once the cycle has ended the new one begins and all enter following the enlightened ones hence the esoteric meaning of 'the last are the first and the first are the last'. 

 

 

This first quote is so blatantly yin and yang, the polarity of opposites.

 

The second quote seems to me to be more about yin specifically. Yang is more obvious and fast but in the end Yin wins.

[mlinssen]

On 08/02/2019 at 2:20 PM, Fa Xin said:

The Gospel of Thomas has this one,

 

4. Jesus said, "The person old in days won't hesitate to ask a little child seven days old about the place of life, and that person will live. For many of the first will be last, and will become a single one."

A very common translation, but alas not a correct one

 

4 said IS he will delay not viz. the human old-person in his days to make-cease a little child small he in seven day because-of the Place of the life and he will live : there-be many first will make-be last and they come-to-be one alone

 

Now that makes sense, doesn't it? Quickly, stop the child from growing up! and he will live indeed, free from splitting, free from becoming separated, dualised

 

Feel free to verify my translation, as long as you can click you can do so:

 

https://www.academia.edu/42110001/Interactive_Coptic_English_Thomas_translation_v1_7_5_with_complete_double_reverse_index_and_concordance

 

It is a word by word translation from the Coptic, hyperlinked into the KELLIA Coptic Dictionary Online.

It has a double index, and a double concordance - hyperlinking back into each logion

 

If you want to study Thomas, it has never been easier, nor more direct, and pure

 

I'm working my way through all logia for my Commentary, and I find strong evidence for Tao-like ideas - but I'm unsure whether separation at an early age is one of them

Edited February 4, 2021 by mlinssen
Typo

[mlinssen]

On 08/02/2019 at 3:53 PM, Zen Pig said:

While I enjoy a lot of these text,  it seems that they are much like text, sayings, books on Zen.  In other words,  one only "gets" it,  when they get it.   From my experience, no matter how well someone tries to explain the transcendent,  It never fails to either fall short of the real experience, or more likely give folks a false mental impression of "what it is, or what it is like".   This can sometimes do more harm than good by creating a kind of belief in how folks think this transcendence should be like or look like. Tjhen many spend much more time arguing and talking about it,  then just sitting with it.

Of course, once one has had an "ah-ha" moment, or moments,  then reading these kinds of things can be cathartic in that one sees the common threads of personal experience.  just my two cents. 

Well put. Thomas wrote his text exactly because of that. He knows that there is no stopping people from seeking, but he directs the way of seeking, in telling that there is "No Great Fish" (logion 8)

 

He tells of the two you's, and the real you, the "father". Making the two one is "nothing more" than realising that there are two, that you are two: slaveowner and slave at the same time

 

And you make the one by realisation, not knowing, but Realising that. Then they go up in smoke and the One that remains, that appears - that is You

[mlinssen]

On 09/02/2019 at 12:37 AM, Fa Xin said:

My interpretation as follows... 

 

As I’m sure you’ve seen in other verses, the phrase “one in Christ”... The Gnostic perspective I’m familiar with is that Jesus came down and pretty much flipped the “old system” on its head. And by this I mean he created an energetic shift which changed the whole system, he transcended the world and duality, making it possible for others to be free of it too. “Who has made the two one and destroyed the barrier”. 

 

This was the change - he allowed others to transcend the world by being able to use him as a doorway to life. Before that you were kind of on your own.

 

The whole practice of Mystical Christianity is based on this... to connect with Jesus on a heart (energy) level and transcend death (the world) and to be reborn in Christ (the spirit)

What if... Thomas came before any and all of Christianity?

 

What if Thomas is just deep prose, poetry, a riddling at of instructions about non duality, about everything being One, about the mental models you created: your house, your World?

 

What if his text is a magnificent masterpiece where most logia have a second translation, a less obvious one, with a deeper meaning that actually makes sense?

 

The Parable of the Strong Man is one such:

 

35 said IS there-is-not strength of one go-inward to the house of the strong and he take him within forearm Unless he binds his hands Then he will move-out of his house

 

"Forearm" is even the primary translation there, the usual "force" is the secondary definition of ϫⲛⲁϩ, https://coptic-dictionary.org/entry.cgi?tla=C7271

 

Taking someone by the forearm is a metaphor for "helping"...

[Bindi]

1 hour ago, mlinssen said:

What if... Thomas came before any and all of Christianity?

 

The current perspective suggests this is correct, Gnosticism was around before the time of Jesus, and his teachings were given a gnostic perspective. 

 

Quote

 

Gnosticism was a religion and philosophical movement active between 200 BCE and 400 CE. Based on the idea of Gnosis, the Greek word for knowledge, it focused on salvation through the discovery and fostering of secret, inner knowledge. To Gnostics, this world is a corrupt realm of suffering and evil created by a being who was not the true God but thought he was. Their goal, through Gnosis, was to wake a divine spark within themselves and gain the sacred knowledge needed to be free of this world after death. 

Origins

While we don't know how Gnosticism in general began, we know the belief dates back several centuries before the birth of Christ. However, when Christianity reached the Hellenistic world, the Gnostics were among the first to adopt it, albeit reinterpreted into their own philosophy. Gnostic Christians believed that the Hebrew God was actually a being they called the Demiurge, a corrupt being who created the physical world but gave it his innate flaws of wickedness. In contrast, they believed Christ was actually a living form of divine knowledge created by Sophia, a being of wisdom created by the actual True God. They believed Jesus came to earth to teach humans how to free themselves from bondage to the Demiurge's realm. 
 

https://study.com/academy/lesson/gnosticism-definition-history.html

 

Is it possible that Jesus himself was a gnostic? Very unlikely. From the perspective of Jewish Christians, 

 

Jesus’ life was not spent inventing a new religion, but in proclaiming the kingdom of God.

What religion was Jesus, then? 

Jesus (Yeshua) was a rabbi – a teacher of Judaism. What he taught pointed the way back to the heart of Jewish faith - salvation as it always has been offered: by faith in the God of Israel and His Messiah, through God’s grace or undeserved favor. https://jewsforjesus.org/publications/issues/what-religion-was-jesus

 

 

1 hour ago, mlinssen said:

What if Thomas is just deep prose, poetry, a riddling at of instructions about non duality, about everything being One, about the mental models you created: your house, your World?

 

What if his text is a magnificent masterpiece where most logia have a second translation, a less obvious one, with a deeper meaning that actually makes sense?

 

The Parable of the Strong Man is one such:

 

35 said IS there-is-not strength of one go-inward to the house of the strong and he take him within forearm Unless he binds his hands Then he will move-out of his house

 

"Forearm" is even the primary translation there, the usual "force" is the secondary definition of ϫⲛⲁϩ, https://coptic-dictionary.org/entry.cgi?tla=C7271

 

Taking someone by the forearm is a metaphor for "helping"...

 

[Nam Sao]

Some thoughts on "star" language in the Hebrew Bible and New Testament, and stuff

 

First off, this is a really cool thread. 

 

As for the star language, I've read that stars were often associated with divine beings in ancient near eastern thought. There were some generally simple reasons for this. (1) They were far away in the heavens (the inaccessible higher realm), (2) they were shiny/bright, and (3) they appeared to move in the sky and so must have been living beings. 

 

We see this type of reference to the morning stars as divine beings in Job. 

Quote

“Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding. Who determined its measurements—surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it? On what were its bases sunk, or who laid its cornerstone, when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?  -Job 38:4-7 

The same Hebrew word for "star" is also used in Numbers 

Quote

I see him, but not now; I behold him, but not near: a star shall come out of Jacob, and a scepter shall rise out of Israel; it shall crush the forehead of Moab and break down all the sons of Sheth. -Numbers 24:17

 

A messianic aspect to this verse seems to be why Rabbi Akiva would end up renaming a man that he thought was the Messiah as "Simon Bar Kokba/Simon Son of Star." It would be a jump to say that this usage of star in this Hebrew text indicates that the Messiah will be divine, though that view would likely fly well in Christian circles

 

Many Christians also take Revelation 12 to have a reference where Satan causes 1/3 of the angels in heaven to fall, though this is expressed in star terminology

Quote

And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems. His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she bore her child he might devour it.  -Revelation 12:3-4

Speak of the devil, "Satan" often comes up as well in relation to Isaiah 14, though the topic can be a bit tricky if we stick to just the Hebrew text or modern Jewish views. It's only with the developments seen in other Jewish literature and the New Testament that we can build a more detailed idea of the singular ultimate divine rebel entity known as Satan. But if we do see Satan as being the greatest of divine rebels, then we can move into applying Isaiah 14:12-15 to him,  which is perhaps the main part of this chapter that focuses on the divine being being described rather than literal human king of Babylon, whom the taunt is addressed to.  

 

Quote

“How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low! -Isaiah 14:12

Regardless of whether or not this is specifically about the Satan figure of Christianity, I think many scholars recognize that at the very least, this part of the passage starts to look at some sort of ancient myth about rebellious deities falling from grace. In terms of star terminology, this verse differs in that it does not use the same word in Hebrew for star as the previous verses. Rather than Job 38's (כֹּ֣וכְבֵי בֹ֑קֶר)/(kokbey bokher), which literally means "morning stars," Isaiah 14:12 uses (הֵילֵ֣ל בֶּן־שָׁ֑חַר)/(hilel ben shahar). In terms of lexicons on the word "hilel," Brown Driver Briggs (BDB) seems to have "shining one" as it's primary listing while the Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament (HALOT) treats the word hilel itself as being "morning star/crescent moon."  

 

That said, we still have the next verse

Quote

You said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to heaven; above the stars of God I will set my throne on high; I will sit on the mount of assembly in the far reaches of the north; -Isaiah 14:13

Here, we go back to the more common term for stars which uses kokbey, but can it refer to divine beings in this instance? I think so, because the Satan figure of this verse is being portrayed as deeply prideful, and his desire in verse 13 is to establish a throne above "the stars of God/(מִמַּ֥עַל לְכֹֽוכְבֵי־אֵ֖ל). Some may think of this as only meaning that this being wants to be "the highest," but it seems to be more than that. It is a special height that is being sought after, and this is perhaps best demonstrated in the fact that verses 13-14 alone contain at least 6 references to ascension in some way. It seems that rather than being redundant, each phrase has a unique meaning, and I think that to establish a throne "above the stars of God" is really a way of saying that this figure wanted the entire order of divine beings under him. 

 

And the punishment for the prideful desire to ascend beyond God? To instead descend into the lowest depths
 

Quote

But you are brought down to Sheol, to the far reaches of the pit. -Isaiah 14:15

 

 

Many Christians view the work of Jesus in a way where is it done and yet not done since all of the results have not taken place, an "already but not yet" type of thing, if that makes any sense. This also applies to the defeat of Satan. In one sense, a Christian believes Satan is defeated in the sense that "sin is defeated," but I also think there another sense to it, a way in which God kind of gives Satan a divine middle finger for his actions. And this is in the idea that God will exalt mankind, which might be seen in Jesus' words to the church of Thyatira in the book of Revelation

Quote

The one who conquers and who keeps my works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron, as when earthen pots are broken in pieces, even as I myself have received authority from my Father. And I will give him the morning star. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’ -Revelation 2:26-29

 

One view here is that the "giving of the morning star" is the exaltation of the human to the level of a divine being, and perhaps a member of God's divine council. 

 

Paul says two things that seem to touch on this type of idea as well:

Quote

But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?” You foolish person! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. And what you sow is not the body that is to be, but a bare kernel, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain. But God gives it a body as he has chosen, and to each kind of seed its own body. For not all flesh is the same, but there is one kind for humans, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish. There are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is of one kind, and the glory of the earthly is of another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory. So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. -1 Corinthians 15:35-42

This passage looks as our current physical bodies as not being the actual body that is intended for mankind as beings that will live forever. Our bodies will ultimately certainly be exalted to the level of being imperishable. And if Jesus is the first example and cause of this type of resurrection body, then this body, while called "spiritual" may not necessarily be immaterial. 

 

But not only do we get these new imperishable bodies, Paul also says something interesting when criticizing Christians who couldn't settle matters with each other and would take each other to court:

Quote

When one of you has a grievance against another, does he dare go to law before the unrighteous instead of the saints? Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases? Do you not know that we are to judge angels? How much more, then, matters pertaining to this life! So if you have such cases, why do you lay them before those who have no standing in the church? I say this to your shame. Can it be that there is no one among you wise enough to settle a dispute between the brothers, -1 Corinthians 6:1-5

So for Paul, not only do we gain imperishable bodies, but ultimately the saints will also judge the world, including angels. 

 

The idea of Jesus giving believers "a morning star" as being a type of theosis or theosis related concept seems not so far fetched, even in terms of Pauline writings. 

 

Perhaps one could even say that even the current life on earth for Christians is the beginning of this process as they receive an indwelling of the Holy Spirit, adoption as children of the Father, and union with Christ, kind of like a constant iv drip to the divine. 

Edited February 5, 2021 by Nam Sao