I am officially jaw dropped amazed.

[Patrick Brown]

21 minutes ago, rideforever said:

 

Your path seems to lead to a lot of porn use and self destruction, whilst telling yourself in your brain that you are having great joy.

 

[Everything]

28 minutes ago, rideforever said:

 

Your path seems to lead to a lot of porn use and self destruction, whilst telling yourself in your brain that you are having great joy.

 

[Guest ezza]

I'm more surprised that psychedelic research has been on the rise lately (and is continuining to advance)

If they manage to bring them back into clinical use there will be a lot of big pharma companies losing out on fat $$$

 

Great to see that some things are moving in a better direction!

[rideforever]

22 minutes ago, Everything said:

Be whoever you feel the need you need to be in every moment.

 

Exactly, you have absolutely no clue whatsoever who or what you are.

And you "approach" will certainly make this worse, much worse.

Why not head to Hollywood, at least you can make some money out of your self-dis-membering..

[freeform]

2 hours ago, Patrick Brown said:

we should always consider that some people happen upon deep meditation without really knowing what they are doing.

 

This really depends on your definition of ‘meditation’.

 

There are many profound states of consciousness that occur before ‘meditation’ does.

 

It is said that entering Jhana (beginning of actual meditation) can only be accomplished in any stable way with the direct help of a master that has achieved this state already.

[Patrick Brown]

4 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

This really depends on your definition of ‘meditation’.

 

There are many profound states of consciousness that occur before ‘meditation’ does.

 

It is said that entering Jhana (beginning of actual meditation) can only be accomplished in any stable way with the direct help of a master that has achieved this state already.

 

Nothing wrong with learning new tricks!

 

Quote

In the oldest texts of Buddhism, dhyāna (Sanskrit) or jhāna (Pali) is the training of the mind, commonly translated as meditation, to withdraw the mind from the automatic responses to sense-impressions, and leading to a "state of perfect equanimity and awareness (upekkhii-sati-piirisuddhl)."^[1] Dhyana may have been the core practice of pre-sectarian Buddhism, in combination with several related practices which together lead to perfected mindfulness and detachment, and are fully realized with the practice of dhyana.^[2][3][4]

 

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhyāna_in_Buddhism

 

[Zen Pig]

16 minutes ago, freeform said:

This really depends on your definition of ‘meditation’

Well, maybe if we think that, then ok........  I do not define meditation.  I just sit.

I also walk the hills in our valley.  hell, I sometimes get lost in looking at a puddle of rain water. (seen some freaky shit that way) 

 

I have seen so many people who rationalize why they "don't need to meditate" or why "meditation is not important", and that is fine.  As the late great Shunryu Suzuki use to say, "Do or Do Not, there is no Try"  (sorry to disappoint star wars fans,  Yoda was not the one to coin this saying), So if one does not think meditation or sitting or this kind of path is important, then that is also fine.  Hell, dance, play a sport, go for a long run. Have a good old fashion roll in the hay with the one you love.  that is living in the moment!  its all the same after a while. IMO.  

[Everything]

29 minutes ago, Patrick Brown said:

 

Nothing wrong with learning new tricks!

 

 

Yeah I paid some money for an official meditation lesson. 

 

And boy oh boy, that dude his entire life is meditation. He lives and breaths meditation. He made an entire ceremony of my first meditation. He has countless of things about meditation. He loves nature his entire house is like the inside of a tree. He lives like an elderly elf. And how the mind drops into pure bliss consciousness. It is pretty helpful. To get very simple instructions. The dude is like elderly and he was more excited about my meditation than anything else. Holy moly. He even dreamed an entire dream of my entire future the day before my first meditation with him. He was that excited about my meditation. The dude had more energy than me. He is like a five year old in a 80 years old body. 

He was so excited about my meditation, and all I did was just sit and focus on mantra. And then after 20 minutes. That's it. Well done. Good work. You got this! 

 

Internally say the mantra. Whatever it might be. Blaaaaaa blaaaaa. Ohhhmmmmm. Ohmmmm. 

 

Mantaaaaa. Mantaaaaa. 

 

Taaa looooo taaa looo. 

 

Anything that has no meaning to it necessarily. They even hand out mantras. 

 

And there was even images of bliss consciousness dream like realities. Like teachers of meditation that proudly stand next to a waterfal in utter joy. 

 

Reminds me of purity and simplicity. 

 

If you have a difficult time focusing due to allot of distracting thoughts. You can even count your breath. 1... 2... 3...

To occupy your mind untill the mind begins to naturally rest into thought free mode. 

 

And just listen to the sound of your own inner voice speaking the mantra internally like you would read a book. For 20 minutes untill you just enter your natural state of thought free awareness and well being health clarity returns automatically. 

 

It's so simple. 

 

But the key is consistency. So 2 times 20 minutes. Morning after waking up and before going to sleep.

 

That is always possible to remember! So easy and takes so little of your time and the benefits are literally maxed out, 100% by just waking and before sleep 20 minute. A great balance to have in once life. A great habbit. A very good healthy habbit. Benefits health, mental health, physical health. Emotional health. 

 

And it requires so little time and the effects are jaw dropping. Especially emotionally for me it was extremely noticable. I felt better than ever. And this made me very clear of mind. Very clear! Like my mind became pure water, simply counting my breath for 20 minutes. Thats it. Or listening to my mantra. Or placing my attention on my breathing. 

 

Also just looking at the ground or water. And becoming aware of your sense of sight. Thought pops up, you place your attention gently back on to your observing your visual experience. No thought just attention of your sight experience. And eventually, poofffff.... Pfffgggggg.... Pure bliss... So easy so simple. Works all the time. 

 

Meditation is the most easy thing one can do. And it is universal to all. For everything. Wether you are in psychosis and terror, and you focu on a visual image of something that catches your attention and is completely unrelated just random, like a red alluminum. And just focus on it untill clarity pops back. Or you are simple enjoying the morning breeze as you wake up. It's all good. 

Edited February 11, 2019 by Everything

[Patrick Brown]

1 minute ago, Zen Pig said:

Well, maybe if we think that, then ok........  I do not define meditation.  I just sit.

I also walk the hills in our valley.  hell, I sometimes get lost in looking at a puddle of rain water. (seen some freaky shit that way) 

 

I have seen so many people who rationalize why they "don't need to meditate" or why "meditation is not important", and that is fine.  As the late great Shunryu Suzuki use to say, "Do or Do Not, there is no Try"  (sorry to disappoint star wars fans,  Yoda was not the one to coin this saying), So if one does not think meditation or sitting or this kind of path is important, then that is also fine.  Hell, dance, play a sport, go for a long run. Have a good old fashion roll in the hay with the one you love.  that is living in the moment!  its all the same after a while. IMO.  

 

Although I respect others and their scientific view of meditation I see it the same as you Pig. Keep it spontaneous and undefined then it may be possible to truly be, or not to be, doing ZaZen, yep even when running for the bus or quoting Shakespeare! 

[Patrick Brown]

8 minutes ago, Everything said:

But the key is consistency. So 2 times 20 minutes. Morning after waking up and before going to sleep.

 

That is always possible to remember! A great balance to have in once life. A great habbit. A very good healthy habbit. Benefits health, mental health, physical health. Emotional health. 

 

And it requires so little time and the effects are jaw dropping. Especially emotionally for me it was extremely noticable. I felt better than ever. And this made me very clear of mind. Very clear! Like my mind became pure water, simply counting my breath for 20 minutes. Thats it. Or listening to my mantra. Or placing my attention on my breathing. 

 

Meditation is the most easy thing one can do. And it is universal to all. For everything. 

 

Nice. 

[Zen Pig]

5 minutes ago, Everything said:

But the key is consistency. So 2 times 20 minutes. Morning after waking up and before going to sleep.

The breaking up of short term meditation has been of interest to me.  From my experience, for the first few years of sitting, it is difficult to really get into an open state in 20 minutes,  and I had to start with around 40 or 45 min's if I remember correctly,  and work to an hour, at first.  this longer time helped me drop into what ever I needed to drop into.

But maybe folks who do 20 min's do just fine.  I suppose it is different for different folks, but if one is having trouble letting go, or getting into the so called zone,  then I would suggest trying to connect the two 20 min sitting times into a 40 min to start.  got to be able to play with it. 

[Everything]

6 minutes ago, Zen Pig said:

The breaking up of short term meditation has been of interest to me.  From my experience, for the first few years of sitting, it is difficult to really get into an open state in 20 minutes,  and I had to start with around 40 or 45 min's if I remember correctly,  and work to an hour, at first.  this longer time helped me drop into what ever I needed to drop into.

But maybe folks who do 20 min's do just fine.  I suppose it is different for different folks, but if one is having trouble letting go, or getting into the so called zone,  then I would suggest trying to connect the two 20 min sitting times into a 40 min to start.  got to be able to play with it. 

Yeah ofcourse. It completely is all good. Sometimes people just get so distracted by life, they forget how beneficial meditation is. Because it is so simple and subtle. We forget. So making a habbit with awakening and before going to sleep, is a very good habbit. So that you just can't forget anymore. Because its just a habbit. You know? 

 

People go years without meditation, even tho they learned it. Because they simply forgot to make a habbit out of it in the most important moments of your life. Before going to sleep and right when you wake up. When you come fresh out of your non-physical greater consciousness. 

 

Eventually you just wake up and you meditate in bliss cause you just are so used to it and it just feels so good! To wake up and be excited to be awake! Because you're gonna meditate! I mean. Best life ever! 

 

But ofcourse it doesnt matter. People can meditate whole day if they wish. I love that! Infact. I'm going to do it now. 

Edited February 11, 2019 by Everything

[Patrick Brown]

4 minutes ago, Everything said:

Yeah ofcourse. It completely is all good. Sometimes people just get so distracted by life, they forget how beneficial meditation is.

 

This happens to me a lot!!

[freeform]

2 minutes ago, Zen Pig said:

I would suggest trying to connect the two 20 min sitting times into a 40 min to start.

 

I agree with that.

 

I also agree that sitting practice is of great help to the majority of people.

 

There are some people for whom spiritual cultivation is their main purpose in life - for them, having a very clear understanding of specific terms and what they point to is of paramount importance.

 

‘Meditation’ is one such term and it’s a very advanced practice that most people don’t get to - let alone cultivate further than just the start.

 

Which is more than ok!

 

I certainly haven’t managed real meditation yet.

 

You can cook a damn fine meal without being a Michellin star chef. In fact most people prefer a nice home-made meal to fine gastronomy.

 

Even though I’ve had all sorts of profound ‘awakenings’, I’m becoming more and more aware of how short they fall from what meditation really is. Nothing wrong with that - it’s just helpful to be aware of it, if spiritual cultivation is your life’s work.

[Everything]

6 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

I agree with that.

 

I also agree that sitting practice is of great help to the majority of people.

 

There are some people for whom spiritual cultivation is their main purpose in life - for them, having a very clear understanding of specific terms and what they point to is of paramount importance.

 

‘Meditation’ is one such term and it’s a very advanced practice that most people don’t get to - let alone cultivate further than just the start.

 

Which is more than ok!

 

I certainly haven’t managed real meditation yet.

 

You can cook a damn fine meal without being a Michellin star chef. In fact most people prefer a nice home-made meal to fine gastronomy.

 

Even though I’ve had all sorts of profound ‘awakenings’, I’m becoming more and more aware of how short they fall from what meditation really is. Nothing wrong with that - it’s just helpful to be aware of it, if spiritual cultivation is your life’s work.

Yes! What you say! Sitting. So important to be comfortable. And often people fall asleep when they lie down in meditation. So be comfortable, but awake. Relaxed. Sitting seems to be very helpful yes. 

 

I never fell asleep when I was sitting in my meditation. And that is the benefit of being fully aware of how it feels like to be in that resistance free, state of being, that you can then take with you throughout your whole day. 

 

It's like. Here I am God, All That Is! I am here now fully allowing you to flow through me. My soul, I am now here, thought free, fully open, and allowing, to receive higher guidance and inspiration. Allowing. The highest. Most supreme benefit into my life. Fully. 

 

Amen. Meditation is blessed. No wonder Jesus made chairs. 

[Everything]

Actually, my most advanced experiences with non-physical consciousness, was when I meditated that day over 90 minutes. And the days before that aswell. 

 

I was in that I am awareness. Remember it like yesterday. Home alone. Looking at the wall, being aware of what I see. Untill images started to appear. Oh god, the best experiences of my life came after that. God was with me all the way. Every step along the way. I live for that. What else can a human even want. Inspired living. Being in spirit. Connected to spirit. Soul essence of all life. Core essence of who we really are. 

 

I was so devestated when I lost that. Thinking I did something wrong. Thinking I could no longer feel god because I did something wrong. When it was just meditation that allowed me to connect with who I really am, and acces all that is through my own soul awareness. It was so subtle and so simple. To think that people can forget about meditation. 

 

Makes me sad. I forgot about it too. I never want that. Ever again. 

 

Since it is the only way one can ever allow their soul experience in their life. Why wait untill you die. When you know the value of who you really are. Why wait. Why ever wait. Why ever search. When it has been within you all of the time. Allow it to be. And nurture your receiving of your own greater consciousness. Simply letting go of thought. Enjoying the moment. Untill God speaks again. And you hear it all clearly again. And life makes sense again. Because you deserve to live that way forever. And ever. 

Edited February 11, 2019 by Everything

[kyoji]

9 minutes ago, Everything said:

Actually, my most advanced experiences with non-physical consciousness, was when I meditated that day over 90 minutes. And the days before that aswell. 

 

I was in that I am awareness. Oh god, the best experiences of my life came after that. God was with me all the way. Every step along the way. I live for that. What else can a human even want. 

 

I was so devestated when I lost that. Thinking I did something wrong. When it was just meditation that allowed me to connect with who I really am, and acces all that is through my own soul awareness. 

It can feel like you are locked out of heaven once the monkey mind gets ahold of the experience on the come down, can't it?

[doc benway]

21 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

I agree with that.

 

I also agree that sitting practice is of great help to the majority of people.

 

There are some people for whom spiritual cultivation is their main purpose in life - for them, having a very clear understanding of specific terms and what they point to is of paramount importance.

 

‘Meditation’ is one such term and it’s a very advanced practice that most people don’t get to - let alone cultivate further than just the start.

 

Which is more than ok!

 

I certainly haven’t managed real meditation yet.

 

You can cook a damn fine meal without being a Michellin star chef. In fact most people prefer a nice home-made meal to fine gastronomy.

 

Even though I’ve had all sorts of profound ‘awakenings’, I’m becoming more and more aware of how short they fall from what meditation really is. Nothing wrong with that - it’s just helpful to be aware of it, if spiritual cultivation is your life’s work.

 

Meditation is simply an English word which can be more or less arbitrarily mapped to any number of words in other languages.

Multiple people in this very thread are using it to mean different things.

I don't find that very helpful in terms of clear communication.

 

In a similar vein, the word "awakening" can be used in a very arbitrary way. If you've had "all sorts of profound 'awakenings,'" none of which approach your definition of meditation, I would question just how profound and awake those experiences were. They certainly wouldn't qualify as "awakening" in my use of the word. And that's OK, coming from such disparate backgrounds and traditions, we don't and perhaps can't all agree on defining such terms.

 

I would suggest we use the word meditation in a more general sense to encompass the practices, both simple and complex, rather than to denote a single particular state or achievement that is nearly impossible for a mere mortal to attain. In this way, we are less likely to discourage those coming to the practice as beginners who need encouragement and support rather than showing them Mt. Everest and giving them a walking stick and pair of sandals.

 

Not trying to be critical, just some food for thought.

 

[Everything]

19 minutes ago, kyoji said:

It can feel like you are locked out of heaven once the monkey mind gets ahold of the experience on the come down, can't it?

Yeah. Eventually you get medication and realise it simulates meditation. Medication is like meditation for lazy. 

Like sleep is some form of meditation. Or death experience I assume as the expansive freedom it is bound to. 

 

Why wait for all those things. One can sleep their entire life. And it will be comfortable. But to realise and remember how much we actually wanted to be fully awake and aware and consciously connected to our non-physical consciousness even whilest fully in this body and well and alife. And live in perfect co blended co created harmony. What can ever be better than that! What greater freedom than inspired action! What greater truth is there then the greatest truth every single moment expanding forevermore. Through you, as you, with you, together. As one. Love. Forever. We always look for that love outside of ourselves. It has always already been within us. Waiting for us to recognize it again. And then walk hand in hand, physical and non-physical to endless eternal experiences of that love forevermore. Wherever we are. Whoever we are. Whenever we are. Whyever we are. Everything is known. And loved. For whoever you are. Whyever you are. It is all known. By boundless infinite intelligence. Nothing is off limits. We are all children of the loving light of our greater consciousness of who we really are. We are all children of the greatest all that is, of God ever expanding and calling us forth evermore to evermore of all the more of all that we can ever possibly ask for. 

 

If it takes 8 years meditation, then I meditate 16 years. If it takes 16 years then I meditate 32 years! Untill my throat itches and bursts and god speaks through me again! Untill my feet taps because I have a purpose to live! And now I finally know what it is! Untill I croak, because god seeps into every inch of my every vein.

Edited February 11, 2019 by Everything

[Zen Pig]

18 minutes ago, steve said:

If you've had "all sorts of profound 'awakenings,'" none of which approach your definition of meditation, I would question just how profound and awake those experiences were. They certainly wouldn't qualify as "awakening" in my use of the word. And that's OK, coming from such disparate backgrounds and traditions, we don't and perhaps can't all agree on defining such terms.

yes, this is precisely why I try to shy away from words like "awakened or enlightened". 

In my limited experience,  it so far seems that our journey is on going and infinite.  without a destination or a final goal. 

 

I have also seen many folks who have had some kind of experience, or experiences, and once they claim, "I am there, I made it, I am done",  there ego starts to re-emerge taking control of what might have been a deep experience,   and they end up being douchebags.  IMO

 

Lastly,  I personalty don't try to judge some else's idea of an "awaking experience" and I try not to comment on my personal experiences.  this way leads to useless argument. 

Kind of like arguing on what chicken  taste like.  we all agree on the word "chicken" for the most part,  but we all can never know exactly how someone else experiences the taste of chicken.  that's probably why some folks like it and some don't.   

[freeform]

26 minutes ago, steve said:

In a similar vein, the word "awakening" can be used in a very arbitrary way. If you've had "all sorts of profound 'awakenings,'" none of which approach your definition of meditation,

 

You're quite right - I wasn’t being precise with terminology.

 

I did think that ‘awakenings’, particularly the use of the plural term would make it obvious that these were various short term experiences.

 

They each have their specific terms such as Nei Guan, Zhi Guan And other various states of absorption like Ting. But I didn’t think they’d mean much to most, or further the conversation.

 

26 minutes ago, steve said:

we are less likely to discourage those coming to the practice as beginners who need encouragement and support rather than showing them Mt. Everest and giving them a walking stick and pair of sandals.

 

I strongly disagree here. Most people in their excitement shoot for the top of Mt Everest, but die on the way because they’re simply not prepared for the undertaking.

 

In the same way I actually think that people should (in general) be actively discouraged from spiritual practice.

[doc benway]

1 hour ago, Zen Pig said:

yes, this is precisely why I try to shy away from words like "awakened or enlightened". 

In my limited experience,  it so far seems that our journey is on going and infinite.  without a destination or a final goal. 

Agreed

One of my primary objections to using the word ‘meditation’ as some specific and extreme experience  or state is that it sets up an expectation, a duality, a goal. It gives the impression that there is a need for enormous effort. This is the antithesis of the ‘dropping in’ or ‘opening up’ to what is always already there. This sort of goal oriented behavior becomes a major obstacle to the very experience of meditation as Freeform is using the word.

 

1 hour ago, Zen Pig said:

 

I have also seen many folks who have had some kind of experience, or experiences, and once they claim, "I am there, I made it, I am done",  there ego starts to re-emerge taking control of what might have been a deep experience,   and they end up being douchebags.  IMO

 Very true

 

1 hour ago, Zen Pig said:

 

Lastly,  I personalty don't try to judge some else's idea of an "awaking experience" and I try not to comment on my personal experiences.  this way leads to useless argument. 

Agreed, for me this also applies to meditative experiences.

[doc benway]

1 hour ago, freeform said:

 

You're quite right - I wasn’t being precise with terminology.

 

I did think that ‘awakenings’, particularly the use of the plural term would make it obvious that these were various short term experiences.

 

They each have their specific terms such as Nei Guan, Zhi Guan And other various states of absorption like Ting. But I didn’t think they’d mean much to most, or further the conversation.

 

Yes, it’s not so much about what means what to whom. The point is we can only experience our own stuff and those experiences will affect each of us in unique ways.

 

Quote

I strongly disagree here. Most people in their excitement shoot for the top of Mt Everest, but die on the way because they’re simply not prepared for the undertaking.

I’m happy to disagree here.

 

Approaching meditation as an accessible and ‘no big deal’ practice that can have healing and supportive effects is enough for most people and valuable to most. This gives them an easy in and easy out. It lets them see for themselves what the benefits are and whether they should dig deep. That should always be a personal choice. Treating it as some distant and wondrous goal is more likely to cause the excitement you describe, IMO.

On the other hand, sometimes failing is precisely what people need to learn and grow. I try not to judge for others, it’s their life.

 

 

Quote

In the same way I actually think that people should (in general) be actively discouraged from spiritual practice.

I take a different tack. I generally do not presume to know what someone else needs in their life, particularly when it comes to spiritual growth. Sometimes, I have doubt as to what I need, let alone others. I tend to take a position of support and encouragement if someone has chosen to tread a particular path but I would never try and push someone if they were undecided. They need to open the door and step through, then I’m happy to help if I can.

[Fa Xin]

7 hours ago, freeform said:

Good discussion.

 

I would just like to point out the classical view that what we tend to call ‘meditation’ is actually just preparatory mental training (mindfulness etc).

 

Very important and useful stuff - but it’s best to differentiate Eastern mental training from the spiritual discipline of meditation (which is of absolutely no use (or even accessible) for 99.9% of the population.)

 

PS - I understand this comment goes against what we’re generally told - and what I used to believe.

 

Can you give an example of the spiritual discipline kind? I imagine the prepatory stuff is like watching the breath or being present. What’s the other side to it? Thanks 

[freeform]

53 minutes ago, Fa Xin said:

 

Can you give an example of the spiritual discipline kind? I imagine the prepatory stuff is like watching the breath or being present. What’s the other side to it? Thanks 

 

Yes the preparatory stuff is vipassana, metta, mindfulness, watching the breath, sitting forgetting, heart-mind fasting etc. As well as other less well known mental training disciplines.

 

As well as building the foundations for spiritual practice, these are all useful for general well-being, attention, focus, relaxation, clear thinking, increasing discipline and will etc. This is what I’d recommend to most people. There’s a lifetimes worth of practice in this category.

 

The spiritual practices are the various Jhana practices (there are Daoist counterparts). The higher levels of alchemy... entering and abiding in Shen Ming... Tai Ding (samadhi concentration) and many other higher level practices (like Yuan Yu)

 

There are many Ming (karmic) implications of initiating someone into real spiritual practice (whether through teaching or through transmission) when it’s not right for the person. 

 

The spiritual practices can can be quite dangerous. There are many accidental deaths, suicides and psychotic breakdowns in this arena.

 

Thats why I tend to dissuade people in shooting for these levels of practice. The ones who’re really dedicated and ready for them will usually get to them despite this