Strengthening the Blood

[Rocky Lionmouth]

16 hours ago, Song of the Dao said:

 

Fascinating. X can be good, but just not too much X.

 

Seem to be the general rule with enough exceptions to confirm it right?

[marcobjj]

On 4/14/2019 at 3:15 PM, freeform said:

Chlorella and spirulina are both excellent. They nourish both kidney Yin and blood (ideal for cultivators)... along with other very useful properties.

 

 

 

sorry if what I'm going to ask is off topic, but is there a substantial difference between blood and Kidney Yin ? the basis of all yin formulas is Shu Di Huang a blood tonic. So I'm guessing a kidney yin formula such as Liu Wei di Huang wan or Zuo Gui Wan would also serve as a blood tonic, or am I wrong about this?

[freeform]

2 hours ago, marcobjj said:

is there a substantial difference between blood and Kidney Yin ?

 

I’m not really sure to be honest. I'm really not that well versed in medicine.

[Aetherous]

On 4/29/2019 at 1:03 AM, marcobjj said:

sorry if what I'm going to ask is off topic, but is there a substantial difference between blood and Kidney Yin ? the basis of all yin formulas is Shu Di Huang a blood tonic. So I'm guessing a kidney yin formula such as Liu Wei di Huang wan or Zuo Gui Wan would also serve as a blood tonic, or am I wrong about this?

The TCM answer is that shudihuang nourishes both blood and yin, as two separate actions.

 

Some say that "kidney yin" is basically just the blood of the kidney (similar with almost any other organ's "yin")...so from that perspective, some yin tonics are really just blood tonics which are specific to different organs. Other yin tonics, however, nourish the jinye (body fluids).

Others would disagree, and differentiate between blood and yin.

 

Another perspective: think of the generation cycle of the five elements. Water generates wood. If liver blood is deficient, you could nourish the kidney, its mother. It can be that simple.

 

One of the ways which Chinese Medicine thinks blood is created (besides through digestion) is through the marrow, which corresponds to the kidney...so nourishing kidney yin will generate blood that way, by increasing marrow. As a good rule of thumb, they say that when you nourish yin, you should also tonify yang at the same time, and vice versa. Liu wei dihuang wan was made for pediatrics, who already have a lot of yang, by taking the yang tonifying ingredients out of shen qi wan. For adults, it might not be the best choice (and for adults who have problems with the yang tonics, they probably need a different formula first, to clear their internal heat). Creation happens through the intermingling of yin and yang...if you just have a pile of yin, how could blood come from that? Generation is an activity, and yin is inert while yang is active, so the kidney yin needs some kidney yang for this to work.

Something I find interesting is how Chen Xiuyuan was pretty strongly opposed to the overuse of shudihuang, because he thought it was too cloying - it causes pathogenic qi to get stuck internally, and causes all of the herbs and foods to not function properly as a result. He says to use it only to safeguard the fetus from miscarriage, with si wu tang for pregnant women. He even thought that cooking shengdihuang was a bad idea, which would make it stagnant and not cooling, taking away its intended effect. So, notice that shen qi wan is a pill, which is not cooked. In its true form it works properly, and can nourish blood.

Also, an older text (Tang ye jing) might have suggested using shudihuang as opposed to shengdihuang for increasing semen, associated in that case with the essence. It's like using a very cloying substance to create a similar sticky substance in the body. But if I remember correctly, that was just for in the case of nocturnal or premature emissions, and would be stopped once those are fixed (there can be other causes for those, so no one reading this should think shudihuang is the solution, it's just a solution if you have a particular diagnosis).

edit: Wanted to add more about dihuang. Most herbal suppliers give a shengdihuang that's black in color. This is entirely due to the processing, where it's heated to dry it. That destroys the effect it's supposed to have, similar to what Chen Xiuyuan said about cooking it. Spring Wind supplies shengdihuang that's dried in a better way, to preserve the yellow color. "Di huang" means "earth yellow" - it's that way for a reason. When you dig it up out of the ground, you can see that it's super yellow. If you make a maceration tincture with the fresh root, it will be a very bright yellow colored tincture. If you're buying various brands of teapills that contain rehmannia/dihuang, first of all they're probably using shudihuang because TCM teaches that it's better for nourishing blood...secondly, if they're using shengdihuang, it's probably the black crap. If you have a practitioner who makes their own pills, and let's say you're wanting some genuine shen qi wan, you should ask them to use Spring Wind's shengdihuang when making the pills.

Edited May 1, 2019 by Aetherous

[marcobjj]

There are situations where adults may replenish yin without any complementing hot herbs. Like for example in China it's common for women in their period to take a donkey hide (e jiao)  formulation  to make up for the blood loss. 

 

In my case, I had eczema from the time I was 8 years old, until my 20s. Due to the small but persistent blood loss, after a couple of years I began to suffer from what is today called "ADHD" . I personally find that a combination of 1 part of Shen QI Wan and 2 parts of Zuo Gui Wan works best for me.

 

Also, as soon as I moved to Southern California the eczema disappeared and never returned.That to me proves the TCM theory of damp-stagnation. How can you go from a place of 100% humidity to a place of 10% humidity and your skin becomes moister and more nourished? The absence of dampness in the spleen allows yin to ascend and go the the exterior. There's an MMA fighter named Bas Rutten that claims the same thing, had eczema and asthma as a kid in the Netherlands, gone as soon as he landed in socal.

 

Thanks for the tip on the processing of Rehmannia, I've ordered from several brands in the past including Dragon Herbs, they always look dark. I'll make sure to check out Spring Wind.

Edited May 2, 2019 by marcobjj

[Song of the Dao]

5 hours ago, marcobjj said:

In my case, I had eczema from the time I was 8 years old, until my 20s. Due to the small but persistent blood loss, after a couple of years I began to suffer from what is today called "ADHD" . I personally find that a combination of 1 part of Shen QI Wan and 2 parts of Zuo Gui Wan works best for me.

 

Also, as soon as I moved to Southern California the eczema disappeared and never returned.That to me proves the TCM theory of damp-stagnation. How can you go from a place of 100% humidity to a place of 10% humidity and your skin becomes moister and more nourished? The absence of dampness in the spleen allows yin to ascend and go the the exterior. There's an MMA fighter named Bas Rutten that claims the same thing, had eczema and asthma as a kid in the Netherlands, gone as soon as he landed in socal.

 

Eczema is caused by different infections, but usually a fungal imbalance, so of course a dryer climate will reduce eczema since it will change the microbiome of the skin.

https://journals.co.za/docserver/fulltext/caci_v31_n3_a7.pdf?expires=1556801916&id=id&accname=guest&checksum=3F3D2AA458F955405FC7919C9A8D435B

Quote

People with atopic eczema are more susceptible to bacterial, viral and fungal infections, some of which play a role in triggering and maintaining the chronic inflammation.

 

Damp-stagnation is just an old way of putting it, but I think now we have better ways to explain what is happening. TCM is ahead of its' time in these observations though.

 

The internal issue is still there however, hence the ADHD. I often find people who have ADHD also struggle with Eczema, and the link to both is too much serotonin and not enough dopamine, norepinepherine, and epinephrine. There is a way to balance this but I'll only explain if you ask.

 

I am guessing you have possibly red hair or freckles, or come from Irish/English decent.

 

(I have some what of the same problem, however, I do not lack in dopamine and the epinephrines but still have high serotonin most times. So no ADHD but Bipolar Disorder.)

 

Edited May 2, 2019 by Song of the Dao

[marcobjj]

On 5/2/2019 at 5:56 AM, Song of the Dao said:

 

Eczema is caused by different infections, but usually a fungal imbalance, so of course a dryer climate will reduce eczema since it will change the microbiome of the skin.

 

 

 

 

It's the lack of moisture (yin and jing deficiency) that allow fungus and other toxins to penetrate beneath the epidermis and cause the imbalance and subsequent immune response. Even in a drier climate, the eczema returns if I get too depleted (I've tested this).

 

Quote

The internal issue is still there however, hence the ADHD. I often find people who have ADHD also struggle with Eczema, and the link to both is too much serotonin and not enough dopamine, norepinepherine, and epinephrine. There is a way to balance this but I'll only explain if you ask."

I've taken both SSRI and MAOI years ago. MAOI made me jittery and SSRI made me gain weight and get into a lot of bar fights.

No visible benefits from either drug.  I quit taking Paxil because I was afraid it was going to get me killed.

 

 

I honestly don't like the western approach of breaking things down to the single molecule level. Not only are their effects on the body not well understood, but often times they can become hard to manage (for example people taking thyroid hormone replace sometimes find out that their adrenal glands have become depleted). With neurotransmitters its hard if not impossible to detect what their actual levels are on the brain, and more so to figure out what their proper balance is. If I ever need a hip replacement , liver transplant , something drastic live that I'll def go Western, but for endocrine disorders, digestive and immunological problems I like the TCM approach. Just supplement your body with the materials it needs (Jing/Yin/Yang/Shen/QI/Blood etc tonics) and let it figure out homeostasis on it's own.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 7, 2019 by marcobjj

[Song of the Dao]

5 hours ago, marcobjj said:

It's the lack of moisture (yin and jing deficiency) that allow fungus and other toxins to penetrate beneath the epidermis and cause the imbalance and subsequent immune response. Even in a drier climate, the eczema returns if I get too depleted (I've tested this).

 

I did not say it is the only change that affected the skin microbiome. You could have genetic changes that mess up your filaggrin or just an overly sensitive immune system.

 

And it is yin deficiency or too much yang? And how do you know? How long have you been studying TCM?

 

5 hours ago, marcobjj said:

I've taken both SSRI and MAOI years ago. MAOI made me jittery and SSRI made me gain weight and get into a lot of bar fights.

No visible benefits from either drug.  I quit taking Paxil because I was afraid it was going to get me killed.

 

I honestly don't like the western approach of breaking things down to the single molecule level. Not only are their effects on the body not well understood, but often times they can become hard to manage (for example people taking thyroid hormone replace sometimes find out that their adrenal glands have become depleted). With neurotransmitters its hard if not impossible to detect what their actual levels are on the brain, and more so to figure out what their proper balance is. If I ever need a hip replacement , liver transplant , something drastic live that I'll def go Western, but for endocrine disorders, digestive and immunological problems I like the TCM approach. Just supplement your body with the materials it needs (Jing/Yin/Yang/Shen/QI/Blood etc tonics) and let it figure out homeostasis on it's own.

 

Science does not care if you like it, neither does the Dao. Like I said, you have too much serotonin, hence your reactions to the SSRI and MAOI. You do not need to see the brain to understand neurotransmitters, you just need to look at behavior and illness. Like when someone trips on acid or ayuasca.

Think of the neurotransmitters on a yin/yang level and it will make sense:

Yang = Glutamate and too many catecholamines (serotonin, dopamine norepinepherine, epinepherine)

Yin = GABA and too few catecholamines.

Internal and external happen at the cellular level as well, like how voltage gated ion channels change concentrations of calcium, sodium and potassium.

All these cycle throughout the day, and year.

Don't you think all the TCM stuff effects the things I listed about? TCM can merge with the western approach and maybe both will benefit. Why choose one over the other? I have used this understanding to relieve myself from all the psychiatric meds.

Check out the benzo properties of Dan Shen, or the MAOI activity of Turmeric.

 

[silent thunder]

The West it seems excels at diagnosis of symptoms and treatments of symptoms.

The five major life threatening issues my wife and I have collectively experienced, of the five, western doctors had no clue what causes any of them.  Of the three doctors on my case for the last hiccup I experienced, two of them 180 degree contradicted the surgeon over the best approach to prevention of a relapse.  180 degree contradiction.

 

In the one life threatening issue faced by one of our feline companions... the vets have no idea what causes it.

Far less is known than is unknown it seems from my experience.  They put up a good front.  They can describe symptoms and using their molecular approach relieve symptoms, but description is not understanding... and how often does the relief of symptom through the use of specific molecules, bring about another pallete of further symptoms that must then be chased down with yet more pharaceutical molecules?

 

Western medicine is great at treating symptoms and caring for trauma and physical damage, ie carpentry and surgical repair.

 

As for prevention and true understanding, I've about let go of Western med approach entirely.

 

 

Edited May 7, 2019 by silent thunder
changed phrasing for clarity and effect

[Song of the Dao]

14 minutes ago, silent thunder said:

As for prevention and true understanding, I've about let go of Western med approach entirely.

 

One or the other? Why? To bring Eastern wisdom into Western wisdom would be like merging heaven and earth, the unification Yin and Yang! But this is the reaction today. Left or right, white or black, east or west. Sad.

 

And is TCM that great? Do they know everything? Go to two different TCM doctors and you will get two different answers. One will say yin deficiency and the other yang excess. Maybe two expert TCM and Eastern Doctors will give the same diagnosis,  but the world is full of people who know little but profess much. Or maybe it is all the heavy metals in the herbals that help in TCM?
 

If one can use western wisdom to explain and translate eastern wisdom I see only benefits as a result.

Edited May 7, 2019 by Song of the Dao

[silent thunder]

It's not about choosing one over another...my point was not to advocate the Western Carpenters approach, or the TCM, or the Ayurvedic, or the...

 

My sharing is that through experience I realize that the front maintained by medical approaches that they have full understanding is just that... a front and that my relationship to the entire approach has softened in its innate trust.  I used to really trust what doctors said.  Like you said, go to two and get two different answers.  Now I realize that doctors are at the behest of the information they had to absorb to get their degrees and this is not full data.

 

So I've about let go of Western approach for prevention and understanding and come to not innately trust what any person says.  I consult them, but not innately trust whatever is offered.  In the West, they excel at trauma and injury, I don't hesitate to go to them when injured.  But the compartmentalization and the Cartesian Materialistic view of the human body system seems woefully inept at this point in addressing and understanding the underlying principles of long term disease. 

 

The fluid human body is not a motorcycle that can be taken apart and replaced when it comes to disease, the way it can when injuries are endured.

Edited May 7, 2019 by silent thunder
grammar

[OldDog]

27 minutes ago, silent thunder said:

Western medicine is great at treating symptoms and caring for trauma and physical damage, ie carpentry and surgical repair.

 

As for prevention and true understanding, I've about let go of Western med approach entirely.

 

 

You ain't just a woofin!

 

I've had the same doctor for about 30 yrs. Finally got tired of trying to find one that made sense. Only go once a year to satisfy the managed care plans annual wellness check.

 

Otherwise, I have a great TCM practitioner to help with everything else. Have found that if I exercise right and maintain guardian qi i do pretty well.

[Song of the Dao]

14 minutes ago, silent thunder said:

It's not about choosing one over another...my point was not to advocate the Western Carpenters approach, or the TCM, or the Ayervedic, or the...

 

My sharing is that through experience I realize that the front maintained by medical approaches that they have full understanding is just that... a front and that my relationship to the entire approach has softened in its innate trust.  I used to really trust what doctors said.  Like you said, go to two and get two different answers.  Now I realize that doctors are at the behest of the information they had to absorb to get their degrees and this is not full data.

 

So I've about let go of Western approach for prevention and understanding and come to not innately trust what any person says.  I consult them, but not innately trust whatever is offered.  In the West, they excel at trauma and injury, I don't hesitate to go to them when injured.  But the compartmentalization and the Cartesian Materialistic view of the human body system seems woefully inept at this point in addressing and understanding the underlying principles of long term disease. 

 

Oh, I see, and agree. People who know are a dime a dozen.

 

Quote

The fluid human body is not a motorcycle that can be taken apart and replaced when it comes to disease, the way it can when injuries are endured.

 

Yet we can replace a human heart which was damaged by a virus and keep the fluidity going. It is just easier to understand motorcycles because we created motorcycles and Heaven created humans, so our bodies are more difficult to understand.

 

 

Edited May 7, 2019 by Song of the Dao

[OldDog]

"The worst thing that ever happened to healthcare was it became an industry."

- Anonymous

[silent thunder]

1 hour ago, OldDog said:

"The worst thing that ever happened to healthcare was it became an industry."

- Anonymous

Sadly true.

 

It seems that while the industry that is American healthcare will do what it can to treat you, it will extract as much cash as possible in the process.

 

The American healthcare industry to me seems financially predatory in nature.

[OldDog]

1 hour ago, silent thunder said:

The American healthcare industry to me seems financially predatory in nature.

 

Never heard it expressed in such strong terms ... but, yeah, I have to agree.

[Song of the Dao]

4 hours ago, OldDog said:

"The worst thing that ever happened to healthcare was it became an industry."

- Anonymous

 

"The worst thing that ever happened to spirituality was it became an industry."

 

-Song of the Dao

Edited May 7, 2019 by Song of the Dao

[OldDog]

1 hour ago, Song of the Dao said:

The worst thing that ever happened to spirituality was it became an industry.

 

Could be ... but I don't  have to depend on anyone to be spiritual.

[Small Fur]

On 3/24/2019 at 1:39 AM, Lazgrane said:

I read that Qi and Blood are closely connected to one another. Qi is responsible for moving blood and ensuring that it does not get stuck and stagnate in the vessels. Meanwhile Blood nourish Qi and provide a solid anchor to keep it from floating away.

 

There are numerous pratices concerning the Qi, but are there any method or pratices concerning the Blood?

 

How could one strengthen his Blood?

 

 

 

 

—Disclaimer—
I am generally cautious about giving direction on the forum regarding bodily and health practices generically: this is because people are comprised in unique and specific ways, and it is important not to act concertedly and specifically upon generic understandings and thus become potentially reckless towards yourself through ignorance… too often I see people attesting on this forum and clients coming to me with mental and physical injury resulting from careless, unconscious and incomplete understanding of health and lifestyle practices. So this is a brief answer intended to give insight rather than provide direct instruction. Examples are given for reference, not as a form of medical advice.

———

 

 

As with all levels of Taoist practices- be this from the physical body to the spirit, appropriate purification and tonification are necessary in all areas and at all levels of existence. The more holistic your understanding and approach, the more healthfully complete and deep the effect.

 

PURIFICATION of Blood
To simplify, make sure you are cleansing your blood: at the most essential level through bringing shen into the blood, and at the most coarse end of that spectrum through dietary/ medicinal consumption and healthful movement.

 

Examples*:
Shen- through reconnecting with one’s yuan shen, to making connection with the little shen (hun) of the liver in meditation and guiding this consciousness in to the body.

 

Dietary- some options could be organic dark leafy greens, algae, foods or medicines that act upon the liver as a detoxifier such as astragulus, milk thistle and dandelion root. From a Taoist perspective, foods which are green and bitter; so as to astringe the liver.  (Note: if you run deficient and cold or have poor and weak digestion, then make sure the plants have been warmed and cooked before consumption, as green plants run etherically cold and can imbalance a system in states of xu [deficiency]. Also note that in this case, by medicinal, I mean any concentrated form of a natural substance, such as an extract.)

Movement- breathing and physical practices which open up the flow of the body from energetically/ meridian-based to physically. This can be engaged practices like yoga and stretching, dry brushing; or passive things such as receiving meridian-based massages like tui na or shiatsu. Breath breath breath and learn to pair breath with movement.

 

 

TONIFICATION of Blood
To simplify, make sure you are building your blood: at the most essential level through harnessing qi and at the most coarse end of that spectrum through dietary/medicinal consumption and healthful movement.

 

Examples*:
Qi- harnessing this through internal or external alchemy will help to fortify the materiality of the blood. Again, principles of dietary, movement and consciousness apply to the methods of gathering qi. If you cannot identify or understand what you are doing in your qi gong or tai chi practice then you can begin having a better sense by focusing gathering practices (which usually involve grasping  movements), and tonifying practices (which usually involve pumping movements). Practices along the Liver channel are particularly beneficial when dealing with issues of the blood.

 

Dietary- any form of warm, pre-processed qi, particularly those metabolized by other large warm animals- including pig, sheep, and bovine. Dang Shen or cordynopsis root; ren shen or red ginseng; and gou ti zhi or wolfberries (goji) are all herbs listed in the canon of herbal Classics. (Be conscientious that if your dosha is imbalanced toward kapha or your system overweight heavy and sluggish, then these might be cloying and are not generally advised. To be safe, consult with a TCM herbalist to determine what herb is best for your issues. Be aware that most Chinese herbal medicine is not prescribed as a single herb, but in formulas to balance effects of the herbs themselves and so that they are also working in concert with your personal body composition and issues.)

 

Movement- strength training- particularly to increase vessel tone, deep powerful breathing exercises, and rooted full movement can increase the quality of strength in purified blood. (Do not train in excess to where you are straining yourself and causing physical harm or simply building generic mass. Blood- in itself or as qi; needs strong, clear and healthful space to move and coarse; poor forms of body mass density and further injury will only hinder this process.)

*At all times, make sure you are not eating, dosing, moving or doing deep cultivation practices based on generic ideas of what is healthful that you simplistically read from websites, books, or just because it works for someone else who isn’t you, etc.,. You must understand and be in connection to YOUR body and know how YOUR body works or doesn’t work. Do not just follow dietary, medicinal and lifestyle suggestions mindlessly (such as from faith only or incomplete information), from immature drives (such as for power, even ‘Taoist or martial' power) or based from fears (such as anger about your life condition, worry about your health, etc.,)

Be clear   Seek appropriate, specific and healthful guidance.

 

 

And because this is an excellent fundamental question to what it is we are specifically addressing, and so that you realize what is blood and qi consciously and not as simply a theory or romantic notion and then proceed to try and affect it without realizing what it is, I have provided a basic answer to the following question to be paired with this post:

 

On 4/12/2019 at 10:36 AM, rideforever said:

Can anyone experience the blood ?
Can anyone experience qi rising from the blood ?

And say something about it to help us also experience it ?

 

Yes, the easiest most basic way to experience this is to do a concentrated amount of cardiovascular movement over a condensed period of time. When you heart is pounding a strong healthy and slightly quick pace: stop. Notice that the sensation of the physical pumping through your veins and arteries is blood. Notice that the heat and feeling of expansion arising from the pumping of blood is qi coarsing through your body.

 

Experience this by being still and present in the body. Proceed by moving vigorously as suggested above. Then coming back into present, still awareness of your body in the invigorated state while bringing your consciousness in discernment.

 

And of course yes, there are most subtle ways to experience the essentially of your system and its subtle functions and manifestations at rest, but this takes deeper body and meditative cultivative awareness, which can come through deep learning and practice.

 

Happy Qi and Blood to All!

 

 

Edited May 8, 2019 by Small Fur

[Dynasty]

 

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Edited May 8, 2019 by Dynasty
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