Abortion

[lifeforce]

2 hours ago, thelerner said:

We all know we're talking about abortion for poor people, right?  That if you have enough money, you'll have a choice.  If you're poor you don't or risk your life with an illegal back alley abortion.  We're clear that those are the real choices we're debating here?

 

But here in the UK where healthcare is free, terminations are carried out by our National Health Service, in cozy hospitals, regardless of income.

[Pilgrim]

8 minutes ago, Spotless said:

The pain and suffering issue is not so simple as it might seem. And even the popular videos of those opposing abortion are not as clear cut as the reactions and conclusions to and from them often are

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2016/05/05/us/utah-abortion-law-fetal-anesthesia.amp.html

Interesting according to this then we are looking at the second trimester between the 18th and 24th week being the time when pain is possible.

 

Based on this I would abandon trimesters as a measurement and revise my stance to say 16 weeks to be safe. 

 

Thank you for more information.

 

 

[Spotless]

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/05/the-many-countries-where-abortion-still-banned/

 

Over the last 20 years, more than 35 countries have expanded safe access to abortion. But three countries in Central America - Honduras, El Salvador and Nicaragua - have tightened restrictions. Over the same period, democracy in these three states has weakened, argues Professor Larissa Arroyo Navarrete, suggesting a link between the lack of rule of law in a country, and threats to its women's rights. 

In El Salvador, where abortion is totally banned, authorities can prosecute women whose pregnancies end before 40 weeks, even if by miscarriage or stillbirth, if they are suspected of harming their fetus. Prison sentences range from two to eight years, though some women have been convicted on charges of aggravated homicide and sentenced for up to 30 years. 

El Salvador also defied calls from the UN to relax its abortion laws throughout the Zika virus crisis. The mosquito-borne Zika virus is linked to congenital abnormalities, including microcephaly, in babies born to mothers who contracted the virus.

[thelerner]

1 hour ago, Aetherous said:

 

Think of it like this: if a daughter or friend murdered a 12 year old, would you be okay with them being locked up for years? That's not such a hard question.

right, if they murdered a 12 year old, its not a hard decision, I'd want them locked up.  If they were pregnant, considered it, weighed there options carefully and decided to have an abortion, I'd be sorry, recognize it as sad, but wouldn't judge them or call them a murderer.  I wouldn't want them to go to prison for years because of it. I wouldn't think they were horrible, unethical woman.

 

I take it, you'd consider them killers, treat them as such and want to see them locked up for years.   

 

Hopefully we won't be in that situation, but many people get caught in it.

Edited March 22, 2019 by thelerner

[Spotless]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/2016-02-08/10-countries-where-abortion-is-illegal-under-most-circumstances%3fcontext=amp

 

Basically a highly Catholic (Christian) enterprise 

but as we see the demise of the Catholic Church taking place worldwide we also see the general subjugation of women fading and womens rights blossoming.

Edited March 22, 2019 by Spotless

[Spotless]

Pronouncements on family planning and abortion have a long history in Muslim thought. Early Muslim 

theologians supported contraception as long as both partners consented. Most scholars agreed abortions were allowed if pregnancies ended before ensoulment of the fetus, described as occurring between 40, 90 or 120 days after conception, depending on the school of thought.11BF Musallam. Sex and Society in Islam. 1983; Cambridge University Press: Cambridge. [Google Scholar]

 

 Usually, a justifiable reason is needed for terminating a pregnancy, e.g. to protect a breastfeeding child, socio-economic concerns or health reasons.12

[Spotless]

The subject of Ensoulment 

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ensoulment

 

The tricky argument for or against terminating a life when it is still considered an animal - one that may indeed animate and suffer but is not considered Ensouled yet.

[liminal_luke]

2 hours ago, Aetherous said:

 

 

I wish you'd honestly address the issue...when does life begin? It's not a hard question. What is a sign of being alive, scientifically speaking? 

 

When does life begin?  In posing this question you seem to assume that I know the answer -- or think I do -- and am just holding out to be difficult.  That´s not the case.  Obviously heterosexual sex kicks off the whole shebang and there are a number of signposts along the way that we might point to as start-of-life moments.  You picked an obvious albeit early one, the moment of conception.  Somebody else might say the moment when there´s a beating heart, or when the fetus can feel pain.  Birth, the moment when the fetus physically separates from the mother, seems a pretty clear demarcation point.  An argument could be made that newborns don´t experience themselves as separate from the mother even after birth,  and perhaps haven´t really come into their own as separate beings until this awareness kicks in.  There´s also the spiritual argument that the baby is alive as a separate being after it´s ensouled, whenever that is.  

 

At some point between the moment when Harry screws up the gumption to ask Sally out to the movies and the point where a newborn´s psychological self-awareness finally dawns, we can say that a baby is an honest-to-goodness living human being.  For the most part, it´s a gradual process.  I agree with you that if there´s gonna be a medical intervention (morning after pill, abortion) then the earlier the better.  But where should we draw the line?  I don´t pretend to know.

 

To me, there´s a certain openness to this not-knowing that feels right.  Because I don´t know when life begins, I can have empathy for all and not try to control the decisions others make about their lives.

Edited March 22, 2019 by liminal_luke

[Teddy]

Wow. So many responses. I should probably give my view after all that!

 

It seems to me that abortion is a sign that there is something very wrong with society.

 

Clearly no one wants to have an abortion. No little girl thinks 'I really want an abortion when I'm older'. 

 

What baffles me is how advocating abortion is seen as feminist. I think in a world where femininity is important and respected, motherhood would be sacred and society would be such that people didn't feel the need for abortions.

 

I just want everyone to be happy and to get along, and I am honestly baffled and scared by the act of extreme violence that is so often abortion.

 

I have a friend who's baby would not have survived outside the womb. She had an abortion ...that seems like an understandable decision to me.

 

I have another friend who had an abortion because pregnancy would have interfered with her college studies. That seems like disconnected thinking to me.

 

My general philosophy is to follow what comes naturally. Love nature. Love.

 

I fully understand that these views may come across as naive, judgemental, idealistic, sexist etc. Well... I might be naive. I am just saying how things genuinely appear to me right now. To do otherwise would be disingenuous. I probably am idealistic. I love and respect women and have lots of strong women in my life.

 

I don't know why this subject is playing on my mind so much recently. If anyone could help soothe my troubled mind. Or just give me some insight into why I'm suddenly so bothered by a topic I didn't really think about before ...I'd be grateful.

 

I really can't stop thinking about this, and that very rarely happens to me. Unfortunately, it upsets me. And I have a feeling that my preoccupation is about something more than just the issue of abortion, but I can't put my finger on it.

 

Ps. Please: love each other. Love yourselves. Love nature. Love children. Love women. Love men. Love animals. Love the internet. Love the gift of your life. Do what makes you happy. Be awesome to one another.

[Aetherous]

4 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

When does life begin?  In posing this question you seem to assume that I know the answer -- or think I do -- and am just holding out to be difficult.  That´s not the case.  Obviously heterosexual sex kicks off the whole shebang and there are a number of signposts along the way that we might point to as start-of-life moments.  You picked an obvious albeit early one, the moment of conception.  Somebody else might say the moment when there´s a beating heart, or when the fetus can feel pain.  Birth, the moment when the fetus physically separates from the mother, seems a pretty clear demarcation point.  An argument could be made that newborns don´t experience themselves as separate from the mother even after birth,  and perhaps haven´t really come into their own as separate beings until this awareness kicks in.  There´s also the spiritual argument that the baby is alive as a separate being after it´s ensouled, whenever that is.  

 

At some point between the moment when Harry screws up the gumption to ask Sally out to the movies and the point where a newborn´s psychological self-awareness finally dawns, we can say that a baby is an honest-to-goodness living human being.  For the most part, it´s a gradual process.  I agree with you that if there´s gonna be a medical intervention (morning after pill, abortion) then the earlier the better.  But where should we draw the line?  I don´t pretend to know.

 

To me, there´s a certain openness to this not-knowing that feels right.  Because I don´t know when life begins, I can have empathy for all and not try to control the decisions others make about their lives.

 

I appreciate the answer; it's okay to admit that we don't know. I appreciate that you said the part which I bolded above, and that you agree, the earlier the better for abortion (like the morning after pill).

I'm going to challenge you to think about this further with me. A heartbeat is clearly a sign of a unique life. Extra heartbeats don't manifest randomly inside of people's bodies except in the case of being pregnant, and in pregnancy, that's a life which develops into a human being. Having a heartbeat clearly shows that it's a living being. The way to check if an adult is dead, when you see them lying still on the ground, is to check for a pulse...only in rare cases due to medical advances do people live without having a heartbeat...prior to those advances, when the heart stopped, life stopped.

 

The heartbeat of an embryo can be detected at week 6. That can end up being when a woman is 2 weeks late for her period, depending on where she's at in her cycle at conception...very early.

 

If we're truly believing that "the earlier the better" for "medical intervention" (aka, killing the unique life), then perhaps by looking at what life is scientifically, we could decide just how early it should be. Perhaps we could discover signs of life prior to the heartbeat, but having a heartbeat is an undeniable one. No one can speak of a being with a heartbeat and say that it's "not alive".

 

So, that's where we should draw the line. Week 6. If science discovered signs of "life" prior to that (and I think they have), perhaps it should be even earlier...but this sign is so clear that it's undeniable.

 

About having empathy for all...that's again not accurate, since you don't consider the fetus. You speak of the moment when the fetus physically separates as seeming like a "pretty clear demarcation point". That's way too late...prior to that, the fetus is able to think and feel, as well as survive independently of the mother. Why don't you have empathy for it, knowing that these things are true?

 

Regarding "awareness of being separate from the mother" as being a potential sign of life, that's not accurate. When you go to sleep at night, you're not aware of yourself...that doesn't mean you're no longer alive, no longer a human, or no longer worthy of living. First of all, we have no idea what it's like for fetuses or newborns from the first person perspective...we've forgotten what it was like for us (well, most of us have). We can only speculate about such things...and speculation is not a solid ground to stand on when it comes to deciding whether someone else lives or dies. Furthermore, let's say they don't yet understand that they're a unique being...this is just because they haven't learned how the world works yet...it doesn't imply that they lack a will to live, lack feelings and emotions which they experience, lack the experience of pain and suffering, lack the reception of insight, etc. It just means they haven't formed a certain notion with their conceptual mind yet...aside from not having that notion, perhaps they're fully capable in terms of being a "being" and having "consciousness". Again, when you sleep, you lack this notion as well.

 

Going back to the bolded words above, Luke...you claim that "the earlier the better" for abortion is your position. If that's the case, why haven't you been speaking out against late term abortions, abortions past the point of viability, and newborn killings? Why is it that every liberal here goes silent on those matters, and wants to talk about "women's healthcare" in general, if your position is truly that you think "the earlier the better"? Be honest.

Edited March 22, 2019 by Aetherous

[liminal_luke]

@Aetherous

 

When it comes to abortion, everybody thinks the earlier the better.  Don´t you think?  There´s not an abortion doctor in the country who thinks there should be more late-term abortions and less early-term ones.  Do you imagine that liberal pro-choice folks are rubbing their hands with sadistic glee at the thought of near-birth abortions?  I can assure you they are not.

 

It´s just that for one reason or another sometimes those lesser-of-two-evil early abortions don´t happen and the only choice is a late-term abortion or none at all.  In this circumstance, I´m not willing to tell a woman that she can´t have an abortion she wants to have.  Does this mean I think waiting was a good thing?  No, it does not. 

[Aetherous]

16 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

When it comes to abortion, everybody thinks the earlier the better.  Don´t you think?  There´s not an abortion doctor in the country who thinks there should be more late-term abortions and less early-term ones.  Do you imagine that liberal pro-choice folks are rubbing their hands with sadistic glee at the thought of near-birth abortions?  I can assure you they are not.

 

I can assure you, that's constantly happening; I've seen numerous liberals talking like that. Since it's the position their team chooses, they dissociate from the reality of what's happening with it, and go to ideological extremes.

 

Although it's not about the late term abortions, here's an example of the "sadistic glee":
 

 

Here's another example of sadistic glee: 
 

 

I am 100% certain that under the right social conditions, you would behave the same way, since it's apparent that it hasn't been your belief that a fetus is a human life.

[Aetherous]

42 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

It´s just that for one reason or another sometimes those lesser-of-two-evil early abortions don´t happen and the only choice is a late-term abortion or none at all.  In this circumstance, I´m not willing to tell a woman that she can´t have an abortion she wants to have.

 

Well, you don't have to be willing, and you can go sit on the fence. I'm certainly willing, and can put up with all kinds of nonsense about "men can't tell women what to do" etc, in order to defend the life that's at stake.

 

Also - your position here definitely negates your statement that "the early the better" when it comes to abortions. I think you were just trying to sound like a good person when you said that, in order to appease other people who might judge you...but in fact, you don't believe "the earlier the better".

Edited March 23, 2019 by Aetherous

[liminal_luke]

Aetherous...Aetherous...Aetherous...I get that they don´t seem funny to you, but the videos posted above are meant to be humorous.  The Michelle Wolf piece is obviously meant to get laughs.  She´s being a comedian.  Not, perhaps, a comedian to your taste but a comedian nevertheless.  The video of the abortion doctor is just a guy goofing off, blowing off steam.  He´s probably sick and tired of those self-righteous types picketing his workplace and is deliberately provoking them to have a little fun.  

 

Ya gotta take these things in context.  Or not I guess.  But if you don´t take them in context you´re more likely to misinterpret the message.

 

 

[Aetherous]

21 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

Aetherous...Aetherous...Aetherous...I get that they don´t seem funny to you, but the videos posted above are meant to be humorous.  The Michelle Wolf piece is obviously meant to get laughs.  She´s being a comedian.  Not, perhaps, a comedian to your taste but a comedian nevertheless.  The video of the abortion doctor is just a guy goofing off, blowing off steam.  He´s probably sick and tired of those self-righteous types picketing his workplace and is deliberately provoking them to have a little fun.  

 

Ya gotta take these things in context.  Or not I guess.  But if you don´t take them in context you´re more likely to misinterpret the message.

 

Abortion...is humorous to some people. Such as the comedian and the crowd laughing and clapping.

This same thing which thelerner said is "a hard subject, painful".

The tearing of limbs of the most innocent human being, which is then sold to companies for a profit...is a laughing matter to your kind.

[Pilgrim]

18 minutes ago, Aetherous said:

The tearing of limbs of the most innocent human being, which is then sold to companies for a profit...is a laughing matter to your kind.

I would like to ask you to reconsider this statement.  Your Kind is also you and me.

[Aetherous]

4 minutes ago, Pilgrim said:

I would like to ask you to reconsider this statement.  Your Kind is also you and me.

 

I'm not one of the people who is pro-abortion, and especially not one who laughs or jokes about it, or who attempts to keep expanding the definition of it even into childhood while touting oneself as an empathetic person...so I'm not one of their kind.

I wasn't saying Luke isn't a human being, which we all are.

[Pilgrim]

I know Luke from personal messages and he would never laugh over this. Luke has a good heart.

 

We are all working our our way through this so try to be a bit nicer.

 

I know abortion bothers you but nothing is solved by political lines ever.

 

I care for both of your feelings very much.

Edited March 23, 2019 by Pilgrim

[Pilgrim]

2 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

@Aetherous

 

When it comes to abortion, everybody thinks the earlier the better.  Don´t you think?  There´s not an abortion doctor in the country who thinks there should be more late-term abortions and less early-term ones.  Do you imagine that liberal pro-choice folks are rubbing their hands with sadistic glee at the thought of near-birth abortions?  I can assure you they are not.

 

It´s just that for one reason or another sometimes those lesser-of-two-evil early abortions don´t happen and the only choice is a late-term abortion or none at all.  In this circumstance, I´m not willing to tell a woman that she can´t have an abortion she wants to have.  Does this mean I think waiting was a good thing?  No, it does not. 

Luke.

 

I would like to see your parameters for acceptable abortion defined as I have. 

[ilumairen]

9 hours ago, thelerner said:

Sorry it came off that way. What I meant was don't take my word for it. If a person is interested in the real world consequences of illegal abortion they could look up deaths and prison sentences that resulted from it. 

 

It's a heated issue and I'm honestly sorry I came off rude. 

 

I really am boringly practical. Abortion isn't illegal, and won't be made illegal. I accept this. 

 

And when real world consequences are mentioned I'm reminded of the body racking sobs of a friend as she shared her experience. And another woman who shared that years later she would see children of a certain age and get sad thinking that her own child would have been that age if she hadn't given in to the pressure of her boyfriend to have an abortion that she told him she didn't want. 

 

I'm reminded of a man who offered to raise his child himself - if only she would have been willing to give birth. 

 

I hold the sorrowful.. And understand real world consequences in a way you may not have considered.

 

And we're good thelerner.. I understand it's an emotional topic. 

[Aetherous]

9 minutes ago, Pilgrim said:

We are all working our our way through this so try to be a bit nicer.

 

That was me trying my best. I hope you can come to accept me as I am, but if you can't, I hope we can at least focus on the topic moreso than derailing the thread with personal quibbles.

[Pilgrim]

32 minutes ago, Aetherous said:

 

That was me trying my best. I hope you can come to accept me as I am, but if you can't, I hope we can at least focus on the topic moreso than derailing the thread with personal quibbles.

I accepted you the way you are long ago, and mostly agree with you. Sometimes you go too far. Sometimes I do also. We are better than the topics at hand.

Edited March 23, 2019 by Pilgrim

[windwalker]

On 3/20/2019 at 11:35 AM, Teddy said:

What are the views of people here on abortion? I've recently been reading about babies that have survived abortion attempts and go on to live lives. I found it upsetting to read about this.

 

A personal choice that hopefully most will never have to make.

 

 

Edited March 23, 2019 by windwalker

[Aetherous]

8 hours ago, thelerner said:

right, if they murdered a 12 year old, its not a hard decision, I'd want them locked up.

 

So, that's an easy lock em up decision for you. Because it's murder, and you can't have someone murdering other people out there.

 

8 hours ago, thelerner said:

If they were pregnant, considered it, weighed there options carefully and decided to have an abortion, I'd be sorry, recognize it as sad, but wouldn't judge them or call them a murderer.  I wouldn't want them to go to prison for years because of it. I wouldn't think they were horrible, unethical woman.

 

That's how you view it...but consider for a second that perhaps approximately half of our US population views it differently, myself included. We view the fetus to be just as much of a human being as a 12 year old. We think it's just as bad, and perhaps even worse (due to the innocence involved) when the fetus is murdered...and we do consider it murder, since it's a premeditated taking of a human life. We know it's a human life, not only due to how it looks after a certain stage of development, but also because it has its own heartbeat at 6 weeks, which only living human beings have. We know it's a human life, because if nature is left to take its course and not interfered with violently, that fetus pops out as a baby and lives independently as a fully developed human.

You view abortion differently than this, because we've been in a culture that views it differently. Our Supreme Court arbitrarily defined that a human life is only a person at a pretty random stage of its development. We've gotten used to not thinking about this issue, and just go with the flow of society. Our team (I refer to your team, liberals) have certain slogans that have the effect of causing us to not think and question...such as insisting that it's all about "women" and "healthcare". Obviously if you speak against it, you're speaking against women...and then are shunned and scolded. How could you try to infringe on someone's right to "healthcare"?!

Just like how in a tribe that hunts people from other tribes and eats them in order to gain their power (cannibalism)...us Americans can look down upon that, because we know that such a thing is wrong and disturbed, and even causes disease for the one who wins and eats. But the person in the tribe grew up with that way of life, and thinks it's not wrong at all. They truly feel and believe differently than us Americans. They think nothing (ethically speaking) of that person dying, nor of the eating of the human flesh. They're not yet enlightened, just like our society is not yet enlightened (due to apathy and ignorance) on the subject of abortion.

Apathy and ignorance looks like: maintaining one's ideological position, despite evidence for a more scientific/rational/ethical position being presented. The points being presented aren't addressed by the apathetic, or if they are addressed, it's not done with full honesty.

To change one's mind would be too much of a shock for most people in this culture, which has been programmed to believe and feel the way that it does. Because then you'd become one of the bad guys, who the culture mocks/doesn't understand/fears. You'd be lumped into the same category as rednecks, racists, Christians, etc.

 

You'd become one of the rational ones.

...to be clear, I'm not calling you names like, "you're irrational". But I think I'm presenting a perspective which is quite decisive, and can cut through abortionist programming.

 

8 hours ago, thelerner said:

I take it, you'd consider them killers, treat them as such and want to see them locked up for years.

 

If abortion were made illegal, and someone did it, I think they'd be a criminal and should be prevented from continuing to do that...perhaps similar to someone who committed manslaughter or murder. I view each baby as a human with the right to life, which isn't yet able to speak up for itself and declare that it wants the be alive, and which can't ask others to stop the mother from killing it. Perhaps, being fully conscious, it wants to.

 

Also...in the case of my own daughter (don't have one yet) or friend murdering a 12 year old. I would think they should be locked up, but of course the original question is meant to pull at the heart strings, because it's someone close to us. Fathers want to protect their daughters, and will do almost anything (even some, to the point of obscuring their loved one's crimes). For me personally, I'm the same way with friends, and am incredibly forgiving of all kinds of faults, due to how much I care for them. It would honestly be very hard to "want" my friend or loved one to be locked up, despite what they did being horrendous and worthy of imprisonment.

Just as it'd be hard to "want" a loved one or friend who committed an abortion to be imprisoned for it, in the case of it being criminalized.

[Aetherous]

 

47 minutes ago, Pilgrim said:

Sometimes you go too far.

 

Thanks, I accept you as well.

It's my view that none of us go far enough when it comes to this topic.

I may end up taking a break, so as to let others have more breathing room so they can feel better speaking their minds...which perhaps would give you some relief. But for the time being, I've had incredibly important things to share here.