Abortion

[Armando]

1 minute ago, Spotless said:

 

The above was in reference to:

 

“Some speak of murder - but  a great many would say that no Being has been killed. Over half of the inhabitants on this planet would say that no Being has been killed - that a possible body for that Being was dis-allowed - but no murder took place”

 

 

How would this be different from killing a born child? Or an adult, for that matter?

 

Wouldn't it be logical to say that still no murder took place? That only a, well, actual body has been disallowed? Big deal... The soul just travelled on!

 

Where would you draw the line?

[Aetherous]

5 minutes ago, Spotless said:

The above was in reference to:

 

“Some speak of murder - but  a great many would say that no Being has been killed. Over half of the inhabitants on this planet would say that no Being has been killed - that a possible body for that Being was dis-allowed - but no murder took place”

 

Perhaps you Aetherous should examine your bubble instead of projecting it upon others. By far the majority of humans on this planet believe in reincarnation - and MANY studies show that a very very sizable percentage of Christians do as well.

 

Your positioning and insulting reference and lackadaisical  reference is why joining in this conversation was done with great trepidation. Buffoons unable to respect intellectual discourse because of extreme rigidized anchoring in core beliefs.

 

Even a Buffoon can look up such statistics - and even a Buffoon can politely question what one was referencing - but most buffoons do what buffoons do - the play their buffoons.

 

Hey buddy, I engaged you intellectually without insulting you, and you didn't come back with anything intellectual in response, but just tried to call me a buffoon multiple times. Nice argument.

[ilumairen]

5 minutes ago, Spotless said:

 

The above was in reference to:

 

“Some speak of murder - but  a great many would say that no Being has been killed. Over half of the inhabitants on this planet would say that no Being has been killed - that a possible body for that Being was dis-allowed - but no murder took place”

 

Perhaps you Aetherous should examine your bubble instead of projecting it upon others. By far the majority of humans on this planet believe in reincarnation - and MANY studies show that a very very sizable percentage of Christians do as well.

 

Your positioning and insulting reference and lackadaisical  reference is why joining in this conversation was done with great trepidation. Buffoons unable to respect intellectual discourse because of extreme rigidized anchoring in core beliefs.

 

Even a Buffoon can look up such statistics - and even a Buffoon can politely question what one was referencing - but most buffoons do what buffoons do - the play their buffoons.

 

Perhaps he didn't understand what you meant with the capital B of being?

 

And perhaps you just meant buffoon? 

 

"Today's letter is B. What starts with the letter B?" B.. IRTH.. BIRTH  B.. EING BEING. B.. UFFOON BUFFOON

 

 

[Aetherous]

24 minutes ago, Spotless said:

buffoons do what buffoons do - the play their buffoons.

 

13 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

And perhaps you just meant buffoon? 

 

Maybe he meant bassoons?

 

 

[thelerner]

We all know we're talking about abortion for poor people, right?  That if you have enough money, you'll have a choice.  If you're poor you don't or risk your life with an illegal back alley abortion.  We're clear that those are the real choices we're debating here?

 

Speaking of the debate, at its logical extreme, if we consider a fetus to have the full rights of a citizen then abortion would be premeditated murder.  In many states the woman, the doctor, the nurse would be killed under the death penalty.  Anyone who helped her or knew about it would get a lengthy sentence.  If the father knew, he could be killed or go to prison for decades.   In states without the death penalty people would just go to prison for decades.

 

To fully ensure the safety and survival of all citizens when a woman find out she was pregnant she would have to celebrate then registrate, ie notify the government or her gynecologist would have to.  If anything happened, a miscarriage, she'd need to produce a body, no matter how small and an investigation and autopsy would have to be performed.  With no body, she could be liable for the death penalty, because there was a murder and she's the number one suspect, along with her family and friends. 

 

Needless to say the pill would be not only be illegal but treated as poison, in certain circumstances it can keep an embryo from attaching.  Anyone found using it would be arrested with some kind of murder charge.  Same with the day after pill.  Again this is mostly against the poor, the rich will find ways around it.  The poor and middle class woman will live or die in back alley abortions.

 

 

Abortion is a hard subject, painful.  I fully respect those who wouldn't have one, but I'm don't think the right should be taken away from all.  In truth I don't think it can be.  It's the womans body, if they want to abort they will find a way. 

 

The good news is the abortion rate has been going down steadily for years.  It'd be wise to know what factors contribute to that and build on them.  To make sure woman know they have a choice and that there babies, wanted or unwanted can find a good home. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Spotless]

10 minutes ago, Armando said:

 

How would this be different from killing a born child? Or an adult, for that matter?

 

Wouldn't it be logical to say that still no murder took place? That only a, well, actual body has been disallowed? Big deal... The soul just travelled on!

 

Where would you draw the line?

Please reread what you quoted and move beyond the assumptions in your question.

 

The notion was put forth regarding the “killing of a Being” - the idea that a Soul cannot be killed - that it exists independent of a body. Nothing more was projected into this but it is certainly different than some previous posting that imply that an abortion is the end of everything for that which might have been born - that it has somehow met with oblivion. This is not a belief held by more than half the world.

 

The death of a full adult is not oblivion for the soul. It is not murder of the soul - even Christians believe that in most cases.

 

 

[ilumairen]

1 minute ago, thelerner said:

We all know we're talking about abortion for poor people, right?  That if you have enough money, you'll have a choice.  If you're poor you don't or risk your life with an illegal back alley abortion.  We're clear that those are the real choices we're debating here?

 

Well I didn't know that.. 

 

[thelerner]

4 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

 

Well I didn't know that.. 

 

well, thats imo, the reality, unless the discussion was just at a philosophical level.  Which is fine.  But every now and then it might be good to let real world considerations in. 

 

Others can chime in to see if that consideration is accurate.  I wouldn't even call the death penalty and long prison sentences for woman and there friends and family who helped them to be an unintended consequence.  I assume its fully known and realized. 

Edited March 22, 2019 by thelerner

[liminal_luke]

At what point in development does a potential human cross over and become an actual human being?  People can give various answers to this question based on belief or religious conviction but very few of us, if any, know.  Aetherous has said that he believes life begins at conception.  Nevertheless, he´s willing to consider the morning after pill in cases where a pregnancy has resulted from rape.  Some Christians go further and prohibit birth control, prohibit masturbation on the grounds that it represents the spilling of sacred seed.  Others allow abortion up to a certain point in the pregnancy process.  Still others allow abortion right up until almost the moment of birth itself.

 

Who is right?  Perhaps there´s an enlightened sage somewhere who could give an enlightened answer but such sages are scarce in the halls of congress.  Since our lawmakers are unqualified to answer this question with any great confidence, they have no business making laws about it.  This matter is thus best left to the person most directly effected, the pregnant woman.

Edited March 22, 2019 by liminal_luke

[ilumairen]

Just now, thelerner said:

well, thats imo, the reality, unless the discussion was just at a philosophical level.  Which is fine.  But every now and then it might be good to let real world considerations in. 

 

Others can chime in to see if that consideration is accurate.  

 

What wonderful pretentiousness. Soo eloquently set forth.. a beautiful dance. 

 

And it isn't the only pretentiousness set forth here.. : looking at spotless:

 

I would have thought the sharing of the story of my co-worker would have fallen under "real world considerations".. silly little me. 

[thelerner]

4 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

 

What wonderful pretentiousness. Soo eloquently set forth.. a beautiful dance. 

 

And it isn't the only pretentiousness set forth here.. : looking at spotless:

 

I would have thought the sharing of the story of my co-worker would have fallen under "real world considerations".. silly little me. 

No pretentiousness, reality.  Dead bodies, lots of blood running out. 

Your story is very sad (actually it had a happy ending which is good) but it shouldn't close your eyes to others stories and tragedies.

Edited March 22, 2019 by thelerner

[ilumairen]

Just now, thelerner said:

No pretentiousness, reality.  Dead bodies, lots of blood running out. 

Your story is very sad but it shouldn't close your eyes to others stories and tragedies.

 

And more pretentiousness..

 

The story here was only sad in so much as my friend's greatest gift in life (her son) arose from a moment of great suffering (her rape).

 

And I've experienced dead bodies and lots of blood running out, and have posted about my second trimester miscarriage on this site before. 

 

Please take your condescension and arrogant stance somewhere else.

[Spotless]

One of the reasons for declining rates in abortion is longer duration birth control methods:

 

Depo-Provera - long lasting epidermal implant

https://www.plannedparenthood.org/learn/birth-control/birth-control-shot

 

Nuva Ring

Interuterine device that lasts around a year.

 

And also:

 

Online access and fulfillment via mail. When it is delivered to your doorstep automatically it’s harder to forget and have an unwanted pregnancy.

 

Also:

 

A general decline in fertility rates.

Edited March 22, 2019 by Spotless

[thelerner]

13 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

 

And more pretentiousness..

 

The story here was only sad in so much as my friend's greatest gift in life (her son) arose from a moment of great suffering (her rape).

 

And I've experienced dead bodies and lots of blood running out, and have posted about my second trimester miscarriage on this site before. 

 

Please take your condescension and arrogant stance somewhere else.

There's no condescension meant here.  Woman dying due to back alley abortions isn't pretentious.  This isn't a debate tactic.  This is reality.   Woman young and old die when abortion is made illegal.  If you think that's wrong or arrogant, do some research. 

[ilumairen]

Just now, thelerner said:

There's no condescension meant here.  Woman dying due to back alley abortions isn't pretentious.  This isn't a debate tactic.  This is reality.   Woman young and old die when abortion is made illegal.  If you think that's wrong or arrogant, do some research. 

 

"Do some research".. 

 

Yes, no pretentiousness at all... 

 

It's not the ideas behind what you present thelerner; it's the presentation.

 

And honestly, this is the catalyst pushing me from the left. Respect another's decisions - unless that person disagrees with your ideology and then push for them to step into alignment. Failing any alignment with personally (group) held views - subtly insult. If subtlety doesn't work go for outright insult. 

 

Either have an actual conversation with me, or go complain at the wind. 

[Aetherous]

2 minutes ago, thelerner said:

We all know we're talking about abortion for poor people, right?  That if you have enough money, you'll have a choice.  If you're poor you don't or risk your life with an illegal back alley abortion.  We're clear that those are the real choices we're debating here?

 

I mean, that might be on topic for the thread's title...but I think this thread isn't about certain people having access to abortion and others not having access.

 

2 minutes ago, thelerner said:

Speaking of the debate, at its logical extreme, if we consider a fetus to have the full rights of a citizen then abortion would be premeditated murder.

 

It's not an "extreme", although I understand it seems that way to people who assume abortion is the norm/moderate position.

There are many countries where abortion is fully illegal because a fetus is considered a human life. Even in our country, we have legally considered the fetus to have personhood at viability (arbitrarily).

Think about a mother who actually wants her child, and let's say she's at 9 weeks. Her and her husband have been trying for years to get pregnant, and now it has finally happened thanks to costly fertility treatments. Then someone who is jealous comes and beats her so as to end the pregnancy, and the embryo dies.

Does this mother not consider it to be a premeditated murder of her baby, who she was already starting to care for?

Is the law not there to serve individuals, like this mother who has been wronged? Why, in the US, should this case merely be considered "battery"? A human life that had its own heartbeat was snuffed out in this example.

 

2 minutes ago, thelerner said:

In many states the woman, the doctor, the nurse would be killed under the death penalty.  Anyone who helped her or knew about it would get a lengthy sentence.  If the father knew, he could be killed or go to prison for decades.   In states without the death penalty people would just go to prison for decades.

 

If it was criminal, there would be criminal consequences to committing the crime, just like any other crime.

I don't think, if the law changed, that people would be convicted retroactively.

 

I'm personally not in favor of the death penalty, since I think outside of a war or self defense scenario, it's no one's right to end another's life...and I think it harms the people whose job it is to perform the execution. My view of justice is that it's not merely a punishment, but also a protection for others in society...so let's say a serial killer, they should get life imprisonment in order to protect the public primarily, and not for the purpose of vengeance against them.

 

2 minutes ago, thelerner said:

To fully ensure the safety and survival of all citizens when a woman find out she was pregnant she would have to celebrate then registrate, ie notify the government or her gynecologist would have to.  If anything happened, a miscarriage, she'd need to produce a body, no matter how small and an investigation and autopsy would have to be performed.  With no body, she could be liable for the death penalty, because there was a murder and she's the number one suspect, along with her family and friends. 

 

Could be...although we all understand that miscarriages happen, and I think if things were this strict it'd be more than a little insane.

 

2 minutes ago, thelerner said:

Needless to say the pill would be not only be illegal but treated as poison, in certain circumstances it can keep an embryo from attaching.

 

I like your post, because I think things like this make a good point.

As a healthcare practitioner, I do think the pill and intrauterine devices are often harmful to the woman (I've treated them in clinic where we find out the side effects). Messing with hormones so as to become infertile, I do think could be considered "poison". But this is not to say that I'm opposed to birth control.

 

The birth control issue is really a Catholic thing only.

If it were to be legally decided that an embryo at conception is a human life, then yes this would be something to address.

 

2 minutes ago, thelerner said:

Anyone found using it would be arrested with some kind of murder charge.  Same with the day after pill.  Again this is mostly against the poor, the rich will find ways around it.  The poor and middle class woman will live or die in back alley abortions.

 

The day after pill is even trickier since it's not "birth control" but is really a very early abortion.

I tend to view pregnancy as a scale, where at conception a human life begins, and at birth the human life comes out...and along that scale it's more and more severe ethically for an abortion to take place. While it might be murder to take a day after pill, at least for me, that's much less worse than a late term abortion. In cases like being raped, where the woman didn't have the option to use birth control or even abstinence, I could personally be understanding up to a certain point...because the human life is so undeveloped that, let's say prior to 6 weeks, it doesn't even have a heartbeat yet. So something taken the day after is the least harmful option.

Truly...it's a difficult issue.

 

2 minutes ago, thelerner said:

Abortion is a hard subject, painful.  I fully respect those who wouldn't have one, but I'm don't think the right should be taken away from all.  In truth I don't think it can be.  It's the womans body, if they want to abort they will find a way. 

 

Why do you repeat that it's the woman's body? The fetus isn't her body. This is a basic and obvious scientific fact. For a husband whose wife got pregnant, when he wants a child, he also doesn't think of his future baby as "her body", and would be pretty distraught if she decided to kill their baby because she thought it was her body only.

 

Regarding fully respecting certain people...I've had numerous friends who got abortions. They felt like they could confide that in me, at times when they had kept it a secret. I respect them, and am understanding that our culture is confused and brainwashed on this issue...and I didn't chastise them with even a single word for having done it (which I logically think is murder). Just something that might not be obvious in an internet discussion forum.

 

2 minutes ago, thelerner said:

The good news is the abortion rate has been going down steadily for years.  It'd be wise to know what factors contribute to that and build on them.  To make sure woman know they have a choice and that there babies, wanted or unwanted can find a good home. 

 

The kind of choice I like is whether to adopt or not. One of my friends ended up doing that after her first abortion, which was very hard for her, and while she missed her baby she did have a much better time with that choice.

[Aetherous]

37 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

At what point in development does a potential human cross over and become an actual human being?  People can give various answers to this question based on belief or religious conviction but very few of us, if any, know.  Aetherous has said that he believes life begins at conception.  Nevertheless, he´s willing to consider the morning after pill in cases where a pregnancy has resulted from rape.  Some Christians go further and prohibit birth control, prohibit masturbation on the grounds that it represents the spilling of sacred seed.  Others allow abortion up to a certain point in the pregnancy process.  Still others, allow abortion right up until almost the moment of birth itself.

 

Whose right?  Perhaps there´s an enlightened sage somewhere who could give an enlightened answer but such sages are scarce in the halls of congress.  Since our lawmakers are unqualified to answer this question with any great confidence, they have no business making laws about it.  This matter is thus best left to the person most directly effected, the pregnant woman.

 

She isn't an enlightened sage, so I can't agree that it's best left up to the individual...especially when approximately half of individuals have been successfully brainwashed to think they have the choice to kill their babies, that it's okay, etc...when their "friends" inside of their ideological bubble actually encourage it.

We do need the truly enlightened sages guiding our society. Society needs to listen.

 

I wish you'd honestly address the issue...when does life begin? It's not a hard question. What is a sign of being alive, scientifically speaking? When do some mothers (the ones who want their babies) consider their baby to be a baby? If you have an opinion on the subject, which you do, it should come from a factual basis...do you know why you have the ideas that you do?

[Aetherous]

21 minutes ago, thelerner said:

Woman young and old die when abortion is made illegal.

 

I sympathize with (the idea of) the woman in poverty who truly can't afford to raise a child, and would simply be bringing a life into this world only to starve it despite her best wishes otherwise. But perhaps there's a way for the child, once born, to be taken care of by others.
 

Or a woman who truly can't live with the idea and reality of bringing a rapist's offspring into the world.

Some things don't have solutions, or at least not easy ones. Is the solution to this dilemma you present that we permit the mass murder of the innocent? Is that truly a better result?

[thelerner]

15 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

 

"Do some research".. 

 

Yes, no pretentiousness at all... 

 

It's not the ideas behind what you present thelerner; it's the presentation.

Sorry it came off that way. What I meant was don't take my word for it. If a person is interested in the real world consequences of illegal abortion they could look up deaths and prison sentences that resulted from it. 

 

It's a heated issue and I'm honestly sorry I came off rude. 

[thelerner]

4 minutes ago, Aetherous said:

 

I sympathize with (the idea of) the woman in poverty who truly can't afford to raise a child, and would simply be bringing a life into this world only to starve it despite her best wishes otherwise. But perhaps there's a way for the child, once born, to be taken care of by others.
 

Or a woman who truly can't live with the idea and reality of bringing a rapist's offspring into the world.

Some things don't have solutions, or at least not easy ones. Is the solution to this dilemma you present that we permit the mass murder of the innocent? Is that truly a better result?

Likewise, if a daughter or friend had an abortion, would one be okay with them being locked up for years?  

Hard questions. 

[Aetherous]

2 minutes ago, thelerner said:

Likewise, if a daughter or friend had an abortion, would one be okay with them being locked up for years?  

Hard questions. 

 

Think of it like this: if a daughter or friend murdered a 12 year old, would you be okay with them being locked up for years? That's not such a hard question.

[Pilgrim]

8 minutes ago, Spotless said:

Perhaps you Aetherous should examine your bubble instead of projecting it upon others. By far the majority of humans on this planet believe in reincarnation - and MANY studies show that a very very sizable percentage of Christians do as well.

 

Perhaps you should realize your bubble and stop projecting it as well?  If you did not want to participate in the conversation you would not have posted. Your reply to Aetheros revealed to me how much Aetheros really was correct. Aetheros I apologize as it turns out you were right. So here I am entering the conversation after all. 

 

The pain and suffering abortion causes the infant has nothing to do with belief systems. The pain and suffering are real just as real as you being here on earth breathing right now is,  as real as your feelings for what Aetheros wrote which you felt the need to react to and these words as well. It is all relative to where one finds ones self. Pray you do not find yourself in a womb having after reincarnated to discover the pain of being aborted.

 

You can neither prove nor disprove reincarnation. In fact I challenge you to do so right here and right now. Until it can be proven then it is nothing more than a projection of your belief system.

 

Granted I do believe in reincarnation but am staunchly opposed to fetus and infant murder and abortions where suffering will take place with the infant for any reason of convenience or inconvenience. I also believe in abortions but only when they are under the following conditions which to me are fair and reasonable.

 

1. If it is by choice of the mother to abort her pregnancy that is fine with me no matter what her reason it is,  her body,  her life her choice, during the early part of the first trimester after that then it is no longer just her body, or just her life nor just her choice. After this period of time grave pain and suffering can be experienced by the infant. The procedures to remove a fetus from the womb are brutal by anyone's definition. There is no proof that during the early part of the first trimester the fetus can experience pain. To me in this case let the soul depart and take birth in a receptive womb, probably better off anyway.

 

2. If there is clear and present danger to the mothers health then the Mother has precedence in the relationship and abortion should be performed. 

 

3. If there is clear and present evidence the child will not live outside the womb on it's own (excepting premature births which life support can assist for a short period of time) then abortion should be performed.

 

4. If the Mother is a victim of rape I can see where the horror of carrying the perpetrators child may indeed warrant abortion after the first trimester. This after all can be equally damaging to the mother mentally and emotionally even as a physical health risk and should be permitted after adequate counseling has been received. After all their are also Mental and Emotional damages one has to deal with from aborting an infants life.

 

#4. Is as far as I can go with permitting abortions after the first trimester the rest of the reasons I have heard people make are not justifiable. 

 

I do not count a child being born with Down Syndrome,  Autism or Deformities or to parents who can not afford them to be justifiable reasons for abortion.

 

Once a child is in the birth canal exiting the mother to extinguish it's life is unjustifiable homicide, Once a child is outside of the mother to extinguish it's life is unjustifiable homicide.

 

Adoption and Governmental intervention needs to be the alternative to Abortion.

 

In the case of those with severe deformities and other conditions which will make them perhaps too difficult for the parent or parents to raise or impossible to care for then this is a case where the States and Federal Government should step in and help by providing a life for these people so they can live. 

 

I would not mind seeing my tax money going to projects like this and would consider it a worthy cause. 

 

As it stands now politics are shaping peoples opinion and that is disgusting. Being a leftest or a conservative or any other sickening politically deranged identification should be beneath a persons dignity and conscience when voting for life and death. If not then people should really not vote if all they are doing is voting their corrupt polarized party. Problem is the most polarized can't even see they are. Any and all Political party affiliation when it has taken up a residence in a persons identity are not only corrupt as the politicians they back but have corrupted the individuals judgment and perceptions making them pawns.

 

Then there is also the abortion industry and the money it receives for performing abortions,  this I do not approve of as it is way out of hand with far too much freedom to essentially commit unjustified murder. Murder of gestating humans in the womb must have a justifiable legitimate reason not just convenience or inconvenience whatever the case may be.  

 

The parameters I outlined above are in my opinion fair and balanced. What parameters would others choose as valid reasons for abortion and why? 

 

 

 

 

[Pilgrim]

11 hours ago, Spotless said:

I am going to put forth the following as simply a concept and not an opinion of mine or belief of mine or not:

 

Some would argue that the soul of a person is indestructible and that a few weeks or months of being attached to a life cycle and then having it unattached in no way kills the soul or necessarily affects it in a negative way.

 

Some would say that participating in such a scenario would be pre-planned to begin with - in the sense that the spirit chooses the parents and is fully engaged in the general prospects and would certainly be aware of such a possible immediate scenario such as a termination.

 

Some would say that a soul is barely even involved with the general interweaving in the human experience during the first several months. And in fact changes can be made regarding the soul to that body for seven years fairly easily.

 

Some would say that this is indeed the woman’s choice to bare.

 

Some speak of murder - but  great many would say that no Being has been killed. Over half of the inhabitants on this planet would say that no Being has been killed - that a possible body for that Being was dis-allowed - butno murder took place because ownership had not transferred from the mother and her body to a birthed child that is separate and autonomous in breath and body.

 

I have no opinion in this but thought these ideas might also be pondered.

I have no intention of defending these ideas so no need to act as if I am in any way invested in this subject. 

This is also correct. Thank you.

[Pilgrim]

1 hour ago, liminal_luke said:

At what point in development does a potential human cross over and become an actual human being?

I would say at the moment the Egg germinates.

 

I would also say that the Mothers life is the most important. For me the point is not when the soul enters the body, nor when the cells develop enough to becomes the Animal called a Human Being.

 

To me the point of when Abortion becomes an issue is when the gestating human can experience pain and suffering and perhaps yes even great fear, terror and agony.

 

To my knowledge the pain and suffering of abortion for the fetus becomes a reality in the late first trimester and second and beyond.

 

If there is no pain and no suffering because the body has not developed sufficiently to experience such things then it is simply a matter of the soul departing which we who have been outside the womb for some time now are going to do anyway.

 

I think all can agree pain and suffering of dismemberment in the womb are only acceptable under very trying and justified circumstances as I have done my best to express in a previous post.

 

 

Edited March 22, 2019 by Pilgrim

[Spotless]

The pain and suffering issue is not so simple as it might seem. And even the popular videos of those opposing abortion are not as clear cut as the reactions and conclusions to and from them often are

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2016/05/05/us/utah-abortion-law-fetal-anesthesia.amp.html