Michael Sternbach Posted March 4, 2019 (edited) Nungali, First off, while I was surprised, I really appreciated your kind consideration of the ideas presented in my thread so far. For awhile, it seemed like we could actually continue to have a fruitful discussion about this topic. Looks like you have been fully restored to your usual scornful self now, though... Very well... I am going to deal with some of your objections, however, with a few reservation. For one thing, I may leave going further into certain topics to the proposed subsequent threads. If you are not sure what I mean, review my OP and remember that I put 'part 1' in this thread's header for a reason. More in general, please remember that I started this thread to inspire the reader and to stimulate their imagination, and I won't let it turn into another Karate sparring match! However, if you insist on the latter, you are very welcome to visit me here in Switzerland, and we will look for a suitable spot in my yard... That said, let me take a closer look at your most recent posts next. Edited March 4, 2019 by Michael Sternbach Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michael Sternbach Posted March 4, 2019 (edited) On 3.3.2019 at 1:08 AM, Nungali said: What basic idea ? That continents sink without a trace on the sea floor ... all during the ages after the emergence of Homo Sapiens ? Nobody said without a trace. However, as I said, I would like to postbone this discussion at least until I'm done with the respective chapter of Atlantis - Atlantology: Basic Problems by Russian geologist N. Zhirov. Quote Even Zealandia has left evidence Aha! The 'future science' ploy , eh ? Then we should discuss that ' tomorrow ' .... 'when' it happens As far as I am concerned, we can discuss speculative ideas. I was simply referring to the fact that many scientific concepts are ridiculed initially, but find general recognition eventually. Not that I usually felt inclined to wait for that... Edited March 4, 2019 by Michael Sternbach Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michael Sternbach Posted March 4, 2019 On 3.3.2019 at 1:39 AM, Nungali said: I note you never answered any questions I posed, due to your former set of statements, in the post of mine you quoted. I was not aware of you asking me any question in that post. Maybe because they lacked their usual obtrusiveness? On 3.3.2019 at 1:39 AM, Nungali said: But, to continue with this new set of statements. As an anthropologist, I can't condone the mixing up of the terms 'culture' and civilisation' . I am sure you know the difference . Yes, but they overlap on some occasions. And I believe I was being thoughtful in regards to what term I was using when overall, although it is possible that I made a few mistakes. On 3.3.2019 at 1:39 AM, Nungali said: And I have to say, such outmoded beliefs are the result of western white imperialism . Not so. The ancient Egyptians believed that the foundations of their civilization were laid by 'Gods' who had come from a remote island. I will say much more on this in a subsequent topic especially dedicated to the influence Atlantis had on early Egypt. Likewise, we will see in due time that the Mayans believed themselves to be the heirs of a bringer of culture they called Quetzalcoatl. A belief shared by many other tribes all over the American double continent, BTW. And it was in fact the European settlers who attributed the city of Tiahuanaco in the Andes to the Incas - whereas the latter just laughed and said, no, it was done by mysterious beings long before their time. I could add more examples, but I will reserve that for the respective threads. However, the presented examples should suffice to demonstrate that, insofar we are dealing with "white imperialistic arrogance" in this context, it lies in disrespect towards what those peoples themselves shared regarding their origins. On 3.3.2019 at 1:39 AM, Nungali said: I can link to many papers that explain this, if you are not familiar with the concept. A good introduction to the subject is in the preface to 'Ancient Egypt - from the First Framers to The Great Pyramid' by Toby Wilkenson. It is considered essential understanding nowadays in academia. I have that book, though I had no opportunity to read it yet. I will at least take a good look at it before we come specifically to Egypt in one of my next threads. However, as long as nobody actually replicates some of the ancient Egyptians' most astounding feats with nothing but primitive tools, I will most likely remain unconvinced by the theories it sets forth. On 3.3.2019 at 1:39 AM, Nungali said: Remember , most of what passes for 'occultism' was generated by post Victorian western biblical uninformed pre-science ; case in point - Lemuria ; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemuria_(continent)#Scientific_origins I am actually intending to look at Lemuria in yet another thead especially dedicated to that topic. And I am well aware of the many implausible ideas regarding it as well as of the evidence that speaks to its actual existence, in some form. On 3.3.2019 at 1:39 AM, Nungali said: Some of the biggest advances in sorting out peoples culture, history and developments has come about by third world people and others who are not white westerners, gaining education and degrees and doing research not fuelled by such biases. It developed from Solutrian culture and was virtually a 'degradation' in its first appearance ; The Solutrean can be seen as the last stage of the Gravettian that I solely refered to; quoting Wikipedia: "The Solutrean industry is a relatively advanced flint tool-making style of the Upper Palaeolithic of the Final Gravettian, from around 22,000 to 17,000 BP." On 3.3.2019 at 1:39 AM, Nungali said: " The widespread resumption of artistic production in the early Magdalenian Period was marked at first by a return to simple line drawing and a retreat from the Aurignacian achievements in modeling and polychromy. Generally, coarse black drawings with little concern for detail or finish characterized monumental cave art in this early phase. It may be distinguished as part of a later school by its continuation of Solutrean plastic tendencies and its correct draftsmanship in the treatment of feet and horns and of perspective in general. Later, however, as the new school consolidated itself, there was an increasing and striking naturalism in all the arts. The small arts, already at a high level in the Aurignacian era, reached a climax in the Magdalenian Period, with delicate, detailed engravings and carvings in the round; in engravings two or more animals were often represented together in a recognizable scene. The outstanding achievement of Magdalenian art, however, was the cave engraving and polychrome painting of its late phase. There was little interest in formal composition or relationships between figures, but the figures themselves, especially in painting, were remarkably beautiful, with lively realism, excellent rendering of volumes, subtle expressive poses, and sophisticated design." https://www.britannica.com/topic/Magdalenian-culture ie. the more advanced phase of it was an internal development . While it is true that in the Aurignacian period humans became artisically remarkably advanced, the degradation you talk about already occured in the subsequent Solutrean. Crô-Magnon art mostly belongs to the first and the last of these three. So basically, in the Magdalene revived the topic and developed it to new heights. It is correct that Magdalenian art gained in complexity over time. Of course it is conceivable that it just took some time until the Atlantean art style could be fully integrated in the pre-existing local culture. On 3.3.2019 at 1:39 AM, Nungali said: Pics please . I looked and cant find one and I am not unfamilar with this art . Huh? The pictures I presented are examples of Magdalenian art. On 3.3.2019 at 1:39 AM, Nungali said: You might remember some threads where I discussed it and recommended watching Werner Herzog's doco on it ; Similar dynamics here with Gwion Gwion art ; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bradshaw_rock_paintings Accept for one small detail , those CULTURES are NOTHING AT ALL like the CIVILISATION Atlantis was supposed to be . Agreed. As far as our knowledge of them goes, anyway. There may just not be very much extant for us to find, except what was relatively well protected in caves. - And just to make sure that all our readers understand this, those painted caves mentioned above were sanctuaries, not the homes of the Magdalenian people. That said, I concur that the Atlantean mother civilzation must have been considerably more sophisticated. But what we found in southwest Europe may be remnants from people that were Atlantean refugees or outcasts and that essentially had to start all over again. Or they may even have been local natives that simply evolved to a certain degree under the influence of the Atlanteans. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michael Sternbach Posted March 4, 2019 On 3.3.2019 at 1:42 AM, Nungali said: ... are you supposing the super advanced Atlantians , with their circular ringed city and Navy and all their advanced technology went into Europe and all they managed to teach people was a new style of cave art ? You essentially asked that question already in your last post, and I replied to it in my previous post. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michael Sternbach Posted March 4, 2019 On 3.3.2019 at 2:09 AM, Nungali said: Only if you cant conceive of how they really did it One can just say ; they used holes and hammered stakes into it, they used fire and then threw vinegar on it ... but I have evidence otherwise of other techniques as well as these. I can post pictures here of half quarried blocks still in situ that where obviously cut otherwise, and science and Egyptologists well know about it . Here is the other trick, or misunderstanding they tout . "Science says they cut stone with copper saws, but those stones are harder than copper ! " They just dont understand the technique or misquote so they can refute it. Then there is the case of stone vases and pots, made well before any type of monumental buildings, or 'advanced' building techniques. Did the ancient mother culture first teach them to make stone vases, then gradually develop it over time to emulate an evolving process ? Pffft ! Mechanical Engineering in Ancient Egypt, Part XII: Stone Cutting https://scholar.cu.edu.eg/?q=galal/files/me_part_xii_ijarmate.pdf Again, this has been addressed already. However, you are welcome to share your material on ancient Egypt in aforesaid upcoming topic. On 3.3.2019 at 2:09 AM, Nungali said: Does that idea come from Plato's or Donelley's description of Atlantis ? Neither. According to Plato, Atlantis was extremely advanced for its time. That it had supertechnology in our terms at its disposal is a relatively modern idea (e.g. advocated by Cayce), however, although some historical facts may be seen as actual indications of that - from our perspective! Which brings to mind that it would have been difficult for the ancient Egyptians and Greeks respectively to pass on to future generations knowledge of things for which they had no conception. That being said, the idea of there once having been a highly advanced philosophy/science that was mostly lost, but that is partially extant in the occult sciences, is not a modern one. It played an important role for instance in the Renaissance, such as with the Italian natural philosopher Giordano Bruno, who attributed ancient Egypt with that kind of knowledge, Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apech Posted March 4, 2019 Ah, ah,We come from the land of the ice and snow,From the midnight sun where the hot springs blowThe hammer of the godsWill drive our ships to new lands,To fight the horde, singing and crying,Valhalla, I am coming!On we sweep with threshing oar,Our only goal will be the western shoreAh, ah,We come from the land of the ice and snow,From the midnight sun where the hot springs blow ... 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted March 4, 2019 (edited) 20 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said: Nungali, First off, while I was surprised, I really appreciated your kind consideration of the ideas presented in my thread so far. For awhile, it seemed like we could actually continue to have a fruitful discussion about this topic. Looks like you have been fully restored to your usual scornful self now, though... An interesting observation . You might also notice that my responses depend on the information and ideas I am responding to. Yes, I do consider good ideas and will discuss them. however silly or 'loaded' ideas and comments and bad research and other 'things' will get a scornful response . Your mistake is thinking I was being 'kind' . Thus us something I find strange, but fully acknowledge most people operate by. When I agree with or help someone it is not because I am being kind If I disagree with someone or scorn their information / advice / ect . it is not because I am being cruel. { mate of mine ; " Try this curry I made, what do you think ?" " Its terrible . " ( whines ) 'Ohhh mate ! ... I thought you where my mate ? " " I am . " " But the curry ? " " Oh ... for God's sake ! Okay, the curry was very nice . " Thanks mate " - but by now , Sterny , you must know I am not like a 'normal human' ? Also, when questions where being answered and info was going back to and fro I was 'helpful'. But when people throw in things, dont answer the relevant questions put to them and over lay the lack of that with more of the same and then those issues generate questions and those are not answered either, it all starts to fall apart and , yes, scorn will come in. So, do we want to debate reasonably and get to conclusions by pooling our knowledge , or just play in yet another internet forum thread ? I would not normally bring all this up ... but since my 'scorn' has been noted ..... Quote Very well... I am going to deal with some of your objections, however, with a few reservation. For one thing, I may leave going further into certain topics to the proposed subsequent threads. If you are not sure what I mean, review my OP and remember that I put 'part 1' in this thread's header for a reason. I realise that ... I have been waiting for further developments. However, in the meantime, some posts bought up other issues. I will always address those issues. . Quote More in general, please remember that I started this thread to inspire the reader and to stimulate their imagination, and I won't let it turn into another Karate sparring match! However, if you insist on the latter, you are very welcome to visit me here in Switzerland, and we will look for a suitable spot in my yard... Wow. That is the nicest way of saying something that other people have been banned for ! " yeah buddy ! You come down to Oakland and me and my mates will show you a thing or two . " - remember that ? For goodness sakes ! Just because I post with a different opinion and put forward info on a subject I have been looking into for 40 years ! And relating to other subjects I have been studying equally as long, and studied at Uni . What questions or observations or information did I post to wrrent such a reaction from YOU, of all people . Is the subject SUCH a sacred cow to elicit such a reaction ? ( was it the Plato / Donelly question ? ) If so, maybe it should be in PP, an area I dont go to, due to this very reason. Lets have enough of all this and get back to reasonable responses . Quote That said, let me take a closer look at your most recent posts next. yes, let's do .... but later , sun is up , and there is work to do. Edited March 4, 2019 by Nungali Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
blue eyed snake Posted March 4, 2019 interesting thread, please keep it up laddies, I like reading about this stuff 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apech Posted March 4, 2019 (edited) 40 minutes ago, blue eyed snake said: interesting thread, please keep it up laddies, I like reading about this stuff Please don't call us ladies. Edited March 4, 2019 by Apech 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michael Sternbach Posted March 5, 2019 (edited) 4 hours ago, Nungali said: An interesting observation . You might also notice that my responses depend on the information and ideas I am responding to. Yes, I do consider good ideas and will discuss them. however silly or 'loaded' ideas and comments and bad research and other 'things' will get a scornful response . The thing is, I already posted some highly speculative information earlier that was expected to trigger a scornful reaction from you, yet you reacted with more speculative information (e.g. the hint at Tilak's The Arctic Home in the Vedas). Quote Your mistake is thinking I was being 'kind' . Thus us something I find strange, but fully acknowledge most people operate by. When I agree with or help someone it is not because I am being kind Understood. However, just in case some psychotropic substance was playing a role in the amenable attitude you recently demonstrated, would you consider to continue taking it, please? Quote If I disagree with someone or scorn their information / advice / ect . it is not because I am being cruel. { mate of mine ; " Try this curry I made, what do you think ?" " Its terrible . " ( whines ) 'Ohhh mate ! ... I thought you where my mate ? " " I am . " " But the curry ? " " Oh ... for God's sake ! Okay, the curry was very nice . " Thanks mate " - but by now , Sterny , you must know I am not like a 'normal human' ? Indeed. There were times I was questioning if you are a human at all. Quote Also, when questions where being answered and info was going back to and fro I was 'helpful'. But when people throw in things, dont answer the relevant questions put to them and over lay the lack of that with more of the same and then those issues generate questions and those are not answered either, it all starts to fall apart and , yes, scorn will come in. So, do we want to debate reasonably and get to conclusions by pooling our knowledge , or just play in yet another internet forum thread ? I would not normally bring all this up ... but since my 'scorn' has been noted ..... Pooling knowledge is great and I would appreciate being able to continue doing that. However, ridicule (from a certain degree on) tends to block any constructive exchange and takes the discussion to another level. Some third-party readers might still find it entertaining, however, IMO, it's not conducive to the objective of this thread. Quote I realise that ... I have been waiting for further developments. However, in the meantime, some posts bought up other issues. I will always address those issues. I mentioned this mostly as a preventive measure, explaining my refusal to further discuss certain issues right now. Quote Wow. That is the nicest way of saying something that other people have been banned for ! I learned from the best... Quote " yeah buddy ! You come down to Oakland and me and my mates will show you a thing or two . " - remember that ? And I thought you might appreciate the offer! Quote For goodness sakes ! Just because I post with a different opinion and put forward info on a subject I have been looking into for 40 years ! And relating to other subjects I have been studying equally as long, and studied at Uni . What questions or observations or information did I post to wrrent such a reaction from YOU, of all people . Is the subject SUCH a sacred cow to elicit such a reaction ? ( was it the Plato / Donelly question ? ) If so, maybe it should be in PP, an area I dont go to, due to this very reason. Would I want to miss your contributions? Quote Lets have enough of all this and get back to reasonable responses . yes, let's do .... but later , sun is up , and there is work to do. Looking forward to it. Edited March 5, 2019 by Michael Sternbach Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michael Sternbach Posted March 5, 2019 2 hours ago, Apech said: Please don't call us ladies. She said 'laddies', though. Not quite sure what this means, but then, I am still working through my English 101 course... 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michael Sternbach Posted March 5, 2019 1 hour ago, Michael Sternbach said: She said 'laddies', though. Not quite sure what this means, but then, I am still working through my English 101 course... Hold on... Is it derived from 'lad'? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apech Posted March 5, 2019 8 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said: Hold on... Is it derived from 'lad'? Ad-lad-tis - the lost land of boys. 1 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
blue eyed snake Posted March 5, 2019 I would much like if both gentleman will continue this thread, I find it fascinating and it holds a lot of interesting links too. and seems to me that ad-lad-tis must have held girls too, else it could not have grown to it's mythical proportions 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted March 5, 2019 Okay . then .. I just cant resist those blue eyes Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted March 5, 2019 18 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said: The thing is, I already posted some highly speculative information earlier that was expected to trigger a scornful reaction from you, yet you reacted with more speculative information (e.g. the hint at Tilak's The Arctic Home in the Vedas). I see there is some confusion, and that was why I was asking those questions . The subject matter seems to shift and sway between looking at Plato's Atlantis and the possibility that, although he admits it is a story and allegory (and most scholars admit he was actually writing about Athens itself and trying to show a masked example , etc etc . ) his story might have been based on elements that had some reality. Maybe there WAS an ancient civilisation and maybe it was near Cadiz ... or ..... ? Sort of attached to this is the idea of older CULTURES that we only have hints about, these are NOT civilisations with advanced technology, etc . but may have more advanced culture that is passed on. There are indications of CULTURES that lived up near the Arctic Circle and some have connected them with the earliest and oldest CULTURAL CONCEPTS in the Rig Veda ONE reference to that is 'Vedic Home in the Arctic ' ... and I even warned you it would be wacky, illogical and 'Indian' . The other idea is Donnelian Atlantis which has nothing to do with Plato but is a post Victorian invention fuelled by old school Biblical studies undeveloped science and ideas of cultural or racial superiorities . If any readers dont understand or know of this , look up Ignatius Donelly in Wiki . Thats where all the stuff comes from (liek that stuff in the Donovan song, posted in this thread earlier. Your points and information often fluctuate all trough these three areas and go from one to another . So in one paragraph I might supply extra info for an idea and laugh at another idea.. I am still trying to detect where you are going with all this ... its a good idea to state a 'founding premise' at the outset . I was supposing we would get to that . There are more issues also, which might have been misinterpreted, I will try to clear them up afterwards . 18 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said: Understood. However, just in case some psychotropic substance was playing a role in the amenable attitude you recently demonstrated, would you consider to continue taking it, please? So, you prefer me medicated so I dont point out any flaws and inaccuracies or react to the woo-woo parts Ah hell ... why not ? So , you think Edgar Cayce saw the real Atlantis in visions do ya ? What a stupid load of ... < half a mo' .... jabs a shot of heroin into his arm ... > Oh yeah man .... thats cool man ... he was a cool dude ... I memmble mmmhhmmm blllbllb ... 18 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said: Indeed. There were times I was questioning if you are a human at all. I too am a robot ... didnt you see that thread ? 18 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said: Pooling knowledge is great and I would appreciate being able to continue doing that. However, ridicule (from a certain degree on) tends to block any constructive exchange and takes the discussion to another level. Some third-party readers might still find it entertaining, however, IMO, it's not conducive to the objective of this thread. What is its object ? I thought it would be able to take it to another level... to dispel wrong info and point out suspect influences on one hand , and on the other to give links and leads to more realistic endeavours. I mean, I got 30years experience in chair and field in cultural anthropology , I studied as much as I could about ' alternative Atlantis ' since a teen. I have viewed soooo much material on it, And had many a debate (and followed up on any supporting info or BS offered ) from both sides . But that doesnt mean I will agree with and support any idea that arises . 18 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said: I mentioned this mosy as a preventive measure, explaining my refusal to further discuss certain issues right now. I learned from the best... And I thought you might appreciate the offer! Would I want to miss your contributions? Looking forward to it. Anyway , we have to show off even more now, as there is a girl watching ... to continue , somewhat with a back peddle, but I think some issues need clearing up Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted March 5, 2019 21 hours ago, Apech said: Please don't call us ladies. Dont be a pussie . 2 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted March 5, 2019 On 04/03/2019 at 3:08 PM, Michael Sternbach said: I was not aware of you asking me any question in that post. Maybe because they lacked their usual obtrusiveness? Yes, but they overlap on some occasions. And I believe I was being thoughtful in regards to what term I was using when overall, although it is possible that I made a few mistakes. Not so. The ancient Egyptians believed that the foundations of their civilization were laid by 'Gods' who had come from a remote island. I will say much more on this in a subsequent topic especially dedicated to the influence Atlantis had on early Egypt. Likewise, we will see in due time that the Mayans believed themselves to be the heirs of a bringer of culture they called Quetzalcoatl. A belief shared by many other tribes all over the American double continent, BTW. And it was in fact the European settlers who attributed the city of Tiahuanaco in the Andes to the Incas - whereas the latter just laughed and said, no, it was done by mysterious beings long before their time. I could add more examples, but I will reserve that for the respective threads. However, the presented examples should suffice to demonstrate that, insofar we are dealing with "white imperialistic arrogance" in this context, it lies in disrespect towards what those peoples themselves shared regarding their origins. They are not the things I was referring to though. Every culture has such mythology in its origins . I am talking about the interpretations more modern people put on those old ideas . I will give a local example of what I mean here ; I hope it explains what I am trying to get across. One way of interpreting some archaeological evidence in Australia is that at a certain time their culture and some simple technologies changed , rather rapidly and is considered that a new people came into Australia. They bought some food processing tricks and some new stone point technology. But no great advanced technology that might surface later. Much later after this, the SE sector of Australia and part of the interior became landscaped, 'farmed' , irrigated , small villages and aquaculture developed. THIS wasnt due to any new arrivals but an internal development interfacing with that specific environment. Early settler and explorer accounts often postulate it was done by animals, or earlier unknown settlers from elsewhere. In many places we have evidence of new peoples arriving and bringing new cultural processes , but not super advanced technologies as proposed by 'Atlantean theorists'. A lot of this was happening within the cultures of ' Old Europe' , but they didnt bring super advanced technologies like the 'Atlantians' where supposed to have . Now, in Egypt, yes there is a marked acceleration in stone technology and urban development at a certain period, and it IS curious, but that is a whole big subject alone , and it takes some time and research to start to understand all the influences and dynamics involved . On 04/03/2019 at 3:08 PM, Michael Sternbach said: I have that book, though I had no opportunity to read it yet. I will at least take a good look at it before we come specifically to Egypt in one of my next threads. However, as long as nobody actually replicates some of the ancient Egyptians' most astounding feats with nothing but primitive tools, I will most likely remain unconvinced by the theories it sets forth. There are heaps more. But obviously there is a LOT we dont understand . One example that comes to mind is a preserved bog mummy found. After much examination they found that this man had travelled 1000s of miles, knew how to survive alone, hunt and forage, make weapons including stone arrow and spear heads, make textile and leather clothing and he had a copper hatchet that he mined the ore of, smelted and cast ... all himself . Now the scientists in question could not replicate his copper axe , not the way he made it ; it was either too soft to cut, or if hard enough, to brittle and broke easily. Its a question of technological TECHNIQUE rather than 'super technology' . We certainly have lost a LOT of technique , especially those that are time consuming .. nowadays we conceive of time as different and a different importance to back then .... like we do walking as form of transport . On 04/03/2019 at 3:08 PM, Michael Sternbach said: I am actually intending to look at Lemuria in yet another thead especially dedicated to that topic. And I am well aware of the many implausible ideas regarding it as well as of the evidence that speaks to its actual existence, in some form. Lets look at both then ... when it arises. On 04/03/2019 at 3:08 PM, Michael Sternbach said: The Solutrean can be seen as the last stage of the Gravettian that I solely refered to; quoting Wikipedia: "The Solutrean industry is a relatively advanced flint tool-making style of the Upper Palaeolithic of the Final Gravettian, from around 22,000 to 17,000 BP." Yes, but is this really some type of advanced Atlantean culture with super new technologies that bought great change ? It was an advance in primitive stone tool making . I dont see any relevant comparison and such things are being thrown up and around all over the place with no logical linking together ... they are just undefined suggestions. Unless you are going to link it all together somehow ? On 04/03/2019 at 3:08 PM, Michael Sternbach said: While it is true that in the Aurignacian period humans became artisically remarkably advanced, the degradation you talk about already occured in the subsequent Solutrean. Crô-Magnon art mostly belongs to the first and the last of these three. So basically, in the Magdalene revived the topic and developed it to new heights. It is correct that Magdalenian art gained in complexity over time. Of course it is conceivable that it just took some time until the Atlantean art style could be fully integrated in the pre-existing local culture. See ! You did it again ... just threw in " the Atlantean art style " in a perfectly reasonable observation about early culture . What Atlantean art style was it after it became integrated ? On 04/03/2019 at 3:08 PM, Michael Sternbach said: Huh? The pictures I presented are examples of Magdalenian art. I meant a picture with a horse with a bridle or reigns ... did you not say there where pictures of that ? Yet you posted pics of horses with NO leads or bridles " Some of the cave paintings even show horses wearing harnesses, indicating that these animals were being tamed much earlier than the textbooks would have us believe. " These little things slip in all the way through .... most do not notice these little fudges (or mistakes) and just accept what is written as accurate, then more is built upon the inaccuracies . On 04/03/2019 at 3:08 PM, Michael Sternbach said: Agreed. As far as our knowledge of them goes, anyway. There may just not be very much extant for us to find, except what was relatively well protected in caves. - And just to make sure that all our readers understand this, those painted caves mentioned above were sanctuaries, not the homes of the Magdalenian people. That said, I concur that the Atlantean mother civilzation must have been considerably more sophisticated. But what we found in southwest Europe may be remnants from people that were Atlantean refugees or outcasts and that essentially had to start all over again. Or they may even have been local natives that simply evolved to a certain degree under the influence of the Atlanteans. I doubt it , as that culture does not seem like Plato's OR Donnelly's Atlantis .... bit still VERY interesting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Europe_(archaeology) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michael Sternbach Posted March 6, 2019 (edited) 19 hours ago, Nungali said: I see there is some confusion, and that was why I was asking those questions . The subject matter seems to shift and sway between looking at Plato's Atlantis and the possibility that, although he admits it is a story and allegory Hold it right there! In the two dialogues in which he introduces Atlantis, Plato lets his protagonists repeatedly emphasize that what is being shared is NOT a fictional story but facts. Examples from the Timaios Critias: “Then listen, Socrates, to a tale which, though strange, is certainly true, having been attested by Solon, who was the wisest of the seven sages.” Socrates: “You speak well. But what is this ancient achievement which was not only actually related by Solon, but was once really accomplished by this city (Athens)?” Critias: “ ... what that event was which Solon asserted as a fact.” Examples from the Critias Timaios: “Grant that my words might endure in so far as they have been spoken truly and acceptably to him (God); but if unintentionally I have said anything wrong, I pray that he will impose upon me a just retribution, and the just retribution of him who errs is that he should be set right.” Critias: “I would specially invoke Mnemosyne (the Ancient Greeks’personification of memory); for all the important part of my discourse is dependent on her favour, and if I can recollect and recite enough of what was said by the priests and brought hither by Solon.” So it would seem like Plato, aware of his reputation for narrating allegorical stories, was making a real effort to clarify that this one was not one of them! Moreover, the story's truthfulness may be underlined by his revered teacher Socrates, who favoured truth as the highest value, testifying to it in the dialogues. And it seems doubtful that Plato would have put the reputation of Solon, his ancestor and a highly respected states-man, on the line by attributing a made up but allegedly true story to him. Also, we know from Herodotus that Solon actually travelled to Egypt, thus knowledge he received there could have been passed on to Plato, his descendant. Furthermore, in his Commentary on the Timaeus, Proclus (4th century CE) stated that the pillars in the Temple of Neith inscribed with the story of Atlantis still existed in his time (we know that this temple was gone by the 14th century CE). Quote (and most scholars admit he was actually writing about Athens itself and trying to show a masked example , etc etc . ) Then he would have been using a bad example for his beloved Athens, because the Atlanteans are portrayed as a people that Zeus decided to punish for their arrogance and that were in fact beaten back by the heroic early - Athenians! Quote his story might have been based on elements that had some reality. Maybe there WAS an ancient civilisation and maybe it was near Cadiz ... or ..... ? Plato was fairly particular about where this civilisation was located and furthermore gave us a plenitude of details about it which would be redundant if it was meant as nothing but an allegory. Quote Sort of attached to this is the idea of older CULTURES that we only have hints about, these are NOT civilisations with advanced technology, etc . Well, if the implication would be that the Atlanteans already had washing machines with dryers, then they may not have had advanced technology. On the other hand, the ancient Romans built some aqueducts that leave us moderns puzzled over how they actually function! So in those terms, they may have been technologically advanced. I mentioned more modern ideas about Atlantis's incredible technological sophistication in passing, however, all I feel really confident to say at this stage is that this civilization must have been really advanced for its time - while leaving the actual degree and nature of that advancement open. Quote but may have more advanced culture that is passed on. There are indications of CULTURES that lived up near the Arctic Circle and some have connected them with the earliest and oldest CULTURAL CONCEPTS in the Rig Veda ONE reference to that is 'Vedic Home in the Arctic ' ... and I even warned you it would be wacky, illogical and 'Indian' . That's a very interesting topic in its own right! I intend to dedicate a thread of its own to it and look forward to what else you have to share. Quote The other idea is Donnelian Atlantis which has nothing to do with Plato but is a post Victorian invention fuelled by old school Biblical studies undeveloped science and ideas of cultural or racial superiorities . If any readers dont understand or know of this , look up Ignatius Donelly in Wiki . Thats where all the stuff comes from (liek that stuff in the Donovan song, posted in this thread earlier. I would say, Donnelly's Atlantis - The Antediluvian World was a fair attempt for its time. While some of its ideas may indeed be obsolete, a number of the author's arguments are still worthy of our consideration, IMO. However, as a detailled analysis of the text would require far more time than I am ready to dedicate to this right now, I will leave it to the interested reader to follow up on it. Donnelly's book can be freely downloaded here: http://www.duhovnirazvoj.com/ElektronskaBiblioteka/The Antideluvian world-Atlantis.pdf Quote Your points and information often fluctuate all trough these three areas and go from one to another . So in one paragraph I might supply extra info for an idea and laugh at another idea.. I am still trying to detect where you are going with all this ... its a good idea to state a 'founding premise' at the outset . I was supposing we would get to that . <Uhum> Quoting my OP: "Here, I intend to be looking at the Atlantis legend as shared by Plato in connection with the end of the last Ice Age (to put it more simply) and then to move on to explore other aspects of that lost civilizations and the inheritance that may have been received from it by subsequent cultures that we have more factual knowledge about ... Please try to stay more on less on topic as outlined and try to post comments of a more general nature in our previous TDB Atlantis thread." And while it is in the nature of any such thread to drift a bit this way and that way, I believe I did make an adequate effort not to digress too far from the stated objective in my posts. Quote There are more issues also, which might have been misinterpreted, I will try to clear them up afterwards . So, you prefer me medicated so I dont point out any flaws and inaccuracies or react to the woo-woo parts Ah hell ... why not ? So , you think Edgar Cayce saw the real Atlantis in visions do ya ? What a stupid load of ... < half a mo' .... jabs a shot of heroin into his arm ... > Oh yeah man .... thats cool man ... he was a cool dude ... I memmble mmmhhmmm blllbllb ... There you go, mate! Yay!!! Mind you, I actually didn't give Cayce that much credit in this topic and mentioned him only as more of a secondary source. Quote I too am a robot ... didnt you see that thread ? I missed it, I am afraid, though it does make sense. Quote What is its object ? See above. Quote I thought it would be able to take it to another level... to dispel wrong info and point out suspect influences on one hand , and on the other to give links and leads to more realistic endeavours. I mean, I got 30years experience in chair and field in cultural anthropology , I studied as much as I could about ' alternative Atlantis ' since a teen. I have viewed soooo much material on it, And had many a debate (and followed up on any supporting info or BS offered ) from both sides . But that doesnt mean I will agree with and support any idea that arises . Nobody expects you to go to the other extreme, mate! Quote Anyway , we have to show off even more now, as there is a girl watching More than just one, I hope. Quote ... to continue , somewhat with a back peddle, but I think some issues need clearing up Alright, lets get back to work then... Tomorrow! Edited March 6, 2019 by Michael Sternbach 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted March 6, 2019 (edited) Okay. I shall restrict myself to Plato's descriptions of Atlantis and how that somehow fits in with the last / end of ice age . I got my ' modifying equipment ' on standby (and you also have Apech here to keep in me 'in line' ) ; Spoiler Edited March 6, 2019 by Nungali 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted March 6, 2019 .... but there could be a problem with that .... Spoiler 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michael Sternbach Posted March 9, 2019 (edited) On 5.3.2019 at 11:19 PM, Nungali said: They are not the things I was referring to though. Every culture has such mythology in its origins . And every myth has a true core, it is said. Quote I am talking about the interpretations more modern people put on those old ideas . Before we may go into specific examples, it should be helpful to clarify the difference between the modern and conventional view of history on the one hand, and the classical and occultist view on the other hand. The modern, conventional view typically sees history as a process of gradual development from a relatively primitive to a more advanced state. Whereas the classical view (and in agreement with it, also the occultist view) considers history mostly a decline from a higher state to a lower state. The most prominent examples are the Greek model of the four ages (Golden, Silver, Bronze, Iron Age) and the very similar Indian model (Satya-, Treta-, Dvapara, Kali-Yuga); but we find essentially the same concept also in Persian culture, in various South/Central/North American cultures as well as in quite a few others. Typically, each age ends with a cataclysm that creates a veil obscuring that which came before; except for some kind of summary of it that is being passed on to and fertilizes the next cycle. Quote I will give a local example of what I mean here ; I hope it explains what I am trying to get across. One way of interpreting some archaeological evidence in Australia is that at a certain time their culture and some simple technologies changed , rather rapidly and is considered that a new people came into Australia. They bought some food processing tricks and some new stone point technology. But no great advanced technology that might surface later. Much later after this, the SE sector of Australia and part of the interior became landscaped, 'farmed' , irrigated , small villages and aquaculture developed. THIS wasnt due to any new arrivals but an internal development interfacing with that specific environment. Early settler and explorer accounts often postulate it was done by animals, or earlier unknown settlers from elsewhere. In many places we have evidence of new peoples arriving and bringing new cultural processes , but not super advanced technologies as proposed by 'Atlantean theorists'. A lot of this was happening within the cultures of ' Old Europe' , but they didnt bring super advanced technologies like the 'Atlantians' where supposed to have . Frankly, I am not sure where your preoccupation with super advanced technologies comes from. I stated right at the beginning of this topic that it was meant to be all about Plato's Atlantis, and in that, there is little that would speak to super advanced technologies. That said, I do consider the ancient teachings of astrology, alchemy and magic as highly sophisticated sciences/technologies in their own right, albeit naturally not in the modern materialistic understanding of those terms. What degree of mastery of those sciences/technologies may prehistoric civilizations have possessed, though? For instance, were they able to levitate huge blocks of rock using psychic forces, possibly amplified by simple means that we would not even recognize as something of a technological nature? I am all for treading carefully - but there are undeniable facts that do seem to support aforesaid classical/occultist views of history, for instance those you allude to yourself in the next paragraph that I quote: Quote Now, in Egypt, yes there is a marked acceleration in stone technology and urban development at a certain period, and it IS curious, but that is a whole big subject alone , and it takes some time and research to start to understand all the influences and dynamics involved . So this dude demonstrated that he can push a 1-ton block over some distance. Moreover, he lifted a block with a weight of 19.200 pounds (which translates to 8.7 tons, not 20 tons, as the title claims!) first three feet off the ground, then he stood it up eventually. While this is quite impressive alright, it doesn't come anywhere near what the Egyptians of the fourth dynasty did: Bringing 60 to 70-ton blocks up to a height of roughly 50 meters as building elements for the king's chamber in the Great Pyramid. Not to mention the 200-ton blocks our ancient masons used (much earlier, around 10.000 BC?) in constructing the Sphinx temples as though they were Lego blocks. Quote And here, some guys using a copper saw plus water and sand managed to cut into a granite block - how deep? 10 centimeters perhaps? "In just a few days", as they say. Now lets do some simple math (which Graham Hancock thankfully already did for us in his Fingerprints of the Gods): The Great Pyramid has been reliably estimated to consist of 2.3 million blocks (most of them granite, though the no longer existing outer casing consisted of limestone). Assuming that it was under construction for 20 years (as the archeologists say) and that our diligent masons worked ten hours a day, 365 days a year, the rate that these blocks needed not only to be put in position (which Hancock's calculation refers to), but obviously also to be cut ready for use is a staggering 31 blocks an hour or about one block every two minutes! Is it just me or doesn't something quite add up here... Quote There are heaps more. But obviously there is a LOT we dont understand . Obviously. A LOT. Thanks for admitting that, mate! Quote One example that comes to mind is a preserved bog mummy found. After much examination they found that this man had travelled 1000s of miles, knew how to survive alone, hunt and forage, make weapons including stone arrow and spear heads, make textile and leather clothing and he had a copper hatchet that he mined the ore of, smelted and cast ... all himself . I will resist the temptation to talk at length here about the Egyptian mummy, which a hair analysis proved to contain a fair amount of cocaine, although the coca plant was completely unknown in the pre-Columbian Old World. Quote Now the scientists in question could not replicate his copper axe , not the way he made it ; it was either too soft to cut, or if hard enough, to brittle and broke easily. Its a question of technological TECHNIQUE rather than 'super technology' . We certainly have lost a LOT of technique , especially those that are time consuming .. nowadays we conceive of time as different and a different importance to back then .... like we do walking as form of transport . Again, I made no claims as to the Atlanteans having used laser rays and the like... Quote Lets look at both then ... when it arises. Or when Lemuria itself rises! Quote Yes, but is this really some type of advanced Atlantean culture with super new technologies that bought great change ? It was an advance in primitive stone tool making . I dont see any relevant comparison and such things are being thrown up and around all over the place with no logical linking together ... they are just undefined suggestions. Unless you are going to link it all together somehow ? I am indeed working on bringing up circumstantial evidence for Plato's lost civilization in what you may consider a piecemeal manner. I am not pretending that any single one of them would suffice as proof for its existence. Only once we see them all laid out on the table, we may safely draw our personal conclusions regarding the latter. Quote See ! You did it again ... just threw in " the Atlantean art style " in a perfectly reasonable observation about early culture . What Atlantean art style was it after it became integrated ? I was indeed not holding a speech on Magdalenian art as such, but really just considering it as evidence for a supposed Atlantean influence. Hey, which happens to be our topic! Quote I meant a picture with a horse with a bridle or reigns ... did you not say there where pictures of that ? Yet you posted pics of horses with NO leads or bridles " Some of the cave paintings even show horses wearing harnesses, indicating that these animals were being tamed much earlier than the textbooks would have us believe. " These little things slip in all the way through .... most do not notice these little fudges (or mistakes) and just accept what is written as accurate, then more is built upon the inaccuracies . The pictures I posted were indeed just intended as examples for Magdalenian art in general. I didn't have any pictures of those harness wearing horses ready, though there are some shown in the aforementioned book Plato Prehistorian by Mary Settegast. I shall see later (when I have time) if I can scan them and present them a little further down this thread. Quote I doubt it , as that culture does not seem like Plato's OR Donnelly's Atlantis .... bit still VERY interesting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Europe_(archaeology) Again, some of the known prehistoric cultures may have been inspired by contact with Atlantean civilization - and we will look into more possible examples for that too a little further down the road. Looking forward to your comments on this and my previous post, Nungers. And of course, hoping for others to chime in again too. Edited March 9, 2019 by Michael Sternbach 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted March 9, 2019 14 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said: And every myth has a true core, it is said. ... by people that haven't studied mythology and cultural anthropology perhaps. A lot of things are said ....'being said' isnt a token of validity. I would rather say some myths have a true core ... others do not - apparently . EG . some Aboriginal 'myths' talk about the sea level rising and the land slowly being inundated, and the 'hero ancestors' that bought palm seeds way inland to plant by water , making 'oasis' , both now proven by modern research. The other side is, for example, the Bundjalung myth that they originally came from Venus . (Aside from the issue that Bundjalung elders also say they came from Arnhem Land , down the east coast in a canoe, out of the earth , where the first people ever in the world , etc . The modern interpretations (and using them to their own advantages - usually book sales ) is also present in this example, with the Strong Brothers, seizing on the Venus myth and tying it in with a whole lot of modern day alternative alien bullshit . Such alternative people seem to just pick and choose what suits their agenda, then use the indigenous myths as giving validity to their ideas and agendas. That is what I was on about . 14 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said: Before we may go into specific examples, it should be helpful to clarify the difference between the modern and conventional view of history on the one hand, and the classical and occultist view on the other hand. The modern, conventional view typically sees history as a process of gradual development from a relatively primitive to a more advanced state. Whereas the classical view (and in agreement with it, also the occultist view) considers history mostly a decline from a higher state to a lower state. The most prominent examples are the Greek model of the four ages (Golden, Silver, Bronze, Iron Age) and the very similar Indian model (Satya-, Treta-, Dvapara, Kali-Yuga); but we find essentially the same concept also in Persian culture, in various South/Central/North American cultures as well as in quite a few others. Typically, each age ends with a cataclysm that creates a veil obscuring that which came before; except for some kind of summary of it that is being passed on to and fertilizes the next cycle. Igne Natura Renovatur Integra 14 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said: Frankly, I am not sure where your preoccupation with super advanced technologies comes from. I stated right at the beginning of this topic that it was meant to be all about Plato's Atlantis, and in that, there is little that would speak to super advanced technologies. So then, we shall restrict ourselves to the idea of Atlantis presented by Plato . (Although I have noted tenancies to not worry so much about that when other ideas are presented . If it is all about what Plato said, then we would restricted to the idea of a huge island in front of Straights off Gibraltar along with the others descriptions given by him. 14 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said: That said, I do consider the ancient teachings of astrology, alchemy and magic as highly sophisticated sciences/technologies in their own right, albeit naturally not in the modern materialistic understanding of those terms. What degree of mastery of those sciences/technologies may prehistoric civilizations have possessed, though? Not much I would say. Most development comes about after history starts to be recorded. Sure we have 'stories' . For example "persian' history starts with a note in the annals of Shalmaneser II, an Assyrian king, who reigned in the 9th century bce, where 'Parsa' are recorded as coming down from the mountain wilderness and into the valley area to the east . Much later, Persian 'history' (or 'ore-history' ) is written and a whole era is written about replete with King lists, 'history' , heroes, dragons , flying horses , etc - 'Pishdadian Era' https://www.ancient-origins.net/ancient-places-asia/early-rulers-persia-part-i-pishdadian-dynasty-005439 YET ... http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/iranian-identity-ii-pre-islamic-period 14 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said: For instance, were they able to levitate huge blocks of rock using psychic forces, possibly amplified by simple means that we would not even recognize as something of a technological nature? Nah . 14 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said: I am all for treading carefully - but there are undeniable facts that do seem to support aforesaid classical/occultist views of history, for instance those you allude to yourself in the next paragraph that I quote: Yep ... but not multi ton 'flying blocks' . . . using 'psychic forces' ... really this is in the category of 'wild speculation' . 14 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said: So this dude demonstrated that he can push a 1-ton block over some distance. Moreover, he lifted a block with a weight of 19.200 pounds (which translates to 8.7 tons, not 20 tons, as the title claims!) first three feet off the ground, then he stood it up eventually. While this is quite impressive alright, it doesn't come anywhere near what the Egyptians of the fourth dynasty did: Bringing 60 to 70-ton blocks up to a height of roughly 50 meters as building elements for the king's chamber in the Great Pyramid. They are examples of techniques , not whole projects . It was in response to what you stated : "a s long as nobody actually replicates some of the ancient Egyptians' most astounding feats with nothing but primitive tools " Do you really expect modern archaeologists to mobilise half a country workforce and economy to build a complete replica of the Great Pyramid to prove a point to 'occult theorists' ? Its more of a question of organisation motivation innovation economy politics . And those are things that motivated it in the past and would would stop it or make it 'impossible' today , more so than any technological achievements. Also I can post a wealth of info on how they supposedly DID do it . But is that our focus at present ? It is ice age and Plato's Atlantis isnt it ? 14 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said: Not to mention the 200-ton blocks our ancient masons used (much earlier, around 10.000 BC?) in constructing the Sphinx temples as though they were Lego blocks. Yes, best NOT to mention ideas that people moved 200 ton blocks like lego as that is a vast speculation , an exaggeration and I will not discuss 'giants' here . 14 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said: And here, some guys using a copper saw plus water and sand managed to cut into a granite block - how deep? 10 centimeters perhaps? "In just a few days", as they say. Thats for fine work, not for cutting huge blocks. I can show you how it is thought they did the majority of that , it isnt with copper saws . I can answer and show all this, if you want continual tangential discussions , or I can stick (like I said last post ) to Ice age and atlantis via Plato . 14 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said: Now lets do some simple math (which Graham Hancock thankfully already did for us in his Fingerprints of the Gods): The Great Pyramid has been reliably estimated to consist of 2.3 million blocks (most of them granite, though the no longer existing outer casing consisted of limestone). Assuming that it was under construction for 20 years (as the archeologists say) and that our diligent masons worked ten hours a day, 365 days a year, the rate that these blocks needed not only to be put in position (which Hancock's calculation refers to), but obviously also to be cut ready for use is a staggering 31 blocks an hour or about one block every two minutes! Is it just me or doesn't something quite add up here... Wrong assumptions dont add up very well. Hancock ... Shmamcock . 14 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said: Obviously. A LOT. Thanks for admitting that, mate! My fault is ; I try to look at both sides reasonably and I am critical of weakness or woo in either side, when I see it . 14 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said: I will resist the temptation to talk at length here about the Egyptian mummy, which a hair analysis proved to contain a fair amount of cocaine, although the coca plant was completely unknown in the pre-Columbian Old World. Good. becasue I can show pages of scientifc discourse and analysis of the results showing otherwise. Do I keep answering these things thrown thrown up - or do I still keep tyring to stick to Atlantis and Ice Age . 14 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said: Again, I made no claims as to the Atlanteans having used laser rays and the like... Or when Lemuria itself rises! I am indeed working on bringing up circumstantial evidence for Plato's lost civilization in what you may consider a piecemeal manner. I am not pretending that any single one of them would suffice as proof for its existence. Only once we see them all laid out on the table, we may safely draw our personal conclusions regarding the latter. I was indeed not holding a speech on Magdalenian art as such, but really just considering it as evidence for a supposed Atlantean influence. Hey, which happens to be our topic! Let's focus on that part for a bit then ? 14 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said: The pictures I posted were indeed just intended as examples for Magdalenian art in general. I didn't have any pictures of those harness wearing horses ready, though there are some shown in the aforementioned book Plato Prehistorian by Mary Settegast. I shall see later (when I have time) if I can scan them and present them a little further down this thread. Well, you made the claim, let's see 'em. It is fairly essential to your claim of Atlantean influence on Magdalenian art . I would love to see a picture of a Magdalenian horse with bridle ... and I dont mean some obscure line drawn that some dude says is a bridle or lead . 14 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said: Again, some of the known prehistoric cultures may have been inspired by contact with Atlantean civilization - and we will look into more possible examples for that too a little further down the road. OK . I hope we look at the evidence for it too 14 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said: Looking forward to your comments on this and my previous post, Nungers. And of course, hoping for others to chime in again too. On the previous post as well ? I did that and said I would restrain myself at present to issues about ice age and atlantis. .... I was just being 'polite' answering all the above Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Papayapple Posted March 10, 2019 That's crushing Nungali, but you haven't really answered anything, just pushed it away. I believe it'll be hard to stick to Atlantis solely, as long as we don't establish what the Egyptians could and couldn't do. Better do that than to mess around trying to make sense of some psychic's accounts. But you've got a point. Someone, somehow built it. Just like anything else. Clearly they didn't have building cranes and diamond plate saws. It took people 200 years to build Notre Dame. Isn't it more likely that the scientists got their "20 years" wrong? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apech Posted March 10, 2019 I am agnostic on Atlantis - but even that doesn't mean anything until you say with some precision what is meant by it. For instance when and for how long did this 'civilisation' exist. In what sense was it advanced? What technology would it have to have? Where according to the proposed 'influenced' cultures such as Egypt and Gobekli Tepe and so on would we expect it to be? As far as Plato is concerned how far is his description reflective of Athens i.e. a city state and so on. Perhaps this is just back projection after all. I think what we can be certain of is that Neolithic man (the hunter gatherers) were capable of much more then we give them credit for. They may have had more complex and distributed social networks, idea and knowledge about the world. Perhaps one problem might be that when anthropologists study modern hunter gatherers they are actually looking at marginal societies - whereas when this was the only lifestyle of mankind then things were different. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
