How do I learn what certain Qigong movements are actually doing?

[escott]

Can anyone point me to some resources that can explain to me what energies, meridians, etc. are being worked when I see a Qigong movement? I'm an engineer so you'll have to excuse me. When I watch someone doing Spring Forest Qigong or Tai Chi Qigong Shibashi I want to know how it is working. There must be some science that the developers of these movements used.

[whitesilk]

Having attending a university for athletics, I was up at 6 AM for workouts.

 

Walking to the gym around 5:30 there was always a group of Chinese people in what I know now as a qigong circle.

 

I will not advise you to start at the qigong level:

 

 

 

Although I may practice for my own health benefits, I do remember that to the Chinese this is a ceremonial martial art form. If you have ever seen the show "Shen Yun" then look at it like 'divine spirits dancing.' 

 

A good place to start tai chi practice, very well explained is ISBN: 0-8052-0993-X

[Spotless]

While it is true that in general each form (posture) has its general typical effective dynamic - such as the "liver" or the "lungs" in the sense of the Traditional Chinese Medical definition of those considerable systems - they also are relative to the student practicing them at the time of practice. In other words - what each posture does at any particula. r time can vary a great deal.

 

The light version of what is happening is that it is very similar to traditional Yoga - wherein energies are moved through the gross and subtle bodies. In Qi Gong the energies are consciously physically compressed and in some cases pressuring energies into the tendons and bones and marrow.

 

Energetically Qi Gong breaks up rigidified patterns from compressions of previous injuries, psychological traumas, Belief systems held in rigidity, psychic traumas and beyond. Qi Gong also fosters the movement of energy through natural pathways and in the germination of inherent pathways as well as the expunging of stagnant Qi and the revitalization of areas with low energy.

 

Qi Gong in China typically does not want to talk to what it specifically does until you are actually a "serious" student - (one that has a clue because they have practiced at least several years). It makes big claims and general outlines but you really need to feel what is going on in order to really ask your questions seriously.

 

The engineer's approach is very limiting by nature in these arts - but it also adds a good critical eye to some of the mechanics involved as one has progressed to the inner most teachings that come from practice. At some point slight physical variations become very clear factors in practice - the engineer will see the mechanical differences as they are often striking if subtle.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 21, 2019 by Spotless

[rideforever]

Most people don't know or don't care.

 

BK Frantzis teaches Dragon & Tiger qigong, and the 2nd book on this covers detailed understanding of the energetics with many diagrams.  He also has a Heaven & Earth qigong DVD that is very good where again there are detailed descriptions of energies.
Chen Tai Chi, Jan Silberstorff's book Chen, has a section on chansigong that details the energetic work, the tracks that the energy takes, the result and the concept.

Michael Winn's DVD on Five Animals, and his book moreover, describes the spirit (character) of the five animals.   This combined with learning/feeling the relevant meridiens from an atlas of acupuncture gives you what you need to know.

The Healing Tao books by Mantak Chia have large amounts of energy diagrams but the way they teach is childish and has no heart.

Mark Cohen's book on Zhan Zhuang describes the energetics of various postures and the spirit of each posture.

 

Alright, so many teachers/ forms/ traditions just don't care and take great pride in not knowing the energetics, make of that what you will.

 

As an engineer it can be of great benefit for you to learn what is happening conceptually, but this must then be married to the feeling of what is happening, and eventually just relying and working with the internal feeling.   And from time to time remembering the technical ideas.   But mostly its a feeling thing.

 

Also it is good to do all this because then you can perform the energy work correctly.   But it is not good to think that because you learnt some technical details that you can then design internal medicine by connecting this or that meridien, or tinkering with this or that.   The traditional forms are old and designed by experienced people and many details are not written down.   For instance the 5 postures that are traditionally taught in ZZ as a medical sequence were exhaustively derived at by ancient teachers by trying all possible combinations, until they found the best - which must have taken a long time.

And the most powerful qigongs like ZZ rely on getting into the right place and then the energy itself flows through and fixes everything with only a little help from you.

 

On youtube there are some videos showing the main meridiens on 3d models, and you can follow them to learn to feel them in your body.  And Boston Healing Tao has a DVD for three dantien qigong which will guide you to feeling them inside.

 

Edited February 21, 2019 by rideforever

[escott]

19 hours ago, Spotless said:

Energetically Qi Gong breaks up rigidified patterns from compressions of previous injuries, psychological traumas, Belief systems held in rigidity, psychic traumas and beyond. Qi Gong also fosters the movement of energy through natural pathways and in the germination of inherent pathways as well as the expunging of stagnant Qi and the revitalization of areas with low energy.

 

Qi Gong in China typically does not want to talk to what it specifically does until you are actually a "serious" student - (one that has a clue because they have practiced at least several years). It makes big claims and general outlines but you really need to feel what is going on in order to really ask your questions seriously.

 

I could certainly use the clearing of those things. The problem in this day and age (actually, I think it's always been a problem, i.e. snake oil) is that I don't want to buy into a line of B.S. There are supposedly thousands if Qigong methodologies. I'm willing to bet some of them are fraudulent. That's why I want to know the specific internals of what is happening so that I can discern for myself what I am getting into.

[escott]

19 hours ago, rideforever said:

Also it is good to do all this because then you can perform the energy work correctly.   But it is not good to think that because you learnt some technical details that you can then design internal medicine by connecting this or that meridien, or tinkering with this or that.   The traditional forms are old and designed by experienced people and many details are not written down.   For instance the 5 postures that are traditionally taught in ZZ as a medical sequence were exhaustively derived at by ancient teachers by trying all possible combinations, until they found the best - which must have taken a long time.

 

I see your point. Even in physics we don't know WHY any of the fundamental forces behave the way that they do. We only know from observation that things behave in this way and we have derived formulas that can predict this behavior when we plug certain parameters in.

[rideforever]

7 minutes ago, escott said:

I see your point. Even in physics we don't know WHY any of the fundamental forces behave the way that they do. We only know from observation that things behave in this way and we have derived formulas that can predict this behavior when we plug certain parameters in.

 

The explanations at least for the aforementioned teachers is correct, but energy work to become proficient at it involves you internalising sensitivity to chi, and when performing the qigongs becoming sensitive to the particular flows you are stimulating.   At some point you no longer need the diagrams.

 

But having no diagrams means that you practice at a low level.

 

[Spotless]

I practice a very old form of Qi Gong and by any standards my experiences have been fairly phenomenal and rare - but for the most part most of the Qi Gong out there that I have seen the results of are pretty good.

 

With one combined concoction a person was able to cure himself and others of Parkinson’s.

 

A student of mine came from a form of medical qi gong that rid her of stage 4 cancer.

 

A friend that I suggested Qi Gong to who broke his head open in a fall and had to re-learn his name and who he was now feels better than ever 3 years after doing Qi Gong regularly everyday - and only about 15 minutes a day. I believe he went with Spring Forrest. It has been over ten years since his accident and until 3 years ago he was a complete mess.

 

What I do see is the 6 week certificate programs and high cost retreats. I also know the personal doctor of one of those mentioned above and his client makes a mint on his Qi Gong programs, retreats and videos. (But they may be fine even though they are pricy - some people camp out and some people pay First Class).

 

I am certain that good quality instruction can be free or expensive.

(free - meaning donation if possible - my studio cost me $45 a session for rent - if donations did not cover it - it would be in a field).

 

Very few students invest real time in the practice - but even then the results are VERY noticeable.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 23, 2019 by Spotless

[Spotless]

There are very few complicated aspects of Qi Gong. This is also true of Real Yoga.

 

The basics are the secrets and practice is the way - the Way is in the fabric of your life - not just during set-aside “practice time”.

 

You can do the various posture quite wrong but over time they will right themselves if you are simply finding your way in them. And done quite imperfectly they can have wonderous effects.

 

Over-engineering and extreme perfection ideas are both nonsensical and inhibit one’s progress. They are the rigidized qualities that Qi Gong is at its heart breaking down.

 

 

 

Edited February 24, 2019 by Spotless

[Spotless]

If your goal is hard Qi Gong like pulling weights with your testicles and learning iron crotch - then pay very close attention.

 

But if you want to attain the more mundane things that are far far beyond the imaginable - then regular and fairly simple practice and Way of life is not nearly so hard to find as may be imagined.

[dawei]

On 2/18/2019 at 5:04 PM, escott said:

Can anyone point me to some resources that can explain to me what energies, meridians, etc. are being worked when I see a Qigong movement? I'm an engineer so you'll have to excuse me. When I watch someone doing Spring Forest Qigong or Tai Chi Qigong Shibashi I want to know how it is working. There must be some science that the developers of these movements used.

 

Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming is a prolific practitioner, engineer by training, and mentioned here widely...  he has so many publications that it can be dizzying as to know what to even read.   But as to his Qigong and Taiji focus, I have tested several of his ideas and found they to be well founded.    For example, in one of his early writings, he tells of a form that if done correctly will result in Qi flowing through the lip ( I forget exactly now but I tested it and found it true).

 

I tried Taiji because an online friend suggested that Qigong is much better to do as Taiji takes too much time to master...  That seemed a challenge on some level... but given a good master and a good grasp of energy (I was practicing medical qigong at the time),  I could feel the course of energy while doing Taiji... it did not take decades to feel as he claimed; it took a week or so.

 

Taiji, from my limited experience, relies on energy pressure differential.  Energy naturally flows from high to low pressure areas; one can feel this in Taiji movements. Is energy directing the mind to think as such, or it is the mind directing the energy ?

 

IMO, the mistake is to rely on the mind instead of the energy...let and feel the energy arise and flow and just observe it's symphony. 

 

 

 

 

[Spotless]

3 hours ago, dawei said:

IMO, the mistake is to rely on the mind instead of the energy...let and feel the energy arise and flow and just observe it's symphony. 

Bingo 🙏

 

Do not even expect “rise and flow” - the energies are experienced on many different levels. 

Edited February 23, 2019 by Spotless

[vonkrankenhaus]

7 hours ago, dawei said:

Taiji, from my limited experience, relies on energy pressure differential.  Energy naturally flows from high to low pressure areas; one can feel this in Taiji movements.

 

Yeah. TaiJi is YinYang - Polarity.

 

So Qigong exercises, for example, are altering the flow ("Qi") between the poles of various polarities.

 

The polarities are identifiable and observable in the body (Structure and Function), and these were correlated to the timing and appearance of both the 5 major planets (Wu Xing) and to the stars of the Big Dipper moving around the Ecliptic Pole (Lo Shu, Later Heaven sequence) and these are about Time. and also correlated to the geography and movement on Earth (Fu Hsi Early Heaven Bagua).

The Channels or "meridians" are where flow is happening, between Environment and "Organ", and between Organs and other Actions and Structures.

 

Qi is just movement between the poles of those Polarities, or "YinYang".

 

Changes we make to the polarities change this movement, which changes also structure..

 

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[Spotless]

On 2/18/2019 at 2:04 PM, escott said:

Can anyone point me to some resources that can explain to me what energies, meridians, etc. are being worked when I see a Qigong movement? I'm an engineer so you'll have to excuse me. When I watch someone doing Spring Forest Qigong or Tai Chi Qigong Shibashi I want to know how it is working. There must be some science that the developers of these movements used.

It is possible to see the inner workings of Qi Gong and the more striking particular aspect is with strings/coils of energy that are bio magnetic.

 

Several renditions of what takes place is dependent on when the flexing takes place - on the inhale or the exhale. 

 

Increasingly (with practice) the lines of energy are drawn and influxed with energy on inhale.

 

As the posture takes place on the inhale, energies between the coils/strands elaborate.

 

Depending on the way in which the posturing is applied the energies break inward such as in bone washing and marrow applications.

 

They also break outward toward impasse and break up staid energies - such as in forcefull exhalation (by this is meant to regard exhalation while flexing the muscles and or stretching them and in twisting - not as forceful exhalation of the breath). In this action they can create strong forces attracting energies from adjoining channels. As an example - some postures will by their nature activate leg and side channels very strongly though the posture might be regarded as primarily upper torso work.

 

It is a bit like a spring with a current - all sorts of things happen as an electrified current in a coil is stretched and compressed.

 

For the most part these are large fields that are quite beautiful and intricate - but very clear though during compression it is like fine sparks crush off and creating waves of color.

 

 

 

 

Edited February 24, 2019 by Spotless

[escott]

Ok, I think I'm getting a clearer picture here. It basically comes down to experience, which is basically how mastering anything works. So back to a comparison with physics: Most technical people, unless they got a PhD in math or physics have only gone as far as learning calculus and differential equations. But, there are many higher maths such as tensors, spinors, and Clifford Algebra that most people don't even know exist. So, I could have someone like Stephen Hawking show me all the math about the existence of black holes and only he and a few like him who have dedicated thier lives to similar studies would understand it. I just have to take their word for it that it is true. In the case of Qigong it is also scientific, but it is experiential. Only when a person puts in the time to learn and practice do they get the same result as the others who also learned. So, the maps of meridians and dan tiens are only a notation and only those who have internalized the abstract concept can comprehend it.

[escott]

On 2/23/2019 at 12:00 AM, Spotless said:

I practice a very old form of Qi Gong and by any standards my experiences have been fairly phenomenal and rare - but for the most part most of the Qi Gong out there that I have seen the results of are pretty good.

 

With one combined concoction a person was able to cure himself and others of Parkinson’s.

 

A student of mine came from a form of medical qi gong that rid her of stage 4 cancer.

 

A friend that I suggested Qi Gong to who broke his head open in a fall and had to re-learn his name and who he was now feels better than ever 3 years after doing Qi Gong regularly everyday - and only about 15 minutes a day. I believe he went with Spring Forrest. It has been over ten years since his accident and until 3 years ago he was a complete mess.

 

What I do see is the 6 week certificate programs and high cost retreats. I also know the personal doctor of one of those mentioned above and his client makes a mint on his Qi Gong programs, retreats and videos. (But they may be fine even though they are pricy - some people camp out and some people pay First Class).

 

I am certain that good quality instruction can be free or expensive.

(free - meaning donation if possible - my studio cost me $45 a session for rent - if donations did not cover it - it would be in a field).

 

Very few students invest real time in the practice - but even then the results are VERY noticeable.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I've gotten really interested in pursuing Zhineng Qigong. I found a course on 'Lift Qi Up, Pour Qi Down' that I'm really enjoying so far. I couldn't pass it up for $12.

 

https://www.udemy.com/lift-qi-up-pour-qi-down/

 

That's a fraction of what I would pay for a course from The Chi Center or a retreat with Mingtong Gu. Although, I think it would be nice someday. It looks like it actually takes several years to get certified through The Chi Center programs. That's a lot of $$$.

 

The thing I like about Zhineng is that it looks like a complete system that has been created in a scientific manner and tested in "The Medicineless Hospital". Also, it doesn't seem to be tied to a lineage that is dependent on a master. Instead it is a system to be learned, that produces results, and shared with others. BTW, the Udemy course above, in the very first lesson, explains the points on the body and how the movements relate to the effect on the Dan Tiens.

[Spotless]

Watched the intro vids - only comment is they had the legs together close -  in general the legs are not together as the fingers are not together as the arms do not touch one’s sides - this confuses the energies of the respective channels

by touching channels directly next to them.

[escott]

6 minutes ago, Spotless said:

Watched the intro vids - only comment is they had the legs together close -  in general the legs are not together as the fingers are not together as the arms do not touch one’s sides - this confuses the energies of the respective channels

by touching channels directly next to them.

 

It's funny you should mention this. Last night when I was doing Ba Duan Jin I got an intense itch in the palm of my left hand (laogong). I never itch there. I just let it go because I didn't want to cross meridians.

[escott]

36 minutes ago, Spotless said:

Watched the intro vids - only comment is they had the legs together close -  in general the legs are not together as the fingers are not together as the arms do not touch one’s sides - this confuses the energies of the respective channels

by touching channels directly next to them.

 

It seems like that is how the form is done. I was watching this video by Gina Lim before I purchased the course.

 

 

[rideforever]

There certainly are a whole lot of people turning these Eastern practices into income streams.
What a world.

I have found that strangely the better the teacher is the less he charges, and the fewer students he has, and the less he cares.
Everything is upside down.
Or maybe not, maybe money and crowds are the kind of coarse materials that coarse people need.
No, maybe things are the rightway up.

 

[Mudfoot]

19 hours ago, escott said:

 

The thing I like about Zhineng is that it looks like a complete system that has been created in a scientific manner and tested in "The Medicineless Hospital". Also, it doesn't seem to be tied to a lineage that is dependent on a master. Instead it is a system to be learned, that produces results, and shared with others.

If you like it, well that's good enough. 

 

If you are in to the geeky little details ( how to do the twists and turns, and how to manipulate internal sensations with that) , you might find the older systems more rewarding. 

 

 

[Spotless]

A lineage is not dependent on a master. 

 

A lineage can be traced to a master or to a group that created the lineage. And it may be that a new form is emerging that will become a lineage.

 

In general a lineage simply refers to a time tested form or teaching. One of the great things about older forms is that they generally work well and have a great deal of input.

 

The only problem with older forms is the dogma that can be attached as significant teachers and their devotees add “rules” and rigidity that is often very biased to the proclivities of that significant teacher.

 

Doing - can be something heavily added when “doing” is both unnecessary and unproductive in the larger scope - but makes “manipulation and controlling” key features rather than occasional use practices.

 

Nearly everyone loves controlling and manipulation - they are key factors in slow overall growth and in obscuring the much much larger picture.

 

 

 

 

[escott]

2 hours ago, Spotless said:

Watched the intro vids - only comment is they had the legs together close -  in general the legs are not together as the fingers are not together as the arms do not touch one’s sides - this confuses the energies of the respective channels

by touching channels directly next to them.

 

Just watched lesson 7, Reviewing The Standing Posture. They explain why the feet are close together: You want one connection going up, and one connection going down. Also, they say that a narrow stance is better for relaxed breathing.

[Mudfoot]

37 minutes ago, Spotless said:

 

Doing - can be something heavily added when “doing” is both unnecessary and unproductive in the larger scope - but makes “manipulation and controlling” key features rather than occasional use practices.

 

Any method, too controlled or too spontaneous, can outgrow its usefulness. 

 

Obscuring the goal with the method is something many teachers warn you of. 

 

One of the reasons you need a good teacher, to avoid this obstacle. 

[Spotless]

A good teacher definitely is a great boon.

 

A great asset in an old lineage is that one may meet with many teachers from that lineage. Because of this one may find that a new student teacher is excellent in the beginning and a seasoned teacher much better after a few years. 

 

Then one may move away from a teacher and yet may find a very advanced teacher when it comes to pass.

 

Newly constructed Qi Gong may also be “tailored to the Western Student” - it is a very diminished view if done generally by Eastern teachers.

 

recently an Eastern teacher of medical qi gong was quite on airs that Qi Gong was not being practiced correctly and that meditation is the key feature and the forms are additions.

 

I explained that this was the same for Yoga and provided him with my “western” background of long meditation (1-18+) hours in a sitting

and postures as about 5% of the practice. Also noted that the Pantanjali Yoga Sutras were written from a time in which it was ALL meditation and no postures. That the Way of Yoga through one’s life was and is the Teaching.

 

This appeared to be news to him on both fronts - that Yoga was like this and that a westerner actually meditated for hours at a time - as it turned out he did not meditate particularly long in any of his years of practice - typically under an hour.

 

We are wandering into a new era- the West does have many emerging fine teachers - and while the East also does - it is also full of teachers that are very substandard and along the lines of “Yoga” teachers in the West that are teaching exercise and stretching regimes with a dose of technical terms and heaven and earth energies mentioned.

 

And unfortunately China is actively trying to snuff out this incredible teaching. While Chinese Masters are actively keeping secret much that they know from the West.

 

Fortunately - secrets cannot be kept long from any of the emerging bright lights - and 100% of the BIG secrets are not secrets at all - they are part and parcel of Basic Practice and the Way.

 

 

 

Edited February 28, 2019 by Spotless