Zen Pig Posted February 10, 2019 I was looking into esoteric literature on the web, and came across this study published in NIH / Frontiers of Psychology peer reviewed journal about experiences of seeing images in meditation. While they had to keep what little explanation for this phenomena in the realm of the western rational reductionist religious world view, I am amazed that the western world is actually taking meditation seriously to the point of studying it, validating it and publishing findings. Will wonders never cease. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3879457/ 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Patrick Brown Posted February 10, 2019 Yes but they're only throwing money at it to see if they can utilise it in ways to further control the masses! People are talking in the UK about how democracy is being corrupted but the reality is that it was always corrupt and just another control mechanism. The illusion of choice is always very compelling until the stark reality of truth appears! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
doc benway Posted February 10, 2019 Meditation has gotten a lot of attention in the medical and scientific community in terms of its utility in healing. It is being used in hospitals to help doctors and other health care providers to deal with burnout and stress. It's being used and studied in the workers' compensation arena to help patients transcend the psychological and emotional effects that cause them to have far poorer outcomes than anyone else. It's being used and studied in treating chronic pain, depression and other mental illness, hypertension, cardiac disease, and many other illnesses. Many businesses are seeing the financial benefits of successful meditation programs in the business world. I understand Patrick's cynicism but see it a little differently. Taught properly, meditation should show us how to see clearly and transcend any efforts at control. I recognize this isn't always the case but that is related to the dynamics of the teacher-student relationship more than anything else, IMO. Correct meditation practice is nothing like hypnosis or trance, it is clarifying awareness and cutting through ignorance. 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3bob Posted February 10, 2019 1 hour ago, Zen Pig said: I was looking into esoteric literature on the web, and came across this study published in NIH / Frontiers of Psychology peer reviewed journal about experiences of seeing images in meditation. While they had to keep what little explanation for this phenomena in the realm of the western rational reductionist religious world view, I am amazed that the western world is actually taking meditation seriously to the point of studying it, validating it and publishing findings. Will wonders never cease. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3879457/ was it George Harrisons fault? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rideforever Posted February 10, 2019 The only agenda of these people is to destroy meditation, like they destroy everything else. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zen Pig Posted February 10, 2019 14 minutes ago, rideforever said: The only agenda of these people is to destroy meditation, like they destroy everything else Having worked for several branches of government, including research, I don't think there is some kind of organised conspiratorial program going on, for the simple reason that most government agency's could not find there ass's with both hands. LOL. I do however see how firm our western rational mechanistic belief is. If the researchers did not use accepted verbiage, this study would not get published. But I do tend to agree with your comment that most spiritual things that come to the western world do get corrupted, turned into a profit scam, changed to agree with our preexisting belief system, and so on, until one could not recognize the original teachings, this has happened to Zen, Advaita, shamanism, and other ancient systems. 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Patrick Brown Posted February 10, 2019 31 minutes ago, steve said: of its utility in healing. Steve I agree with you 100% 32 minutes ago, steve said: I understand Patrick's cynicism but see it a little differently. Taught properly, meditation should show us how to see clearly and transcend any efforts at control. I recognize this isn't always the case but that is related to the dynamics of the teacher-student relationship more than anything else, IMO. Correct meditation practice is nothing like hypnosis or trance, it is clarifying awareness and cutting through ignorance. You miss understand me Steve as I agree with what you say but I just don't trust people with money, including governments, to be altruistic. Of course throughout history meditation together with BS teachings have been used by 'some' to control people but I wouldn't say that's the rule. I always see meditation as simply as way to reach a very deep state of relaxation. Others will want more but I don't think there really is anything more other than the mind freeing itself from confusion and perhaps realising, or not, that it's just a phantom! 16 minutes ago, rideforever said: The only agenda of these people is to destroy meditation, like they destroy everything else. Well or to use it as a control mechanism in some way. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
doc benway Posted February 10, 2019 1 hour ago, Zen Pig said: Having worked for several branches of government, including research, I don't think there is some kind of organised conspiratorial program going on, for the simple reason that most government agency's could not find there ass's with both hands. LOL. I do however see how firm our western rational mechanistic belief is. If the researchers did not use accepted verbiage, this study would not get published. But I do tend to agree with your comment that most spiritual things that come to the western world do get corrupted, turned into a profit scam, changed to agree with our preexisting belief system, and so on, until one could not recognize the original teachings, this has happened to Zen, Advaita, shamanism, and other ancient systems. I recently read an interesting presentation and refutation of this Western corruption of Buddhadharma between Dzongsar Jamyang Khyentse Rinpoche and Malcom Smith on Facebook. Misunderstanding, modification, and opportunism in the realm of spirituality is not isolated to the West. Perhaps we are a bit more attuned or sensitive to it here. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Patrick Brown Posted February 10, 2019 (edited) 5 minutes ago, steve said: I recently read an interesting presentation and refutation of this Western corruption of Buddhadharma between Dzongsar Jamyang Khyentse Rinpoche and Malcom Smith on Facebook. Misunderstanding, modification, and opportunism in the realm of spirituality is not isolated to the West. Perhaps we are a bit more attuned or sensitive to it here. Well that'll be the effects of hundreds of years of Christianity!! Edited February 10, 2019 by Patrick Brown Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rideforever Posted February 10, 2019 They seek only to colonise meditation and turn it into an instrument of their dis-organisation. "Buddhism" in the West is hell-of-a degenerated, just like "Yoga" is. But hey, wide is the gate leading to destruction ... and who ... who ever read the words, who even tried. When you are up against the wall, you find out who your friends are, and you find out how many of those around you have any substance within them at all. You find out if you have any substance in you at all. Most are paper thin and are blown away by a breeze. So, let it be that way if God wishes it to be that way. My way is my way, and it is the Great Way. I follow the mountain, I see nothing but the mountain. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
doc benway Posted February 10, 2019 1 hour ago, Patrick Brown said: ... I just don't trust people with money, including governments, to be altruistic. Nor do I. People, with and without money, and governments do both "good" and "bad." To take it a step further, I'll once again paraphrase Anthony Demello - 'most charity and generosity are self-interest disguised as altruism.' While I do don't rule out the possibility of a truly self-less act, it is rare. 1 hour ago, Patrick Brown said: Of course throughout history meditation together with BS teachings have been used by 'some' to control people but I wouldn't say that's the rule. I agree, although I would also agree that it's far more prevalent than I would like. 1 hour ago, Patrick Brown said: I always see meditation as simply as way to reach a very deep state of relaxation. Others will want more but I don't think there really is anything more other than the mind freeing itself from confusion and perhaps realising, or not, that it's just a phantom! I guess you could explain all the potential benefits of meditation in terms of depth of relaxation of the mind but to me that description doesn't do it justice. It's not so much that I want more but I experience far more. Not the least of which is progressive degrees of freedom from confusion and ignorance - not a trivial achievement! 19 minutes ago, Patrick Brown said: Well that'll be the effects of hundreds of years of Christianity!! And then some! The discussion I referenced earlier brought out some interesting historical points in Buddhism. If you have a FB account, it's worth a read. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
doc benway Posted February 10, 2019 22 minutes ago, rideforever said: They seek only to colonise meditation and turn it into an instrument of their dis-organisation. "Buddhism" in the West is hell-of-a degenerated, just like "Yoga" is. As Zen Pig says below, we tend to point to a big bad "they" but I'm not sure "they" are organized enough to really exist in the way such a statement suggests. 2 hours ago, Zen Pig said: Having worked for several branches of government, including research, I don't think there is some kind of organised conspiratorial program going on, for the simple reason that most government agency's could not find there ass's with both hands. LOL. What matters to me is not so much whether Buddhism or Yoga has degenerated in the West but whether my own practice and understanding stays true to the Dharma. Particularly in this age of technology and the global information platform we are using for this very discussion, there is little distinction between East and West. Teachings directly from the source are very easy to access online, not to mention in books and other media. This mixing and blending of East and West is precisely what Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche is so critical of. This myth of not being able to find the "true" Dharma in the West no longer holds today, if it ever did. Sure there are lots of examples of corruption but also many examples of truth and this phenomenon is not limited to the West. The Dharma was always intended to transcend a cultural milieu. As Alan Watts used to say, in many ways Buddhism is Hinduism pared down for export purposes. Looking more closely at Buddhism in India, southeast Asia, China, Japan, and Tibet gives a very good sense of this. There is no reason to limit Buddhism's potential to grow and adapt to the unique cultural environments in the US, Europe, Latin America, and so forth. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rideforever Posted February 10, 2019 Many students of spirituality even after decades of practice do not begin. Why is this ? Because they came to teach, under the guise of learning. A friend of mine told me of a second hand bookseller she had visited in London on Saturday where every book cost at the very least £200 ($250). We are so used to the malnourishment of what is cheap, that we do not even suspect. Most people do not know the truth, and it is better for them that they do not. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Patrick Brown Posted February 10, 2019 26 minutes ago, steve said: I guess you could explain all the potential benefits of meditation in terms of depth of relaxation of the mind but to me that description doesn't do it justice. It's not so much that I want more but I experience far more. Not the least of which is progressive degrees of freedom from confusion and ignorance - not a trivial achievement! Yes, I need to get back into my relaxation/meditation program as I was much more lucid allocating that half an hour everyday (see comment below). 26 minutes ago, steve said: The discussion I referenced earlier brought out some interesting historical points in Buddhism. If you have a FB account, it's worth a read. Just left again today!! I really can't stick the place to be honest as I find it very intrusive. 16 minutes ago, steve said: There is no reason to limit Buddhism's potential to grow and adapt to the unique cultural environments in the US, Europe, Latin America, and so forth. I think you might be right and I like the idea of it being a kind of portable Hinduism. Hinduism just seems to have tied itself up in so many knots and just become incoherent to most people. Ironically Theosophy, even with all it's faults, helped to repair some of the damage. Going back full circle I think many people already accept, in the west, the benefits of meditation but they are as yet to be convinced of the importance of allocating half an hour everyday and doing it, er or not if you get what I'm saying!! 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zen Pig Posted February 10, 2019 2 hours ago, Patrick Brown said: Going back full circle I think many people already accept, in the west, the benefits of meditation but they are as yet to be convinced of the importance of allocating half an hour everyday and doing it, er or not if you get what I'm saying! If meditation works as a way to relax, then that is wonderful. If meditation becomes deeper for others, that is also wonderful. half an hour is also wonderful. hell, 5 min's a day is wonderful. From my experience, and I might be kind of dense, I had to start out with an hour a day, until I worked up to 3 hours a day, every day, but I get that this is not everyone's cup of tea. I always try to relate to what folks feel right doing in the moment. some people like to take a half hour walk several times a week , and they feel better, and have some good health experiences. Others like to hit the gym, run, walk lift weights, do MA for much more time. one is not better than the other. we must find our own balance. simple stuff. Our human tendency is to believe that if we do not have the same experiences as someone else, then by definition, they are delusional, and we are on the right track. We are just walking each other home. good luck 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fa Xin Posted February 10, 2019 I was in a Psych class last week and the teacher stopped what he was doing, shut the lights off and told us to close our eyes and focus on our breath for a few minutes. He also had us do a before and after pulse check. It was a welcome break during the 4 hour class. 😊 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wandelaar Posted February 10, 2019 It is always wise to study a thing before forming an opinion about it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Research_on_meditation The scientific study of meditation is nothing new. But only lately has it become possible to get a clearer picture of what is happening in the human brain when one meditates. There is no rational reason to depreciate scientific research on meditation. 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zen Pig Posted February 10, 2019 8 minutes ago, wandelaar said: It is always wise to study a thing before forming an opinion about it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Research_on_meditation The scientific study of meditation is nothing new. But only lately has it become possible to get a clearer picture of what is happening in the human brain when one meditates. There is no rational reason to depreciate scientific research on meditation. yes, we have been hooking up Tibetan meditators to bio feed back machines since the 70's. I use to work in a biofeedback lab as a tech back in the day. interesting stuff. thanks. My old organic chemistry professor told his new students that if they gave Wikipedia as a reference in there papers, they would get an automatic F. same with YouTube. But thanks for your input. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wandelaar Posted February 10, 2019 Wikipedia is generally a good place to start, and one can find more scholarly information by following the notes and references. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Everything Posted February 11, 2019 (edited) When someone like thomas eddison invents light. It is not because he accidentally stumbled upon a lamp in his scientific research. He was an inspired human being, who followed his passion in life. He set things on fire as a kid, simply because he loved the way it looked at night. And out of his joy and excitement and love for light and desire for new in all the ways that light can be light and expansive, came a lamp. Like the thunder that strucks its light at night. A revelation, of consciousness, as loving light. You just allow your desire to expand as it already exists in this reality. The only research that you need to be researching more is that which is of your love and passion in life. You may have a desire for money. Maybe feel confident and secure in that. Then do research. Follow your FEELING of security and confidence where it already exists. And investigate those things in your life that already FEEL like that security and confidence, always right here and now, fully available for your further investigation of them. So investigate them! They will lead to the more of it, beyond your minds ability to comprehend, unless you investigate those things that already do feel good to you. You can discover your own wealth that way. But you ask yourself what you want and how it feels. Just like thomas edisson did that for himself all of his life. That is how a scientist should investigate their desires. Allow the heart to identify the object of investigation. And imagination is a good place to start, to find the feeling of your passion and desire and love. But your imagination is not designed to show you the actual true reality of it and how it will be so. So don't ask it to do that. Then you'll be good on your way to what feels more like that. And how it will happen is the way you actually want it to happen. Edited February 11, 2019 by Everything 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Everything Posted February 11, 2019 (edited) So often people don't even get to the point of asking themselves what they want in life. What truely drops their jaw in life? And when they do, they say, well... Lets say I am an angry person. It goes something like this. "I want God to get up from his lazy ass and out of his throne and come down here and appologize to me personally!" They imagine this, ahh... Well, that would be nice eyh? That does feel better. But in reality it may not actually be what you want. But that is not the point. The point is you allow yourself to feel better. Then ask yourself why it feels better to go even further into imagining your greater desire. This path always leads to joy. For example, I want god to do that to fix everything. Cause then I can relax and enjoy life! Why do I want that? Cause then I'm forever free and all is well and taken care of. And I can be relaxed. All that you think you want is simply because you think you will feel better in the having of it. That is also the point of the imagination, to inspire the feeling within you. That's it! Now you know why imagination exists. Now you think about feeling relaxed and doing whatever you want to do. Freedom. You feel that relaxed care free freedom. You look around in your life or physical reality. You ask, what is already here, right here and now, that already feels like that care free freedom? Listening to music. Dancing. Playing video games. Watching movie. Riding bike outdoors doing wheelies. Go karting. Whatever it is. It already exists. And if you follow the trail of your joy! Eventually, on your path, you will come across God. And you will say, well, you are all that I imagined and ever more. Ever so more than all that I could ever possibly have imagined you to be. So good I have my heart to do all the heavy lifting for me in showing a direct path towards all that you are! Edited February 11, 2019 by Everything 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeform Posted February 11, 2019 (edited) Good discussion. I would just like to point out the classical view that what we tend to call ‘meditation’ is actually just preparatory mental training (mindfulness etc). Very important and useful stuff - but it’s best to differentiate Eastern mental training from the spiritual discipline of meditation (which is of absolutely no use (or even accessible) for 99.9% of the population.) PS - I understand this comment goes against what we’re generally told - and what I used to believe. Edited February 11, 2019 by freeform 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Patrick Brown Posted February 11, 2019 16 minutes ago, freeform said: Good discussion. I would just like to point out the classical view that what we tend to call ‘meditation’ is actually just preparatory mental training (mindfulness etc). Very important and useful stuff - but it’s best to differentiate Eastern mental training from the spiritual discipline of meditation (which is of absolutely no use (or even accessible) for 99.9% of the population.) PS - I understand this comment goes against what we’re generally told - and what I used to believe. Yes and no! I think we can differentiate between relaxing and deep meditation but we should always consider that some people happen upon deep meditation without really knowing what they are doing. We should also consider that there are degrees and the lines can be blurred between resting, the fragmentation of the mind and the cessation of the internal dialogue. Hey I'm no expert, although I do dabble, but surely the flower opens in it's own good time? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rideforever Posted February 11, 2019 9 hours ago, Everything said: This path always leads to joy. Your path seems to lead to a lot of porn use and self destruction, whilst telling yourself in your brain that you are having great joy. 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Everything Posted February 11, 2019 (edited) 22 minutes ago, rideforever said: Your path seems to lead to a lot of porn use and self destruction, whilst telling yourself in your brain that you are having great joy. Yes exactly! My brain is connected to my heart. So I love danger and I love being wild! I love facing my fears and not even looking at them. I love accidents. They are not accidents. They are co created incidents. Everything in life is dangerous to me! If I talk to you, I might have a heart attack at any moment! What do I say? I have lived a good life =d You too? I hope so! You will never be this you, ever again! Enjoy it Go wild be free be good crazy. Be whoever you feel the need you need to be in every moment. Jump in icecold water in the middle of winter, for no freaking reason other than you can! Freeeeeeedom! I am officially jaw dropped. Edited February 11, 2019 by Everything 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
