Tin Yat Dao Sect

[Jonesboy]

5 hours ago, flowing hands said:

 

Now I begin to understand.... Married to Jonesboy who has been on my threads and presented contrary and provocative arguments at anything I might have said, and you, using your position to suspend me for questioning your motives. Hang on I can't see that in the rules, nor can I see looking at people's posts and seeing where they are at, as an offensive procedure against the rules. We are talking about the rules that govern all of us on TDB's are we not? We can all see what we say and post, there's nothing covert or wrong about this. If you look at mine they are 98% in the DDJ section. One would conclude that I am very interested in Dao writings? You will never see me posting on the New Testament or the Bible in general or other religions because of many reasons. So........

 

But undermining my title and position is and as explained by using words like "self ascribed", "self proclaimed",  "na.. Holyman" is belittling and is just as bad if not worse than calling someone an "i...t". Basically your saying that according to your 'supreme' judgement, I'm not what I say I am; is this what you are saying?

 

I might add that the term "i...t" means a person of low intelligence. So tell me, if I said he was a person of low intelligence that would be acceptable would it?

 

I can also see that politics come into this; I have openly critizied Trump and judging by posts that both you and Jonesboy have put up, you appear to be Republicans? If this is true then here is a source of aggravation towards me. If I was an American citizen (living in Arizona, which I have visited) I would be a Democrat. Religous Dao followers are normally towards helping the poor and not themselves so would vote for a socialist based political party. They would also want to help other living things and the environment. Republicans are basically capitalists and don't really give a damn about other people (they brought slavery to America) of a lesser fortune or social scale, nor the environment as a whole and as long as the money machine keeps going the environment can go to hell and so can the poor. We have a similar right wing government in my country and its just rubbish for anyone who is poor. More people are now living from food banks and living rough than at any time since the second world war and we live in the 21st century and yet the rich are still getting fantastically wealthier on the backs of the poor. Still the government cries 'this policy creates jobs and opportunities and investment'. Na ...huge lie.

 

Before I leave, I would like to see some appropriate answers. 

 

 

 

Hi flowing hands,

 

Karen does not have any issues with you because you and I disagree about climate change. I had actually forgotten about the entire discussion until I had read this post.

 

It is true I disagree with your view on politics, history, climate change and even your interruption of the deeper meaning of the TTC.

 

Who cares? I assure you Karen doesn’t.

 

Just so you know Karen has suspended me a few times  

 

Anytime where people were personally attacking me and she felt the need to defend me she has always recused herself as a mod.

 

I can assure you our discussions in no way rise to that level and I am troubled to hear that they still bother you.

 

My advice would be to use such discussions on the forum that upset you as a tool to work on letting go. As you know if you are caught up, attacking others, projecting motives onto others when you know nothing about them it is time to stop and work on ourselves.

 

A Sage is detached from such things, not caught up in the emotional upset.

 

I truly wish you the best and have no ill feelings towards you.

 

 

 

 

[Earl Grey]

I empathize with you a lot, @flowing hands. I had my own frustration last year and left for a while because of it but have made my peace accepting that some people choose what may not be the golden path and highest dharma from an outsider’s perspective (whether informed and accurate or not) but believe that it is actually their shining path.

 

I won’t sass or defend the administration here, but I will say that as guests here, we have to grit our teeth because as described earlier, it’s a cafe-like atmosphere and online, even if it’s apparent from my own training I see your skill in your values and understanding, the Internet knocks everyone down to the same level because it’s hard to verify (or perhaps more accurately, it knocks others up because of the smoke and mirrors that makes everyone a self-appointed expert or authority). 

 

I made my points in a couple threads that I won’t bother mentioning and had similar problems as this one, but now I just let Tao sort it out because those who know and understand and listen messaged me privately or understood without publicly commenting or liking my arguments. And in spite of my disappointment with the admin and their decisions, they made a point to come back to me later to show that outside of forum rules and their leadership roles here, as individuals and human beings, they understand. It’s hard to compartmentalize and still show you care when duty and personal relationships come into contact with differences in values, language, cultural and communication styles, and personal training.

 

I’d actually be happy if I had an opportunity to host group webinars here to remind everyone that the rules aren’t perfect but as humans, some semblance of order knowing those aforementioned complexities of culture and values along with  training and experiences all make it hard to manage here. But most people are busy and also are constrained by timezones and Internet quality, some don’t know how much value they would recognize in it even though this webinar is useful even for people who don’t use online forums as it’s based on two books I recommend for others: “Cultures and Organizations: Software of the Mind” by Hofstede, and “Third Culture Kids: Growing Up Among Worlds” by Pollock and Van Reken.

 

Can’t save everyone because some people need to learn based on their own soul journey as painful as it is for those of us who are Aware, capital A.

 

We can discuss more via PM or a Skype or Zoom meeting if you like.

Edited April 6, 2019 by Earl Grey

[flowing hands]

8 hours ago, GSmaster said:

 

That is a very naive line of thinking. 

Everyone has a choice of whom to listen and whom to follow, it is not like some people are telling ultimate truth online and some are lying, this divider between black and white simply does not exist. Liars and scammers (i dont claim that someone is one) are actually best teachers, because they develop your critical thinking and understanding of reality. The worst is when person is grown in soft conditions and believes everyone as a domestic animal would do.  Protecting someone from something once, you deny their ability to develop selfprotection, and be well in the distant future.

 

I had a teacher who was a master in deception, he had a lot of abilities, and he was mixing lies and truths so perfectly, nobody could tell. When I started to see the difference, I have attained enlightenment, siddhi and benefitted hugely. Before that I was just a fly in the spidernet. But now, no spidernets or illusions can contain myself.

 

Actually, peoples choices are very much influenced and controlled by others. Step outside yourself for a while and see what your thinking is, what you buy and how you live for starters. When you've really done this and seen that actually we are manipulated on a grand scale you can see that other people can manipulate you take your money and rights and you can do it willingly. Self protection is no guard against it, but personal understanding of the whole psychology of using position, power and in this case the use of theatre to manipulate, will make you aware and wary of what people are doing. Making people aware is a starting point and is not naive thinking, but a path to thinking more deeply about things and not accepting things on face value. My point on this thread, like Phil Collins wrote his song about the American Christian preachers who ask for money to pray for miracles for people, but they are just as bad as a criminals themselves. My point here is the same, using false identity (the use of the words of 'sigung' Grand Master) and titles and knowledge, theatre and costume to fake genuine practice. Many people like those Americans looking for healing gave a great deal of money to those Christian preachers. Its happening all the time and all over the world, people are being manipulated by politics, religion and power for position and money. Knowing that this is what is happening is half the battle.

[lifeforce]

12 hours ago, Kar3n said:

insulting another member of this forum

 

 

 

You do realize that the 'forum member' in question hasn't been active for years, and that he is vocal in his videos, attacking TDB and it's members.

Maybe these people do need calling out for what they are.

Trying to let folks know the pitfalls of following such people should be allowed here.

We've lost too many good members here recently, which started off with a difference in opinion.

[flowing hands]

9 hours ago, Jonesboy said:

 

Hi flowing hands,

 

Karen does not have any issues with you because you and I disagree about climate change. I had actually forgotten about the entire discussion until I had read this post.

 

It is true I disagree with your view on politics, history, climate change and even your interruption of the deeper meaning of the TTC.

 

Who cares? I assure you Karen doesn’t.

 

Just so you know Karen has suspended me a few times  

 

Anytime where people were personally attacking me and she felt the need to defend me she has always recused herself as a mod.

 

I can assure you our discussions in no way rise to that level and I am troubled to hear that they still bother you.

 

My advice would be to use such discussions on the forum that upset you as a tool to work on letting go. As you know if you are caught up, attacking others, projecting motives onto others when you know nothing about them it is time to stop and work on ourselves.

 

A Sage is detached from such things, not caught up in the emotional upset.

 

I truly wish you the best and have no ill feelings towards you.

 

 

 

 

 

I am not caught up in any emotional upset.

 

You are doing what you are saying I have done. This is half the trouble people don't see what they are actually doing themselves. Whether you agree with what I have to say is your choice. If you disagree with my understanding of the DDJ, you are simply missing probably the most unique experience there could be involved in that major Dao work. The author has been my teacher for 37 years. That is of course down to your belief and perspective.

[Mudfoot]

31 minutes ago, flowing hands said:

 

If you disagree with my understanding of the DDJ, you are simply missing probably the most unique experience there could be involved in that major Dao work./... ... /That is of course down to your belief and perspective.

This becomes a problem on a forum. 

And in real life also, because in that lies the claim that every other daoist school base their teaching on flawed material and/or flawed understanding. 

 

That also devalues your critisism on whatever the other dudes name is, because it becomes hard to tell whether you are on his case because he is "creative" (=makes it up as he goes) or if this is just another secterian Pie - throwing contest (which fills this forum). 

 

I like your posts more when you downplay yourself and discuss the issue at hand more. 

Your post about Fa versus actually having a spiritual teacher was very good, to name an example. 

[flowing hands]

7 minutes ago, Mudfoot said:

This becomes a problem on a forum. 

And in real life also, because in that lies the claim that every other daoist school base their teaching on flawed material and/or flawed understanding. 

 

That also devalues your critisism on whatever the other dudes name is, because it becomes hard to tell whether you are on his case because he is "creative" (=makes it up as he goes) or if this is just another secterian Pie - throwing contest (which fills this forum). 

 

I like your posts more when you downplay yourself and discuss the issue at hand more. 

Your post about Fa versus actually having a spiritual teacher was very good, to name an example. 

 

Well he's certainly creative and I'm getting bored now with this thread and I'm going to do something more positive than being scrutinized for being a Dao Holyman

38 minutes ago, GSmaster said:

What makes you think that you are genuine priest, with rights to take money for healing or whatever you do?

 

 I never take money

[Kar3n]

1 hour ago, lifeforce said:

 

You do realize that the 'forum member' in question hasn't been active for years, and that he is vocal in his videos, attacking TDB and it's members.

Maybe these people do need calling out for what they are.

Trying to let folks know the pitfalls of following such people should be allowed here.

We've lost too many good members here recently, which started off with a difference in opinion.

Active or inactive is irrelevant, still a member.

 

At least he has taken his grievances elsewhere.

 

General rule is to pick apart the system or pactice, not the person.

[Geof Nanto]

I find many threads on Dao Bums a rich source of insight into our human psychology.  I read this one out of general interest. I have no knowledge of, and am not curious to find out about the sect in question.  

 

Whilst I’m personally not interested in bagging other people’s paths, the discussion here seemed to me to be well within the norms of this often lively and confrontational forum. Hence I was surprised at the moderator intervention. Especially as it did come across, in part, as a personal attack on Flowing Hands. 

 

Having said that, I do find it annoying that Flowing Hands claims the divine authority of Laozi for his views; views that come across as very human in their mixture of wisdom and folly. (In particular, his attacking behaviour on this forum is far removed from the sage of the Daodejing.)  Like many of us here, he comes across as a flawed human, doing his best to follow an authentic spiritual calling. I personally think he has an inflated ego, but that is something that's common for people who have felt real contact with other dimensions. It's an insidious trap that everyone must work through in their own way. It's insidious because a person in ego inflation is totally unable to recognise it. (I speak from personal experience.) It can only be seen in retrospect. 

[Kar3n]

11 minutes ago, Yueya said:

I find many threads on Dao Bums a rich source of insight into our human psychology.  I read this one out of general interest. I have no knowledge of, and am not curious to find out about the sect in question.  

 

Whilst I’m personally not interested in bagging other people’s paths, the discussion here seemed to me to be well within the norms of this often lively and confrontational forum. Hence I was surprised at the moderator intervention. Especially as it did come across, in part, as a personal attack on Flowing Hands. 

 

Having said that, I do find it annoying that Flowing Hands claims the divine authority of Laozi for his views; views that come across as very human in their mixture of wisdom and folly. (In particular, his attacking behaviour on this forum is far removed from the sage of the Daodejing.)  Like many of us here, he comes across as a flawed human, doing his best to follow an authentic spiritual calling. I personally think he has an inflated ego, but that is something that's common for people who have felt real contact with other dimensions. It's an insidious trap that everyone must work through in their own way. It's insidious because a person in ego inflation is totally unable to recognise it. (I speak from personal experience.) It can only be seen in retrospect. 

Nope, not meant to be any sort of attack against anyone. It was a general statement he grasped on to instead of simply moving on. Had I been speaking to FH, I would have quoted him.

 

An observation- your comments about FH could also be construed as a personal attack even when speaking from personal experience though I do not believe that was your intent.

 

Maybe we should all be more careful with our words? This is, after all, the internet where the written word is not always conveyed or read in the manner intended.

[Geof Nanto]

@Kar3n

 

Am I replying to you as a moderator, or as a normal member of this forum? It creates difficulty when you come into a discussion wearing two hats. For instance, I have no problems with you describing Flowing Hands as “a self-proclaimed holy man” as a normal member, but I don’t think it’s appropriate for a moderator to do so, especially when warning said member about insulting others. 

 

The comments I post here are a reflection of where I'm at. I don't claim to be other than a person who's a mixture of both light and dark. I try to be constructive because I value this forum and regularly acknowledge the vital and often difficult role staff play.  If Flowing Hands perceives my comment as an attack, that’s his business. When I write something I sincerely feel, I do so with the intent that others may find it helpful. And for me personally the responses I get, both written and in the invisible, help me gain insight into hidden aspects of my own psyche; especially insight into my own darkness. In that way my participation on this forum has helped me enormously in my personal cultivation. 
 

[Kar3n]

1 hour ago, Yueya said:

@Kar3n

 

Am I replying to you as a moderator, or as a normal member of this forum? It creates difficulty when you come into a discussion wearing two hats. For instance, I have no problems with you describing Flowing Hands as “a self-proclaimed holy man” as a normal member, but I don’t think it’s appropriate for a moderator to do so, especially when warning said member about insulting others. 

 

The comments I post here are a reflection of where I'm at. I don't claim to be other than a person who's a mixture of both light and dark. I try to be constructive because I value this forum and regularly acknowledge the vital and often difficult role staff play.  If Flowing Hands perceives my comment as an attack, that’s his business. When I write something I sincerely feel, I do so with the intent that others may find it helpful. And for me personally the responses I get, both written and in the invisible, help me gain insight into hidden aspects of my own psyche; especially insight into my own darkness. In that way my participation on this forum has helped me enormously in my personal cultivation. 
 

Member or moderator, I call it like I see it. If that's an issue there's not a whole lot I can do about it. I'll never be anyone other who I am, not for bums or anyone else.

[liminal_luke]

Just to name a personal preference -- I like threads which promote more than ones that detract.  The most productive discussion happens when someone starts (or continues) a practice and is willing to share a positive story about it, how doing XYZ has helped them in their life.  Threads telling me not to do something don´t seem nearly as useful.

 

Do knowledgable folks have an obligation to warn others of dead-ends?  I get the argument and don´t dispute it.  I just prefer the positive vibes I get when reading about people excited about doing great things.

 

 

 

[Earl Grey]

1 hour ago, liminal_luke said:

Just to name a personal preference -- I like threads which promote more than ones that detract.  The most productive discussion happens when someone starts (or continues) a practice and is willing to share a positive story about it, how doing XYZ has helped them in their life.  Threads telling me not to do something don´t seem nearly as useful.

 

Do knowledgable folks have an obligation to warn others of dead-ends?  I get the argument and don´t dispute it.  I just prefer the positive vibes I get when reading about people excited about doing great things.

 

 

 

 

One view is seeing it like nutrition and medicine: some may prescribe and tell us that “this medication has side effects worse than the issue it treats so avoid it” or others say that “this soul food won’t help you get what you need to be fulfilled”.

 

 I could know what’s good for me but not necessarily know what’s bad for me until someone points it out. Example is the variation of iron shirt taught in our school, our late teacher as I’ve mentioned in another thread died because he changed it a bit only to realize he had no need to change it as it can cause bone cancer. So in other words, we can talk about even within a system why something is good without talking about a technique or individual for another, but we also need to discuss what is bad in order to protect ourselves from harm.

[Earl Grey]

39 minutes ago, GSmaster said:

 

So what did he do / change that could cause bone cancer?

 

This is a gift to ALL practitioners of iron shirt according to him and his successor: DO NOT HIT USING YOUR KNUCKLES ON YOUR FLESH. Just use your palms. Those who do this variation of iron shirt using the body tapping version will understand, those who do the internal version using breathing and mind won't need to worry at all (I do both).  

 

He wants everyone to know because the world could lose true gems of individuals who don't know this simple mistake cost the martial world his life. 

Edited April 7, 2019 by Earl Grey

[flowing hands]

11 hours ago, Yueya said:

I find many threads on Dao Bums a rich source of insight into our human psychology.  I read this one out of general interest. I have no knowledge of, and am not curious to find out about the sect in question.  

 

Whilst I’m personally not interested in bagging other people’s paths, the discussion here seemed to me to be well within the norms of this often lively and confrontational forum. Hence I was surprised at the moderator intervention. Especially as it did come across, in part, as a personal attack on Flowing Hands. 

 

Having said that, I do find it annoying that Flowing Hands claims the divine authority of Laozi for his views; views that come across as very human in their mixture of wisdom and folly. (In particular, his attacking behaviour on this forum is far removed from the sage of the Daodejing.)  Like many of us here, he comes across as a flawed human, doing his best to follow an authentic spiritual calling. I personally think he has an inflated ego, but that is something that's common for people who have felt real contact with other dimensions. It's an insidious trap that everyone must work through in their own way. It's insidious because a person in ego inflation is totally unable to recognise it. (I speak from personal experience.) It can only be seen in retrospect. 

 

Of course you are entitled to your opinion, but you are not me and you only know me from my writings on this forum. Writings of course are easily misinterpreted, because we have differing perspectives. My path is very different to yours I would think. My Masters are divine, I have had no human master and yet, I have had great respect from the martial art community for the martial arts I used to teach as very genuine. So I come from the old school of martial and spiritual practice this is not an easy path and the level of achievement I have attained was won by self sacrifice and overcoming that ego you talk about. But  alot of people are not very honest or straight forward, I would say one of my faults if it is one,  I am both straight forward I have no side or dishonesty. So if I say one of my masters is Lao Zi, I am merely being honest. Many people including yourself have a problem with this due to their own perspectives and ego centred problems of self worth. I don't, I am just being honest.

 

When I was a child I used to see 'Sky people', I thought this was very odd, When I was accepted as an adult to become a shaman/medium etc I knew somehow this was my destiny. Then some years after that I read a book about world shamanism and one of the things that occurs in most shamanism is that as a child the shaman to be, will see 'sky people' and so their destiny will be fixed and however they try they will not be able avoid it. So when I went into the temple in Malaysia, burnt some incense, knelt on my knees and begged for the Immortal Master to draw the fa fu, I didn't even know the names of those divinr masters, but he came to me in a very short time. The medium in the temple couldn't believe his eyes/ totally shocked, a white man (devil man) being able to draw the fa fu, fa shui in an incredible short time and so powerfully.

Some would say to me what the hell are you doing on a forum and they have done very often, I might add, forums are full of all sorts of people who smoke screen themselves to be this and that and have all sorts of problems. I say, I am a traditional shaman, there are not many of us still around amongst the plastic, my work is to show what the true teachings of the divine are, and to help people if they need help. If this brings me into disrepute with others, then so be it. I am also human, lets not forget that and making mistakes is part of being human and of a growing evolving experience.

 

So if you have a problem with my honesty I think you need to look at your own reasons for that.

[flowing hands]

On 4/6/2019 at 10:44 AM, GSmaster said:

What makes you think that you are genuine priest, with rights to take money for healing or whatever you do?

 

This of course could also be perceived as a personal attack!

[flowing hands]

And now for a little light music

 

 

[flowing hands]

Here's Peter Popoff, exposed time and time again on his many, many scams!

 

 

[flowing hands]

And a little more for your delectation

 

 

 

[rene]

I find no usefulness in disparaging others' realities.

[flowing hands]

1 hour ago, rene said:

I find no usefulness in disparaging others' realities.

 

I think if one was very ill and looking for hope to solve that illness or problem and one gave their last $1,000 to a fraudster as above and one found that actually they'd been had, one would feel rather disparaged themselves don't you think?

I once was nearly killed, I spent two months in a hospital in one position. I had to learn to walk again and by the time I had got home I then suffered PTSS to add to my trauma. I had little money and If I had believed in God and gave my last money to a fraudster in hope that I would feel better, that would have been an even worse disaster. What makes this sicker than big business ripping workers off etc is that this man is preying on the most vulnerable and those who mostly can ill afford to add to his $23 million profit he made in one year alone.

 

Better to know what the world is like and what people do than bury one's head in the sand or be ripped off in the name of God, or in the name of anything else!

Edited April 7, 2019 by flowing hands
expand on point

[lifeforce]

10 minutes ago, flowing hands said:

Better to know what the world is like and what people do than bury one's head in the sand or be ripped off in the name of God.

 

Some people will believe absolutely anything that's put in front of them. That's the way the world is, and it's getting worse by the day.

These televangelists live in luxury, complete with huge mansions, designer yachts and private jets. All paid for by the gullible masses, hoping for a way into heaven.

But hey, don't let the likes us try and advise people to keep away from them God forbid !

[rene]

I also find no usefulness in thinking that I know what is 'better' for someone else.

[flowing hands]

20 minutes ago, lifeforce said:

 

Some people will believe absolutely anything that's put in front of them. That's the way the world is, and it's getting worse by the day.

These televangelists live in luxury, complete with huge mansions, designer yachts and private jets. All paid for by the gullible masses, hoping for a way into heaven.

But hey, don't let the likes us try and advise people to keep away from them God forbid !

 

Trouble is that God doesn't give a damn , (he's too busy practicing Wu wei), for we are all born sinful according to the Bible, so we might as well get on with it and have a jolly good time and rip each other off and enjoy the fruits of our sin ! No I won't mention the snake and the apple I promise!!!