A Toltec view of Self

[Stigweard]

[clearclouds]

Excellent post. The concept of the Tonal seems to be quite a good umbrella term for the endless array of interference that self has between itself and connection with emptiness.

 

I wonder if they were able to take the concept beyond just theory to the extent that the Taoists did with their ability to extend life and access the unlimited power of the void for here-and-now use in life.

[三江源]

.

Edited April 19, 2015 by 三江源

[Stigweard]

Taoism and the Toltec path have many similarities and can supplement each other in many ways. In a real sense they are both 'sciences' exploring the same universal reality.

 

As an example, practices like qigong and taijiquan achieve the Toltec goal because they work in two powerful ways. Firstly they work to liberate the energy locked away in the blockages within one's system; blockages that arise from the energetic enmeshment of our consciousness as a result of our internal dialogue fixations. Thus by clearing these internal blockages you are dissolving your 'view of the world', thus bringing your awareness back to original purity.

 

And also, because qigong and taijiquan necesitates unified awareness, it serves as a 'sensory saturation' and thus stops the internal dialogue.

[doc benway]

Very nice post, Stig.

I was first exposed to Toltec tradition through Castaneda's work in the late '70's (geeze, geeze... wheeze, wheeze.... ).

I reread his ouevre last year. Truth or fiction (much more likely), it is wonderful stuff.

 

Another reason why the tonal is our friend and ally (I'm using this word in the ordinary sense) - it is that which develops and acts on the drive, in some of us, to begin questioning itself and looking for what is beyond.

 

Here's a question: does the drive to experience the nagual (Dao, the Self, God, truth, enlightenment...) originate in the big Self (nagual) or the little self (tonal)?

[Stigweard]

Here's a question: does the drive to experience the nagual (Dao, the Self, God, truth, enlightenment...) originate in the big Self (nagual) or the little self (tonal)?

 

I believe the natural drive in nature is to become whole and harmonious, so in my view there is a deep natural urge in us all to become reunited with the Universal Essence (in this context the Nagual). So my understanding is that the drive to experience the nagual originates in the "big Self".

 

Through the act of self-preservation, our Tonal fixations have a tendency to fight tooth and nail when faced with the prospect of annihilation (i.e. merging with the Nagual). This tendency is often witnessed when, after a period of spiritual progression, a practitioner 'springs' back to old habitual behaviour.

 

This 'two-steps-forward-one-step-back' affair continues until these threads of self-attachment (which can also be called 'self-importance') are sufficiently weakened and dissolved. It is not that our Tonal is erased, it is just that we no longer have attachments to it.

[forestofsouls]

[Stigweard]

First off, some of those exercises I had not encountered before and sound interesting.

 

But how does other inner content fit into the Tonal? Mental images, associations, feelings (bodily, emotional and mental), etc.

 

To clarify further the Tonal can be also be referred to as the "known" whilst the Nagual is the "unknowable". So your inner content would still be part of the Tonal as it can be known.

 

Important point here is that the Tonal also covers that which is unknown but can be knowable. For example Qi perception for many is unknown but with the right sort of instruction and practice and it can be known.

 

I agree with Freeform's usage of the term 'bandwidth' when it comes to our cognitive awareness.

 

Purely as a hypothetical model of example, let us say that humans are able to percieve from bandwidth 89 through to bandwidth 144. However most people, through their social conditioning, only perceive from 95 to 105. So for these people their Tonal (i.e. their known) is the bandwidth 95-105, which means their unknown are the bandwidths from 89-94 and from 106-144 (again purely hypothetical).

 

If this model has any congruency to universal reality then the first 'step' or objective is to engage in disciplined self-cultivation to access the full range of human potentional (89 through to 144 in the above hypothetical example), this in Taoist translation is the emergence or revitalisation of the Original Self, Original Spirit, or True Nature.

 

Once the wholeness of self-nature is achieved then comes the alchemical process of sublimation where consciousness 'ascends' into a bandwidth beyond human possibility which, from the reference point of human awareness, can only be called the Nagual, the unknowable.

[Stigweard]

My wife, Carol, has developed an interestingly effective technique for silencing the internal dialogue. A case of using the features of the Tonal to unravel the Tonal.

 

We have been having a stressful period with our teenage daughter (enough said) and it was really throwing my wife's emotions around. I made a point of this and suggested she implement a way for her to interrupt the disturbing thought patterns she was having. She turned and smiled at me with that all knowing glint in her eye and told me what she had accomplished.

 

Carol is a singer who has also participated in quite a few kirtan chanting groups. Using what comes natural to her she has started chanting Om Mani Padma Hum in her mind ... but get this -- she is actually singing the chant in multipart cannon with each part harmonising with the others. Apparently she has got 2 parts down solid and is working on the third and will aim at a four part harmonised cannon in her head !!!

 

As you can imagine her internal dialogue ceases completely and she is able to create the state change of her choosing.

 

I love it!

[Mantra68]

Great post!

 

I personally can relate to the experience of dissolving the Tonal via the Kunlun method. But while it takes you through your own history and clears things quickly, you inevitably end up at the barrier of self-identity.

 

Standing on that threshold is an interesting experience and you will face some tough questions. How do you break the barrier? Can you let go all the way? If you do, what happens to "you?"

 

Most people will find that it is too much and they will resign themselves to the safe belief that they are happy with where they are at. They may approach the edge again later, but more cautiously and with baby steps.

 

The dissolved state is the Dragon Body or Diamond/Rainbow body and, I believe, you need a very enlightened mind to allow such a release of form.

Edited February 24, 2008 by Mantra68

[Stigweard]

Standing on that threshold is an interesting experience. How do you break the barrier? Can you let go all the way? If you do, what happens to "you?"

 

This threshold is quite literally 'the edge of a cliff over the void'; the verge between our tonal and the awesomeness of an infinitely unlimited universe. Our words and instruction can lead us to the edge but beyond that the practitioner has naught to do but jump (or be pushed lol). The "what happens to you?" is totally irrelavent because it is indescribable. It is your attachment to 'you' that is the barrier.

 

Most people will find that it is too much and they will resign themselves to the safe belief that they are happy with where they are at. They may approach the edge again later, but more cautiously and with baby steps.

 

Without an authentic teacher, or Nagual (of which I make absolutely no claim to be in any way shape or form ... lol had to be said ), the best way is 'cautiously and with baby steps'. This is where I believe the Taoist tradition has so much to offer.

 

Step 1: Nourish and integrate your three treasures Jing, Qi, and Shen

Step 2: Cultivate virtue

Step 3: Silence the internal dialogue

 

Note that these three steps are simultaneous. Do this and at the very least you will have the foundation of a healthy, happy life. Don't bother heading to the cliff's edge until you do (I know of at least one foolhardy yet eternally optimistic practioner who tried to do so ... hahhahahahaa )

 

Ahem ... where was I? Oh yes...

 

The dissolved state is the Dragon Body or Diamond/Rainbow body and, I believe, you need a very enlightened mind to allow such a release of form.

 

Try not to get too attached to your classifications. In all likelihood the founders of your tradition came up with these terms as their best description of a state of being that is beyond rational comprehension. The names are the proverbial finger pointing to the moon.

[宁]

hi Stig, ive been a Castaneda fan myself, i wonder if you read the books of marylin tunnenshende (i dont know if its spelled right), and if so, what is you oppinion on it

 

thanx

[Stigweard]

hi Stig, ive been a Castaneda fan myself, i wonder if you read the books of marylin tunnenshende (i dont know if its spelled right), and if so, what is you oppinion on it

 

thanx

 

 

Hehehe Castaneda was a wild ride but in terms of books I find Theun Mares to be much more lucid and practical. Sorry don't know much of Merilyn Tunneshende.

[宁]

what does he say about the 21 abstract cores and their ideograms? i was always puzzled about them. how do they look, what do they mean. thanx again

[Stigweard]

[doc benway]

A friend recently loaned me some books by Don Miguel Ruiz. He spoke highly of them.

Anyone read his work? Comments?

[三江源]

.

Edited April 20, 2015 by 三江源

[宁]

hi stig, my gut tells me the abstract cores are part of DJ's tradition, but maybe have a different name. the fact that theun mares adds some ideogram to them makes them even more attractive... for me.

i heard there is a hidden journal of CC, some guy told me a couple of years ago he bought it at some 300$, i donno where he found it, but he told me there is some material that describes in full all the practices CC hints about in his books.

heck, there is even the creation of the dantian (not with this name), with some breathing and focus meditations... i hope i could find it someday, im sure it wasnt just bogus

 

L1

[三江源]

Did you see that documentary about CC? I saw it on the BBC.

 

 

you might find it interesting. Here it is on youtube.

 

 

Tales from the Jungle

[Stigweard]

Did you see that documentary about CC? I saw it on the BBC.

you might find it interesting. Here it is on youtube.

Tales from the Jungle

 

Yes, thank you for posting this. Anyone reading Carlos' books are advised to do so with extreme caution and discernment.

 

The Toltec model can be a useful reference point to help organise our thoughts and awareness, and to that end it does so most admirably. My main practice, however, is predominately Taoist as I believe the Taoist tradition is both more holistic and is available to us in an infinitely more complete and functional format.

[KoHsuan]

hi Stig, ive been a Castaneda fan myself, i wonder if you read the books of marylin tunnenshende (i dont know if its spelled right), and if so, what is you oppinion on it

 

thanx

 

Hi Little1,

 

Marilyn Tunneshende is nothing close to Carlos... fiction without any practise...

[freeform]

My wife, Carol, has developed an interestingly effective technique for silencing the internal dialogue. A case of using the features of the Tonal to unravel the Tonal.

 

Sounds great

 

Breaking it down into the VAK (visual, auditory and kinesthetic) model, it's interesting to see what happened. Internal dialogue is based on our Auditory function - we hear sounds, take them out of context, fit them into a static pattern and out comes a word... it's 'digital' in the sense that digital is the use of two discreet/separate pieces - 0 and 1...

 

Actual sound is never digital - there is no duality of sound and silence (this is an artificial creation) - there is no beginning and end to a sound - that tree in the forest is making a constant sound whether it hits the ground or carries on growing as normal... This becomes amusingly obvious when we listen to completely foreign languages - just hearing the sound of speech instead of meaning opens us up so much (the Tonal, of course thinks it closes us down )

 

One thing I do with my auditory sense (that always results in the stoppage of internal dialogue) is externalise, and de-specify - what this means is I stop listening to my thoughts and memories (internal) and I start listening to what can be heard right here, right now - to start from outside of me... except I dont use only my ears to listen, I use my entire body as a listening instrument - and something magical happens when I do that - when the whole body is recruited in listening, I become enveloped in a soundscape - the mind doesn't differentiate the sounds into separate bits, it all comes in at once with minimal filtering/editing by the Tonal, and suddenly that little "I" disappears!

 

Chanting requires using the whole body to make sound! What a fantastic combination with proper listening practice - thanks to you I have some interesting exploration on the way...

 

I've been playing quite deeply with the senses recently - I might start a separate thread for each of the senses when I feel the time is right...

[Ian]

except I dont use only my ears to listen, I use my entire body as a listening instrument - and something magical happens when I do that - when the whole body is recruited in listening, I become enveloped in a soundscape - the mind doesn't differentiate the sounds into separate bits, it all comes in at once with minimal filtering/editing by the Tonal, and suddenly that little "I" disappears!

 

Barry Long always used to require his listeners to do this...

[Stigweard]

One thing I do with my auditory sense (that always results in the stoppage of internal dialogue) is externalise, and de-specify - what this means is I stop listening to my thoughts and memories (internal) and I start listening to what can be heard right here, right now - to start from outside of me... except I dont use only my ears to listen, I use my entire body as a listening instrument - and something magical happens when I do that - when the whole body is recruited in listening, I become enveloped in a soundscape - the mind doesn't differentiate the sounds into separate bits, it all comes in at once with minimal filtering/editing by the Tonal, and suddenly that little "I" disappears!

 

Chanting requires using the whole body to make sound! What a fantastic combination with proper listening practice - thanks to you I have some interesting exploration on the way...

 

I've been playing quite deeply with the senses recently - I might start a separate thread for each of the senses when I feel the time is right...

 

This is from "The Workbook for Spiritual Development of all People" by Master Ni, Hua-Ching:

 

Yen Hwei asked, "What is the essence of purification? I beg to know."

 

The teacher replied, "You begin by concentrating on the ears. Do not listen with the faculty of hearing, but with your mind. What ears can hear is meaningless sound. Then listen, not with the mind, but with your energy. What the mind can hear is changeable phenomena. Only chi does not objectify things, but is receptive to all. Then there is only the true path which exists in the great void. To be empty-minded is the essence of purification."

[Stigweard]

This was posted in another thread ... thought it would be at home here

 

---------------------

 

Within the infinite spectrum of awareness universally possible we have a narrow bandwidth called the 'human experience'. This bandwidth is atrophied even further to a meagre sliver due to social conditioning.

 

 

When I agreed with TaoMeow that 'enlightenment' is to be fully human my description of that would be someone who is embodying the full human potential.

 

The question remains then that, if the practitioner is able to gain full mastery of one's awareness, is it possible before physical death to access alignments of awareness that lie beyond the human potential?