Adding Qigong to "Western" Movement practice

[Echo]

Hey, 

 

I have a very practical question and am hoping that I can get a few helpful answers.

 

I  am a fan of western movement practices (calisthenics, animal moves, etc.) but also really interested in Qigong and other eastern style energy cultivation methods. I read a few books and tried a few things but nothing serious. I am meditating daily though.

Due to time constraints I am wondering: Do you think it is necessary to do the same movements for the benefits of Qigong to manifest?

In my opinion there are underlying principles (mindfulness, breathing) which could more or less easily be incoprorated in other forms of movement.

Do you think that this will result in some/all of the benefits of Qigong practice or do you think that there is something inherent in the Qigong forms that will be lost and it therefore won't work?

 

I'm really curious about your opinions. 

[rideforever]

Materialistic practices act against nature, they are forceful and mindless, running whilst strapping a computer on your arm pumping tunes into your head so you don't feel anything, or giving yourself a weights routine so that you are totally robotising yourself so that you get muscles in fashionable areas.   Rather than competence.

( There are also actually Western spiritual movements but the seem not to be very popular, for reference )

Calisthenics animal movements functional movements barefoot running boxing and other things can be more in accordance with "spiritual" goals (goals of reality), they can represent the true cultivation of the body at some level, an honest animal's strength.

Qigong will not manifest through these movements apart from in a general way.  But you could begin with some qigong (for instance ocean breathing or cloud hands) and then continue with your other practices and if you are selective you could keep the flow going and it could be incorporated.   It could also be severed if you choose unwisely.

Meditative practices like maintaining absorption in your breathing, or inner body awareness, or mind-in-the-dantien (absorption in the presence of the dantien) whilst doing exercise is a very good thing to do.  And teaches you to unroll your meditation into daily life.  Traditionally this is taught through walking meditation or something like Yan Tai Chi Stepping .... i.e. small movements into the world where you maintain your inner state in movement.
If you use force to hold your inner state then you do it wrongly.   Then you will be imitating the outer force of western practices inside, which is harmful.   So you much first learn how to surrender/merge/absorb in the breathing (or elsewhere) and then gently bring in the movements so that you are inwardly undisturbed.   This is not very easy at the beginning and it might quickly descend into a forceful holding onto something inside.

Good way is to either begin with some qigong, or with meditation, then begin exercising slowly whilst maintaining the inner state, do that for 10 minutes or so.   Make it good inwardly.   Afterwards just let go of the inner practice and exercise normally for the remainder; don't overtry with the inner stuff or it will become force.

You might enjoy spontaneous qigong, or zhan zhuang, which don't involve complex movements - these might be more transferable to the animal movements you do.

 

Edited February 22, 2019 by rideforever

[Papayapple]

35 minutes ago, Echo said:

Do you think that this will result in some/all of the benefits of Qigong practice or do you think that there is something inherent in the Qigong forms that will be lost and it therefore won't work?

 

 

Probably the latter. At least that's what they say. I know a juggler though, who told me he goes "freestyle" with qigong and emulates it's mechanisms in his juggling! But it's the circus crowd, you know. They're nuts

[freeform]

6 hours ago, Echo said:

Do you think that this will result in some/all of the benefits of Qigong practice or do you think that there is something inherent in the Qigong forms that will be lost and it therefore won't work?

 

Qigong uses a different ‘engine’ to its movements. It’s what's called ‘internal’ movement.

 

What that means is that over time as you actually achieve the aims of Qigong, you start to use something other than your muscles (although the muscles do have a small part to play). 

 

This ‘something other’ is something like the web of connective tissue, the fascial network - although in Qigong there are obviously finer distinctions.

 

As you begin to be able to use this new ‘movement engine’ it starts to mobilise and build ‘Qi’.

 

Also Once this new engine is built in your body (it takes time), it will extend into your other movement practices. Your body will feel denser, stronger and more fully connected. And after a while you begin to develop a very noticeable vitality and energy.

 

Qigong and the likes of animal movements go very well together. But it doesn’t go well with weight training.

 

Hope that helps.

 

PS - what I’ve explained is only really with Qigong as taught by very good teachers. Most teachers just teach empty floaty movements. You’re far better off with the likes of animal movements than with bad Qigong.

[Echo]

So summarizing the things you all said, there is a part of Qigong that isn't "transferable" to other movement practices. 
Do you think that "simple" practices like Zhan Zhuang would be enough to supplement that part?

[voidisyinyang]

13 hours ago, Echo said:

Hey, 

 

I have a very practical question and am hoping that I can get a few helpful answers.

 

I  am a fan of western movement practices (calisthenics, animal moves, etc.) but also really interested in Qigong and other eastern style energy cultivation methods. I read a few books and tried a few things but nothing serious. I am meditating daily though.

Due to time constraints I am wondering: Do you think it is necessary to do the same movements for the benefits of Qigong to manifest?

In my opinion there are underlying principles (mindfulness, breathing) which could more or less easily be incoprorated in other forms of movement.

Do you think that this will result in some/all of the benefits of Qigong practice or do you think that there is something inherent in the Qigong forms that will be lost and it therefore won't work?

 

I'm really curious about your opinions. 

There is a secret nonwestern science to qigong.

So for example - basically the body movements rely on aligning the yin and yang and then the yang and yin - together at the same time. This then activates the yuan qi energy - as the aether of reality.

So for example for males the right hand is yin and upper body is yang while left hand is yang and lower body is yin. So if you align that way then you activate the body's natural free energy.

This is called "Moving of yin and yang" -

 

So then for sitting in full lotus yoga position - for males the lower body is yin and so the left leg is yang. So you want the left leg on top - so the yang embraces the yin.

Since this science is quite detailed then you can study the book Taoist Yoga: alchemy and immortality for the details of the training.

so the book is a free pdf - but the lineage of that book is from a couple websites.

So if you read the websites lineages (unlike the book) it states that doing the standing active exercises will double your results in the training.

The reason this is true is because qigong relies on celibacy to increase the qi energy. So the standing active exercise is to maintain celibacy. I go into the details in my free training pdf linked below.

https://terebess.hu/zen/mesterek/Taoist-Yoga-Alchemy-and-Immortality.pdf

there is the taoist yoga book pdf free

 

[freeform]

9 hours ago, Echo said:

Do you think that "simple" practices like Zhan Zhuang would be enough to supplement that part?

 

ZZ is an intermediate level practice. Doing it before laying the foundations (internal connectivity) will do nothing at best and stiffen you up at worst.

 

Unfortunately Qigong is a difficult and intricate art... because you’re retraining the very fundamental ‘engine’ of movement. While also building the correct body structure. This takes time as well as correct practice. It’s not easy or intuitive. It can only really be learned well with a good teacher. And you don’t see ‘benefits’ for several years.

 

So it’s much harder to train than the likes of ido portal type movement. But the upside is that once the fundamentals are down, the scope of where you can take your art is way beyond ‘the ordinary’.

[rideforever]

10 hours ago, Echo said:

Do you think that "simple" practices like Zhan Zhuang would be enough to supplement that part?

 

Yes it could be very good.  Here is an excellent tutorial that you can stand with several times listening to the details.

 

 

[freeform]

49 minutes ago, rideforever said:

Here is an excellent tutorial

 

🙈

[kyoji]

9 hours ago, freeform said:

 

ZZ is an intermediate level practice. Doing it before laying the foundations (internal connectivity) will do nothing at best and stiffen you up at worst.

 

Unfortunately Qigong is a difficult and intricate art... because you’re retraining the very fundamental ‘engine’ of movement. While also building the correct body structure. This takes time as well as correct practice. It’s not easy or intuitive. It can only really be learned well with a good teacher. And you don’t see ‘benefits’ for several years.

 

So it’s much harder to train than the likes of ido portal type movement. But the upside is that once the fundamentals are down, the scope of where you can take your art is way beyond ‘the ordinary’.

With all due respect.. What level of proficiency have you reached in qigong, or your own movement practice, to make such definite claims about the ease or difficulty of one or the other ? 

 

Some of the movement ido works on is very close in some ways to the gymnastic/joint &tendon prep modalities taught in shaolin and wudan..  And some of the greatest taiji / qigong artists I've seen are also practicing inversion, strength work etc... Why one or the other ?

 

I think a wide variety of movement practices and preparatory work could really help fertilize the ground for the inner arts to land on. 

 

Why is it that there is so much conditioning for children who grow up in temples ? Most westerners did not have this kind of formal training and our mobility is not even in the same league. 

 

Pretty hard to do anything properly when you are stiff as a board, achy and broken. Should you be practicing the internal arts when you can't even touch  your toes, or have 0 overhead mobility ?

 

These are just my two cents. Nothing more, and nothing less. 

 

Just trying to keep the conversation rolling, and maybe I am offside. But that just doesn't feel right to me. 

 

kyoji 

Edited February 23, 2019 by kyoji

[freeform]

1 hour ago, kyoji said:

With all due respect.. 

 

 

I think you completely misunderstood me. 

 

We’re actually completely in agreement.

 

I even mentioned in an earlier post in this thread that bodyweight based movement like the animal walks are an excellent (and imo necessary) component of the internal arts.

 

Core strength, flexibility, fitness and skillful control of your ‘external’ movements are a must if you want to get anywhere with the ‘internal’ arts. The only thing incompatible is lifting heavy weights.

 

In fact I’m actually replying to you after a two hour session of stretching, core work and slow, connected tiger walks.

 

[kyoji]

1 hour ago, freeform said:

 

 

I think you completely misunderstood me. 

 

We’re actually completely in agreement.

 

I even mentioned in an earlier post in this thread that bodyweight based movement like the animal walks are an excellent (and imo necessary) component of the internal arts.

 

Core strength, flexibility, fitness and skillful control of your ‘external’ movements are a must if you want to get anywhere with the ‘internal’ arts. The only thing incompatible is lifting heavy weights.

 

In fact I’m actually replying to you after a two hour session of stretching, core work and slow, connected tiger walks.

 

Ahaha, well then I'm a big ol' dingus...  

 

I missed the first post and only saw the one I quoted hehe.

 

glad we are on the same page though, or else I'd have wasted a whole lot

of my damn time prepping my body unnecessarily. 

 

After years of stubborn weight lifting and repetitive workouts, Ido portal really gave me some much needed perspective, and my body/mind continuum has benefited ten fold. 

 

 

Kindest regards,

 

Kyoji

 

 

Edited February 23, 2019 by kyoji

[oatisnottao]

On 23. 2. 2019 at 11:05 PM, freeform said:

 

In fact I’m actually replying to you after a two hour session of stretching, core work and slow, connected tiger walks.

 

Can you please give me some reference - I would also like to do the stuff you do. 

[Thrice Daily]

If you are still searching, I'd look at some Ashtanga Yoga, you would probably enjoy it, it's very dynamic and muscle oriented. You are going to get some great mobility and an awesome workout from it. You get some meditation at the end in corpse pose...

This is he practice I used to do...

 

But that of course is Yoga, for Taoism, maybe look for a Tendon Changing Classic, (Yijinjing) again it's dynamic and it is going to give you a similar satisfaction. But it is Taoist.

 

What kind of exercise do you specifically do, each day, each week? Do you have training cycles specifically?, do you do weight training?