What is faith?

[DentyDao]

What is faith to you?

 

What does, would or did it take for you to believe in something?

 

Faith and Doubt...

Edited February 15, 2008 by seandenty

[DentyDao]

[Smile]

It's what I can see with clear mind unobstructed by feelings, emotions, desires, knowledge or others' opinions.

[Cameron]

Adyashanti said somewhere reality is reality even if you don't believe in it(or something like that).

 

Though, in a way, to even say that sort of implies a deep faith in what the nature of reality is I guess.

 

I look at it as truth is truth is truth. I don't know that I need to have faith in or believe in truth, it JUST IS.

 

There is a saying in Zen you either need great faith or great dougt and these are represented in the 2 major schools of Japanese Zen, Soto and Rinzai.

 

In Soto, you have great faith. You believe from the beginning you are already a Buddha and sitting zazen is a process of revealing this inherent Buddhahood.

 

In Rinzai Zen, you have great doubt. This is where koan study and very dramatic zen stories of students losing limbs or getting beaten by there teacher or running up a tree and holding on to a branch with a tiger circling underneath and then seeing a strawberry and two mice are eating away the branch etc.

 

Rinzai Zen you use your doubt and Soto Zen you use your faith. Zen makes good use out of both those energies to reveal truth.

 

In a way I can sense how doubt and faith are both a powerful energy. If either of those energies cause you to practice I don't really think one is better than the other.

 

I mean, did Buddha have great doubt or great faith? Did he really know where he was going or what he was looking for? As the story goes, he was sick of life at the palace and had a deep uneasiness after finding out about death and wanted to get to the bottom of it. I don't know that great faith is what drove Buddha, maybe it was great doubt.

[hagar]

Taking your example of logical positivism into account, one critique is that this theory, as it was developed in the most extreme analytical philosophy sects at Balliol College in Oxford, is a form of secularized faith: the blind faith in reason founded on method and deduction of facts is as good a faith as any. The old (x) is god, the new is scientific method.

 

Personally, I feel that doubt has alot more potential than faith. Doubt hurts more.

 

h

[宁]

faith is what makes you do a good job. it's trust in yourself, mainly.

you could say it's trust in others or something else, but basically it's just you.

 

hope is faith's death, is when you hope something else will save you.

and hope is also the beginning of doubt, you dont really know if you can be saved or not.

 

doubt is what makes you do a lousy job, whatever you do

until doubt is cleared out, you'd better just stay put and just quiet down

 

 

these are really just basic prerequisites of the training i've learned on my path,

i wonder why nobody talks about this

 

EDIT: trust is when you and your work is aligned with nature's way, and you are sustained from within by it

Edited February 15, 2008 by Little1

[Ian]

Faith is what allows you to trust that if you stop directing and supervising stuff, it will be ok.

 

It could be characterised as an acceptance that universe is not hostile, or it could just be a recognition that things couldn't get any worse, regardless.

 

Faith involves leaving the thinking mind. Faith makes you able to jump into the doubt. Faith is a gift.

 

Still waiting, personally, though I've had a few tastes.

[mwight]

Edited February 15, 2008 by mwight

[gendao]

Seems faith is a substitute for belief.

And belief is a substitute for knowing.

 

So, ultimately we seek knowing.

But lacking that, we may sometimes have to rely on belief or faith.

[Wayfarer64]

I think that faith is a vivid hope or fear, and the origin of folly. A wise person goes by knowledge not hope or fear.

 

I need no faith in outside forces, beliefs or structures, the whole of life's realm may be found within ourselves -if we make the effort to investigate ourselves with an open mind and open heart.

 

All may be revealed to each of us if we are ready to accept the deep pains and exquisite joys of becoming realized...

 

I have some faith in the sound/feel of truth being revealed to my ears and eyes, which may be confused with knowledge, that is my current stumbling block.

 

Those who would deceive me tell me truths to beguile and lead me off my own true path; where the blossoming of my own (well) being through internal searching and meditative quietude has always been expanded...

 

I have had reason to keep faith as if it were knowledge, in my inner resolve to master myself... even as I know it is only the unraveling of illusions...

 

So for me faith is merely something to spur investigation, until shown/ revealed as truth (or not) - as the case may be...

[grace3]

faith is what makes you do a good job. it's trust in yourself, mainly.

you could say it's trust in others or something else, but basically it's just you.

 

hope is faith's death, is when you hope something else will save you.

and hope is also the beginning of doubt, you dont really know if you can be saved or not.

 

doubt is what makes you do a lousy job, whatever you do

until doubt is cleared out, you'd better just stay put and just quiet down

these are really just basic prerequisites of the training i've learned on my path,

i wonder why nobody talks about this

 

EDIT: trust is when you and your work is aligned with nature's way, and you are sustained from within by it

 

 

Greetings - faith is what keeps us humming.

[doc benway]

What is faith to you?

 

What does, would or did it take for you to believe in something?

 

Faith and Doubt...

I'm going to speak of faith in the sense of religious faith - a belief in something in the absence of or contrary to available proof. I am not speaking of confidence or love.

 

This type of faith to me is a weakness. It's a desire to follow an authority in the absence of knowing. A need to believe in something gratuitously, with no possibility of verification. An unwillingness to question or doubt.

Faith is something used by those with authority to exploit others. It is a mechanism by which people can be manipulated.

 

I try not to believe in things. If I can know something, there is no need for belief. If I cannot know something, belief is superfluous and is usually of little value. I'd prefer to know or remain agnostic and doubt, until the opportunity to know arises. If you investigate the process of thought very deeply and patiently over time, most things can be know and there is little need or benefit for faith and belief.

 

Just my limited view... I don't intend to offend or insult any one.

[DentyDao]

This Q&A struck me as insightful...

 

Question: I find it difficult to believe in a personal God. In fact I find it impossible. But I can believe in an impersonal God, a divine force which rules and guides the world, and it would be a great help to me, even in my work of healing, if this faith were increased. May I know how to increase this faith?

 

Sri Ramana Maharshi: Faith is in things unknown, but the Self is self-evident. Even the greatest egotist cannot deny his own existence, that is to say, cannot deny the Self. You can call the ultimate reality by whatever name you like and say that you have faith in it or love for it, but who is there who will not have faith in his own existence or love for himself? That is because faith and love are our real nature.

[宁]

it's the same as what harry said about injecting experince thru initiation. some say david did that too, when he came to our country and visited some orthodox monk... an injection of faith...

[sheng zhen]

According to Ken Wilbers theory people can generally be divided into three groups of developement: prepersonal, personal and transpersonal. I find this view very helpful when it comes to understanding different aspects of a discussion. And its fun to see the dynamics between them.

 

For the prepersonal faith would be blind faith because this is what the group or religion demands. They are the religious majority. This includes faith in science.

 

For the personal faith is replaced with doubt, and any kind of faith would even be laughed away as childish or foolish. These are the sceptics.

 

For the transpersonal faith would be based on direct experience with what they have faith in, if it is God, the Dao, etc. These are the mystics.

 

Its interesting to see these three personalities discussing what faith means in seandentys introductory post. The transpersonal will never come through with his message because it demans to much experience to really understand what he talkes about. The prepersonal might believe him and just take his word for it, but the personal will look at it as just another prepersonal kind of faith. The personal will never get through with his message because faith is true to both prepersonal and transpersonal anyways. And the personal will never get through with his messange to anyone outside of his group or religion.

[Uncle Fester]

.

Edited September 19, 2021 by darebak

[dao zhen]

Faith........

 

If we look in the English language dictionary we may find.........

 

~ Confidence or trust in a person or thing.

~ Belief that is not based on proof.

~ Belief in God, the Supreme Creative Force, or in the doctrines or teachings of religion.

~ Belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit.

~ A system of religious belief.

~ The obligation of loyalty or fidelity to a person, promise, engagement.

~ The observance of this obligation; fidelity to one's promise, oath or allegiance.

 

In the view from Taoist Internal Alchemy Doctrine, we may see that faith depends upon faithlessness for its existence and relative being.

 

Faith here is the element of Earth, which is a fundamental or foundational essence of the Golden Mean.

 

Tao gives birth to all universal things and also is contained within all universal things.

 

The Tao that is contained within is called the Golden Mean or Te (in Chinese) and actually serves a function much like the source of spring water or the root of a tree.

 

It is much like the nucleus that gives forth the other Four Virtues of benevolence, righteousness, propriety, and enlightened wisdom.

 

Yang Earth represents the True Heart.

 

Yin Earth represents the False Heart.

 

The False Heart is characterized by discrimination, attachment, and deluded thoughts.

 

Under such circumstances, the original True Heart - faith- becomes obscured, and the False Heart - faithlessness - gradually prevails.

 

Tao occupies neither of the two sides, nor the middle position between them, nor any other possible location.