Concerning Alchemy and Enlightenment?

[Adam West]

Edited February 18, 2008 by Adam West

[林愛偉]

Hi Adam..

 

Here are your questions and answers:

 

" I was wondering what is your take on internal alchemal practices at it pertains to the transformation of the three treasures, sitting meditation and enlightenment?"

 

Alchemical practices will happen with intent or not as long as the methods work to attain wisdom.

 

 

"Some traditions and adepts seem to advocate a very gentle and natural method of internal alchemy, passive you might say; however, those methods apparently made use of by such traditions as the Mo-Pai and Verdesi's Path of Thunder and Lightening etc., seem to make use of more active techniques such as active breath manipulation - abdominal breathing, and attempting to compress the chi in the Dan Tien through breath retention (similar to the alchemal methods of the Indian kundalini yoga traditions and Tibetan vase breathing of inner heat yoga). These kinds of methods - the ones I have termed active, rather than those that are more passive allowing the breath to still and the practitioner to merge with it and so on - seem to be the alchemy practices in most peoples minds - in the west - when alchemy is spoken of.

 

What do you think of this artificial demarcation, this dichotomy? "

 

They are both of the same function of cultivation. Its just that the person cultivating them attached to sensation of either hard or soft, yin or yang, passive or aggressive during the cultivation of it, and thus felt one way was better than the other. Kind of like Bruce Lee only learning upto half of the Second form in Wing Chun, not going further, created JKD, died. Then Guru Inosanto going to Sigung Moy Yat for 3yrs, learning all Wing Chun and then stating, "If Bruce would have learned the 3rd form, he would have went right back to Wing Chun."

 

"Do you practice both methods?"

 

I cultivate breathing. When it is time to hold, there is holding, when it is time to settle without holding, there is no breath. So basically, I don't see the two as different from eachother. There is one manner, there will be the other manner. They both move to each other. You can say I do both, you can say they both come as one cultivates breathing

 

"In your view, are the active ones considered higher, and more esoteric and is this why (to my knowledge), you have not spoken of them in public?"

 

I don't speak about this kind of work in public or in a Dharma Lecture, cultivation meet simply because though many are well cultivated, there still is the yearning for more. When there is no more yearning, they will know the mind, know the breath and thus know the mechanics of the body. When they are awakened to that without the yearning in any manner, they will realize the method for this work through the methods I give them, because they would be my students . And thus it will be their own cultivation, with a bit of guidance here and there until I see it to be of right time to assist with furthering their function. So basically, I wait till there is a specific time in their cultivation when it is proper for them to get it and I give it.

 

"What are your general conclusions, and how did you come to them with confidence?"

 

Through my own practice from a child till now, I learned that no matter what the method for alchemical cultivation, or any cultivation, the mind is first and foremost. If one doesn't know where the mind is, how the hell are they cultivating it in the first place? All of this "I am here and all is me and I am one" nonsense keeps people stuck. This, when I was younger, fed my arrogant mind as a teen. So, mind is a first, and when that is made to be "pure", then abilities, and proper methods manifest...Wisdom mind is first and foremost, then with the wisdom there will be the realizing of methods.

 

 

"Another question, I wonder if you could help me with is this:

 

There appears to be a general perception - prejudice, perhaps(?) - in Buddhist circles that Taoist practice does not get beyond the eighth consciousness (alaya-vijnana - Store consciousness) - in Buddhist terminology - and thus, Taoist practice without shamatha and vipassana practice cannot lead to full realisation of the Tao, or enlightenment - realisation of the one's original face insofar as [assuming the yogachara schema] the transformation of the eighth consciousness into the Perfect-Great-Mirror Wisdom (Luk, 1984). I will call this thesis the problem from Taoist meditation.

 

What do you think about this thesis and why?"

 

One may see their Original Face, but they still need to strip the habits and faces off that mind...as well as the mind itself. Mindfulness and the dropping of there being one who is mindful is a key. Hold fast to that until you don't need to. This is the problem. Because of the cultivation through body first and mind not far behind, the attachment to a personality, a likeness is hard to put down, and thus results in a longer time spent cultivating, and possibly causing more problems along the time cultivating, within the Daoist school.

 

"In your experience, does this attitude generally prevail in Buddhism, and do you think it is justified?"

 

Not only does it prevail in Buddhism, many Buddhists themselves get stuck in the same state and think they reached great awakenings, when all they did was feed arrogance, and hold views against another. There is no justification. Cultivation is cultivation. One way or another, no matter how long it takes, You will become a realized Buddha... lol Some methods result in a gradual, and some result in a spontaneous. The spontaneous is upon those who cultivated many lifetimes and all of a sudden BOOM! enlightened... but to a degree.. they still got to do more. And the gradual is for those who are capable of understanding here and there, putting down habits here and there..falling off, climbing back on, going up and down until enough time in cultivating and then... Boom!

 

"The problem from Taoist meditation may have Buddhist scriptural support, but do you see it as having any independent experiential and historical justification?"

 

The reason why it was stated as you speak it was because the Daoists presenting themselves very arrogantly, without the slightest mind of respect for those of another school of cultivation. They formed views and held their manners superior. If it was that the Daoists knew the truth of no actual self, then humility would be manifest and people could actually discuss and share the views used as the methods of cultivating whatever it is their conditions of the mind are as.

 

There is a bit of historical ...story : Briefly, 67 Ad two Buddhist monks were welcomed to China, but the DAoists called them Barbarians...lol and unorthodoxed teachings, poison. They held a contest to burn the Daoist and Buddhist texts to show which one was the True Cultivation. When the books were lit on fire, all 400 plus Daoists recited mantras to Laozi hoping to have the texts protected. The Buddhist monks stood and watched. The Buddha's Sharira were also present and they shone a great light, the fire also was taken over by a great light, and all the Daoists who had great spirtitual abilities lost them. The fire died out and the Daoist texts were burnt to ashes, but the Buddhist texts were fine without a mark on them. The two Head Daoist monks died of rage on the spot, and the remaining 400 Daoists shaved their heads and became Buddhists. That first sutra was the Buddha Speaks the Sutra in 42 Sections. That is just one story.

Over all, it was people who began the war between Daoists and Buddhists. It was an oral war..heads against heads...nothing more. Its quite simple... China, America... we're all human right? Daoist, Buddhist.. its still cultivation...right?

 

 

"In the context of this classical debate, according to your insights, what ought a Taoist do to achieve enlightenment, must he practice vipassana, active or passive alchemy, or just sitting and forgetting?"

 

He must attain wisdom first, untie the knot of a mind he/she has. Awaken to non-dual teachings, and realize that wisdom. After that, and during it, abilities that alchemy usually results in , will manifest, and it will be good. Any holding onto of states and they fall. Its quite simple.

 

 

I hope you and others realize that I am not talking from the mind of the Buddhist and Daoist ways you all know. I hold no bias towards one or the other. Plain and simple, cultivate the method, and utilize a good foundation of patience, compassion and wisdom, and everything else comes no problem.

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

Edited February 19, 2008 by 林愛偉

[Starjumper]

I'm afraid that shows plenty of bias, you just don't see it because you think your way is the only true way. =)

 

Don't get me wrong. it does contain some truths too.

Edited February 19, 2008 by Starjumper7

[Adam West]

Hey SJ,

 

I think Lin's central thesis is the development of wisdom and all else follows organically. Do you think this is a truth or a bias?

 

I would be interested in hearing you ideas on how we may realize the absolute! What ya reckon? Anyone else?

 

In kind regards,

 

Adam.

[hagar]

The differences btw active and passive, micro and macro is mostly on an intellectual level.

 

In practice, you use active techniques to overcome limitation, and passive techniques to overcome form.

 

h

[林愛偉]

I'm afraid that shows plenty of bias, you just don't see it because you think your way is the only true way. =)

 

Don't get me wrong. it does contain some truths too.

 

 

 

Okay.

Instead of cultivating to realize what the difference between what "real and false" is, everyone go head in and cultivate without knowing what you are doing, where it will take you as well as if the person teaching it is expounding proper teachings to keep yourself from harming yourself.

 

Is that unbiased enough? Discriminative mind without wisdom is still ignorance mind, confused mind, arrogance mind. This is where people begin to think Daoists don't need to worry about virtue, moral, wisdom. That Daoists are depicted as being indifferent. I know a lot of people who cultivate Daoism who claim indifference is a great mind. They forget that its still a state.

 

One says "Wisdom" and all of a sudden they are bias towards Buddhism. HAHAHA Like Daoists can't attain wisdom...is this what you are saying? Maybe this view of Daoists going head first into their sensations, and thoughts of grandeur are true. Seems so if we have people all over the place calling themselves Daoists and doing nothing in the world but hoarding cultivation for abilities they won't get this lifetime.

 

Bias or unbias. Here is a four line gatha for you. Biased or not, even Daoists investigate it.

 

Where the dual mind arises,

the non-dual mind resides.

The Chan stick strikes and there is no direction.

What distinguished?

 

There were no views of a Buddhist or Daoist held when writing my response. But there was when you read it. When one looks directly at the causes and conditions, bias mind does not exists. One can see what arises and falls and wisely discriminate.

 

What ever views one holds, attaining a human body isn't as easy as losing it. Cultivate, attain wisdom, that's all there is.

 

Peace and Blessings.

Lin

Edited February 19, 2008 by 林愛偉

[林愛偉]

This is good. When one is blown by the winds, the teachings can be expounded. Cause and Effect.

 

Wonderful it is indeed.

Edited February 19, 2008 by 林愛偉

[.broken.]

Concepts are communicated through words.

Words create conceptions.

 

Conceptions are general.

Generalising omits all information.

Being uninformed means ignorant.

 

Ignorance means a lack of empathy.

Empathy is a basis for compassion.

'True' compassion is without ignorance.

 

Attempts to attain will fail.

Attempts to fail won't attain.

Don't attempt, no intent.

 

Sit to sit, breathe to breathe, moment to moment.

 

Now.

[Wun Yuen Gong]

Hi Brother Lin,

 

Love your post man, please post some more stories of buddhist and daoist how they fought or disagreed?

 

cheers

WYG

[Pero]

I'm afraid that shows plenty of bias, you just don't see it because you think your way is the only true way.

 

LOL at the irony.

 

 

Hi Brother Lin,

 

Love your post man, please post some more stories of buddhist and daoist how they fought or disagreed?

 

Why? I think it wouldn't do much good, but propitiate arguments.

[Wun Yuen Gong]

Pero,

 

Cause i like to know!

 

WYG

[Pero]

Pero,

 

Cause i like to know!

 

WYG

[林愛偉]

Hi Brother Lin,

 

Love your post man, please post some more stories of buddhist and daoist how they fought or disagreed?

 

cheers

WYG

 

 

You can look at the forum...and those who claim to be Buddhist and Daoists tell a good story about agreeing and disagreeing.

 

I cultivate methods that result in wisdom, and non-confusion. I haven't quite attained great wisdom yet.

These methods come from what people call Buddhist and Daoist. But there is nothing that can be called Daoist and Buddhist... really.

 

But for the sake of saying so, for the sake of living beings and the conditions of themind, we say there is Buddhist and Daoist...

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

[affenbrot]

[Wun Yuen Gong]

Hey Lin

 

What does it feel like to have a pure heart, does it talk about this in Buddhism i think it does but what does one feel or know when they have pure heart, is that what they call Wisdom in buddhist terms or enlightenment?

 

 

Ive heard that we are all Illusions if we are Illusions are we just making all this religion and methods up to make us feel we have reached enlightenment or is it real? LOL What is real???

 

NOW IM CONFUSED!!!!

 

P.S Its 5am nightshift is killing me

 

WYG

[Starjumper]

OK my friends, Lin, Adam and Wun Yuen ... and to others who aren't friendly ...

 

Cultivating wisdom is a good thing, we can agree to that, but wisdom can only be related to Te and it manifests in what Buddhists call spontaneous right action.

 

Thinking that concepts of your original face are important you will see someday as being a farce. Just because we sometimes feel like we aren't there while meditating is of no importance, if we peek we will see that we are still there, so it is just a sensation, one of many and should not lead one to think that the question "Who am I?" is important. Concepts are words and words are a shallow substitute for reality, it is all a mind game. All conceptual based tools of that type will either lead one astray or be dropped. This is at the core of fundamentalism versus spirituality and the fundamentalists will NEVER see the light.

[joeblast]

Tell me if I'm off here, but to me, wisdom is both rudimentary and advanced as well as a key to a pure heart. With proper emphasis on cultivating wisdom, one's path becomes clearer.

 

SJ, it almost seems like you're dismissing wisdom, on some level? But then, your last paragraph ostensibly supports wisdom?

[Todd]

WYG,

 

Lin may have a better response than I do, but the only way I know to answer your question is allow it to drop into your heart. How is your heart with it?

 

When we stay in the head with the question, it gets all locked up. Even stillness in the head (not having an answer) is a state of rigor, or even if it is a relaxation, it cannot really live until it drops into the heart.

 

The heart has the question that lives.

 

It is not worried about enlightenment. It has a force greater than any desire filtered through the head, though. We can only feel it by giving up any attempt to feel. Just for the heck of it... just for a moment, let it pass through your chest, front and back, without stirring a breeze.

 

Respectfully,

Todd

[Wun Yuen Gong]

I dont think ill ever have a pure heart in this life Todd, i mean look at the world we live in and our lives at present , sorry i dont mean to be judging anyone but myself i am very far from perfect and im sure many the same. So what does it feel like to have a pure heart, you know what im saying?

 

It must feel awesome to be completely pure and if you do get it does one get enlightened or move to the next realms?

 

cheers

WYG

[mYTHmAKER]

OK my friends, Lin, Adam and Wun Yuen ... and to others who aren't friendly ...

 

Cultivating wisdom is a good thing, we can agree to that, but wisdom can only be related to Te and it manifests in what Buddhists call spontaneous right action.

 

Thinking that concepts of your original face are important you will see someday as being a farce. Just because we sometimes feel like we aren't there while meditating is of no importance, if we peek we will see that we are still there, so it is just a sensation, one of many and should not lead one to think that the question "Who am I?" is important. Concepts are words and words are a shallow substitute for reality, it is all a mind game. All conceptual based tools of that type will either lead one astray or be dropped. This is at the core of fundamentalism versus spirituality and the fundamentalists will NEVER see the light.

 

One more time because I'm looking for an excuse not to get to work.

The question who am I is beyond concepts. It is tool to stop the mind

in order to experience the wholeness of everything - to understand who you really are.

If you treat the question as if it is in the realm of concepts you will remain on the surface.

You must let it take you inside - you must follow it inside.

The question who am I is an internal practice. Thinking of it as a mind game and asking

yourself superficial questions is an external practice.

And we all know the difference between internal and external pratices.

[Adam West]

This is at the core of fundamentalism versus spirituality and the fundamentalists will NEVER see the light.

 

Hey SJ,

 

Yes, but through proper cultivation - whatever that is - it seems we can transcend or see through the discursive mind and the said limitations of language. So this brings us back to the question of what is proper cultivation. Even assuming a non-dual stand where there is nothing to see or nothing to get or even cultivate - enlightenment or otherwise - it seems to most that something is missing, that they exist and they are suffering or somehow incomplete - perceptual or something more primitive; thus, the search moves forward, as each is relentlessly compelled whether through sensual gratification, emotional or psychological drives or spiritual aspirations. So, we may say how to properly cultivate, or we may ask how do we find lasting - non-contingent - peace, satisfaction and happiness; or how do we notice that which we already are? Word or frame it as you like, but the historical human cognitive experience is a real one, a need at this level, I would suggest, has existed in every person through time - locally at least. Resolution is sort - a drive that is fundamental to the human condition. So the problem of resolution is a genuine one, and exists whether their is a language to describe it in or not. Certainly, we need language to discuss it. And the scientific method seems to suggest some descriptions are more useful than others, and perhaps statistically, more effective at realizing a resolution to the said problem.

 

It would appear Lin has argued for the development of wisdom as a means to the resolution of the above said problem. SJ, do you feel this is an adequate solution? Would you offer some other, more concrete, less vague proposition? Wisdom as a trans-personal referent - perhaps a non-dualistic state or condition personally developed or realized - may not be vague per se, but its linguistic representation certainly is. For what is wisdom and when is X not wisdom?

 

In kind regards,

 

Adam.

Edited February 20, 2008 by Adam West

[林愛偉]

Hey Lin

 

What does it feel like to have a pure heart, does it talk about this in Buddhism i think it does but what does one feel or know when they have pure heart, is that what they call Wisdom in buddhist terms or enlightenment?

Ive heard that we are all Illusions if we are Illusions are we just making all this religion and methods up to make us feel we have reached enlightenment or is it real? LOL What is real???

 

NOW IM CONFUSED!!!!

 

P.S Its 5am nightshift is killing me

 

WYG

 

 

To say it is all illusion is to dwell in the illusion. It is the view which keeps one in the view.

 

Your question can be answered by you cultivating.

 

Peace,

Lin

 

 

OK my friends, Lin, Adam and Wun Yuen ... and to others who aren't friendly ...

 

Cultivating wisdom is a good thing, we can agree to that, but wisdom can only be related to Te and it manifests in what Buddhists call spontaneous right action.

 

Thinking that concepts of your original face are important you will see someday as being a farce. Just because we sometimes feel like we aren't there while meditating is of no importance, if we peek we will see that we are still there, so it is just a sensation, one of many and should not lead one to think that the question "Who am I?" is important. Concepts are words and words are a shallow substitute for reality, it is all a mind game. All conceptual based tools of that type will either lead one astray or be dropped. This is at the core of fundamentalism versus spirituality and the fundamentalists will NEVER see the light.

 

 

De (Te) is Moral not wisdom. De is a result of cultivating wisdom, wisdom is manifest through De. One has moral because they are wise enough to realize cause and effect.

 

The view of holding to the seeing of the Original Face is false. The words itself are false and the idea of there being something else is false as well. Expedients they are, nothing more. There is still more cultivation to get too.

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

 

 

 

 

 

 

One more time because I'm looking for an excuse not to get to work.

The question who am I is beyond concepts. It is tool to stop the mind

in order to experience the wholeness of everything - to understand who you really are.

If you treat the question as if it is in the realm of concepts you will remain on the surface.

You must let it take you inside - you must follow it inside.

The question who am I is an internal practice. Thinking of it as a mind game and asking

yourself superficial questions is an external practice.

And we all know the difference between internal and external pratices.

 

 

At a certain state, one must drop the question, the questioner, the investigating. But it isnot the discriminating mind which does it, for that too had to have been dropped.. lol

 

Great stuff Mythmaker.

 

_/\_

 

Hey SJ,

 

Yes, but through proper cultivation - whatever that is - it seems we can transcend or see through the discursive mind and the said limitations of language. So this brings us back to the question of what is proper cultivation. Even assuming a non-dual stand where there is nothing to see or nothing to get or even cultivate - enlightenment or otherwise - it seems to most that something is missing, that they exist and they are suffering or somehow incomplete - perceptual or something more primitive; thus, the search moves forward, as each is relentlessly compelled whether through sensual gratification, emotional or psychological drives or spiritual aspirations. So, we may say how to properly cultivate, or we may ask how do we find lasting - non-contingent - peace, satisfaction and happiness; or how do we notice that which we already are? Word or frame it as you like, but the historical human cognitive experience is a real one, a need at this level, I would suggest, has existed in every person through time - locally at least. Resolution is sort - a drive that is fundamental to the human condition. So the problem of resolution is a genuine one, and exists whether their is a language to describe it in or not. Certainly, we need language to discuss it. And the scientific method seems to suggest some descriptions are more useful than others, and perhaps statistically, more effective at realizing a resolution to the said problem.

 

It would appear Lin has argued for the development of wisdom as a means to the resolution of the above said problem. SJ, do you feel this is an adequate solution? Would you offer some other, more concrete, less vague proposition? Wisdom as a trans-personal referent - perhaps a non-dualistic state or condition personally developed or realized - may not be vague per se, but its linguistic representation certainly is. For what is wisdom and when is X not wisdom?

 

In kind regards,

 

Adam.

 

 

It is one thing to say all is realized, it is another to have realized. TO have the Buddha Nature and not be a realized Buddha are two different things. This is what wholesome cultivation is... development, cultivation of and realization of Wisdom, Virtue. Nothing else.

 

When there is a realization of Non Duality, a realization of no observer, no no observer, getting close we are indeed. It is the cultivation of such which gets one there, and its the realization that cultivationthough was only because of the defilements of the mind, didn't really exist either. But that doesn't change the fact that there are defilements in the mind. Those must be put down. The cultivation of putting down results in Wisdom.

 

It is hard for people to believe, for it is hard to take full responsibility of every single little thing that "happens' to "oneself".

 

Good stuff though Adam. I love your inquiries.

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

 

 

P.S.- the last few posting I was very stern. Not "Not Nice" just stern.

Edited February 20, 2008 by 林愛偉

[Wun Yuen Gong]

Thanks Lin, i understand your last comment but what i am trying to understand is what is wisdom on what level are we talking. What type of wisdom?

 

WYG

[林愛偉]

Thanks Lin, i understand your last comment but what i am trying to understand is what is wisdom on what level are we talking. What type of wisdom?

 

WYG

 

 

Okay.

 

Wisdom meaning not confused, not moved by greed, anger, ignorance and arrogance. Being able to distinguish between causes for proper outcomes, and being able to realize one's own causes and conditions of their own mind, thus realizing the causes and conditions of living beings.

 

Pure Heart is Compassion, Wisdom and Patience. All three are eachother, and each one results in each other.

 

What does it feel like? As though all others are just you. As though all others are not separate, and there is only a great indiscriminate state where there is not one being excluded from your care and concern.

 

Can it be conceived? Through cultivating those methods which result in it.

 

Just remember, the Buddha Dharma which has become the study in universities, and the study upon the living room couch, recliner, etc, it barely the surface.

 

Yet still, it is indeed difficult for many to believe it.

 

Peace and Blessings brother,

Lin

[Todd]

I dont think ill ever have a pure heart in this life Todd, i mean look at the world we live in and our lives at present , sorry i dont mean to be judging anyone but myself i am very far from perfect and im sure many the same. So what does it feel like to have a pure heart, you know what im saying?

 

It must feel awesome to be completely pure and if you do get it does one get enlightened or move to the next realms?

 

cheers

WYG

 

 

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