Concerning Alchemy and Enlightenment?

[林愛偉]

But how to change your views--- this is the tricky part.

 

 

Perfect Question!

 

Changing one's views begins with the recognizing of one's habitual reactions towards that which moves their mind. Once there is recognition of the habitual response, one must investigate the mind to find the origin of such habit. Then, investigate the function of that habit and its results when utilized. Afterwards one will realize whether its function results in wholesome or unwholesome outcomes. Upon one's wise discrimination, the habitual view can be put down accordingly.

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

 

Brother Starjumper,

 

Peace and Blessings

Edited February 23, 2008 by 林愛偉

[Adam West]

Hey this thread is developing very nicely. It is an inquiry on the how-to and what is important on the path to enlightenment.

 

I will, when I get some time, review what has been said, and probe further. As there are some very interesting debates and propositions that have come up... I love it... Thanks, all, for sharing..!

 

In kind regards,

 

Adam.

[doc benway]

But how to change your views--- this is the tricky part.

So true! It can be done however - see Lin's post!

 

I changed my mind. Lin is right, you do need to cultivate wisdom in order to outlive The Fear.

 

A somewhat delicate definition of the word Wisdom is required to make it work that way, it seems, doesn't it?

It is so important to define our terms when discussing such matters for there to be productive exchange.

 

Perfect Question!

 

Changing one's views begins with the recognizing of one's habitual reactions towards that which moves their mind. Once there is recognition of the habitual response, one must investigate the mind to find the origin of such habit. Then, investigate the function of that habit and its results when utilized. Afterwards one will realize whether its function results in wholesome or unwholesome outcomes. Upon one's wise discrimination, the habitual view can be put down accordingly.

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

 

Brother Starjumper,

 

Peace and Blessings

Beautifully put, Lin.

Mindfullness, followed by action based on values rather than conditioned or habituated response.

 

I'll add one other thing, if I may. We tend to be conditioned to avoid negative emotions and feelings. We are discouraged from expressing them and they are painful to experience. These are usually the triggers you refer to. First, it is helpful to learn how to accept the negative emotions and feelings rather than fight, analyze, deny, or try to change them. Feelings and emotions cannot be changed and are natural and normal. Accept them, then the process of choosing desired action rather than acting based on conditioning can be instituted.

[林愛偉]

Feelings and emotions cannot be changed and are natural and normal. Accept them, then the process of choosing desired action rather than acting based on conditioning can be instituted.

 

 

Feelings and emotions are the guest dust, What changes is the view we hold of them, and the momentum we add to them. Since they are empty, there is nothing that is changed of them, they are as they aren't. It is the views held upon them which indeed change.

One doesn't have to have feelings and emotions, but one can utilize them for chosen outcomes. Mindfulness indeed.

 

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

[Stigweard]

I love all this dialogue

developing consciousness

coming together

doing linguistic push hands

finding each others rhythm

translating words meaning

exploring the nebulus of mixed ideas

growing learning

never the same again

yet always we are

dust drifts

and we are gone

[WhiteTiger]

First, it is helpful to learn how to accept the negative emotions and feelings rather than fight, analyze, deny, or try to change them. Feelings and emotions cannot be changed and are natural and normal. Accept them, then the process of choosing desired action rather than acting based on conditioning can be instituted.

 

For me personally, I can learn to accept these negative and/or bad habbits, then let go of the fight against them the mind trying to analyze, deny or try change them. (Xuesheng, depends what you mean by feelings and emotions are natural and normal) But they should naturally flow (I believe).

 

I totally and utterly disagree with choosing desired action (you shouldn't desire the action, or do the action... you should try and be free of desire. although our definitions might be colliding here) My definition of desire, is the flame in side that is talked about in Buddhism. My actions should not be based on desire, but rather pure clerity of ones self choice. AFTER the flame of desire is put out. (So in other words once you have nothing to push you towards desire of a pitfall of your own path, you can choose freely to deter off your path... but how many people do that... i personally can't imagine many but i guess some would)

 

Anyone have any suggestions of my problem at hand... letting go isn't my whole issue i believe... but the fear i shall never get past them... sure i work towards changing them, but i often find myself lossing in the end.

[Starjumper]

:

Can Now exist as pure being, perception, awareness, receptivity?

 

Yes

 

 

As long as there is a view within the mind of the being experiencing, and a thought

of there being something experienced, there is a thought, therefore "Now" is still a state with a Mirror and a stand. It must not only be dusted off constantly, but it also must be dropped. A "Now" indicates a time, an experiencer of it and the experience of a "Now" existing. It is said to exist, but only in mind, thus it is a state and if there is attachment to it, it wouldn't be a pure state of awareness. An awareness regarded requires a view of ego, others, a being and a lifespan, or one or the other...in which they will result in one or the other.

 

I agree that if the experiencer of now is thinking about it then that removes them from it.

 

Actually I missread the question in question and ignored the Now word.

 

I was answering "yes" to the following idea:

 

Can You (not Now) exist as pure being, perception, awareness, receptivity?

Edited February 24, 2008 by Starjumper7

[joeblast]

And is it still just a state?

[Oolong Rabbit]

I was answering "yes" to the following idea:

 

Can You (not Now) exist as pure being, perception, awareness, receptivity?

 

Hmm, but can you do it indefinitely?

[林愛偉]

And is it still just a state?

 

 

Any "existing" is a state. Any regarding something existing is in the mind of regarding, it is thus a state as well.

 

States aren't wrong. They serve a function. When the function is understood, then use of the state will be good. When the function is misunderstood, the use of the state would result in unpleasant outcomes, even when the person says they are good.

 

The trick is that once a state is reached, do not grasp it by saying "this is good indeed. I like this, feels good." Those thoughts can lead to one claiming to be a sage. If that is so, the state is a bad one and will result in unpleasant outcomes.

 

 

Understand the function, utilize it through wisdom. Then, it can be considered good, but do not chase after it.

 

Peace,

Lin

[doc benway]

Xuesheng, depends what you mean by feelings and emotions are natural and normal) But they should naturally flow (I believe).

I mean anything that arises in the mind. I'm not looking to define what is normal or distinguish healthy vs unhealthy. Just making the point that thoughts, emotions, feelings arise and are all related to the organic (I'm using this in place of natural or normal) funtion of the brain. Struggling against them causes internal conflict.

 

I totally and utterly disagree with choosing desired action (you shouldn't desire the action, or do the action... you should try and be free of desire. although our definitions might be colliding here) My definition of desire, is the flame in side that is talked about in Buddhism. My actions should not be based on desire, but rather pure clerity of ones self choice. AFTER the flame of desire is put out.

You're missing my intent due to my poor choice of (limitation of) words. By desire here I was simply refering to choosing one action over another, based on one's values rather than conditioning, in order to attain a more fruitful outcome.

[mYTHmAKER]

But how to change your views--- this is the tricky part.

 

The times i have been able t chang my views have been the times i have been

able to step back, to get out of my way and really hear what was being said.

When i could see the quirks in my interactions i could change them.

When i could see my relationship in and to the world.

A matter of being less reactive, less defensive.

We cannot change what we cannot see or feel.

[Stigweard]

[林愛偉]

Edited February 25, 2008 by 林愛偉

[Stigweard]

I like the use of the phrase "Tonal". I read the link you referred to. Interesting. States that arise of the mind which are influenced by the "Tonal" are that way to a point though. I agree with your view in describing the influence mental states has upon them. After a point of stripping away the influences, the "Tonal" also becomes less of itself, and thus the states attained are less influenced by past views and are less needing an influence for its characteristics.

 

Everything you state though makes very much sense. Each new state is just as illusory as the previous. True indeed. Though one may realize certain things in states, the realizing is illusory, along with the view there being a one who is realizing.

 

Peace,

Lin

 

Ok good good ... I'm glad we are on the same page.

 

I would been inclined that "states that arise of the mind" are the Tonal rather then being merely influenced by the Tonal. We may have a different meaning to the term "state", so ...

 

Question: When you say "states of the mind" or "mental states" what exactly are you meaning by the term "state"?

[WhiteTiger]

Amitabha!

 

Mind explaining to me Lin a little more about this for me... I looked it up tied to a Buddhist practice but could you please expand on it for me whom (me, I) do not understand

[林愛偉]

Ok good good ... I'm glad we are on the same page.

 

I would been inclined that "states that arise of the mind" are the Tonal rather then being merely influenced by the Tonal. We may have a different meaning to the term "state", so ...

 

Question: When you say "states of the mind" or "mental states" what exactly are you meaning by the term "state"?

 

State, or states of mind, mean while in meditation any feeling that overcomes the mind and engulfs the body. Manner of mind where one feels sensations and or sees images in a total unifying manner. They can be both good and bad, and or influenced by outer ...influences.

 

When not meditating, one is usually in a habitual state of mind. So basically, anything that arises and influences the mind, pulls the mind from one direction to another is a state.

 

Peace,

Lin

[林愛偉]

Mind explaining to me Lin a little more about this for me... I looked it up tied to a Buddhist practice but could you please expand on it for me whom (me, I) do not understand

 

 

Sure Finally someone asked...

 

Amitabha is the name of Amitabha Buddha. It means "Limitless Light and Limitless Life."

 

Usually when someone "gets it" I would say it as meaning "RIGHT ON".... and then when someone commends me, I use it as a means to take the focus off me be the commended and put it to the Buddhas.

 

Either way, it is a name of that Buddha, also a Mantra which has an unbelievably amount of functions.

 

When reading it, saying or hearing it, one of the functions of it is to help others create good affinities with Amitabha Buddha. To help others realize that ...that which is "Limitless light and Limitless life"is just the original nature, thus it is pointing the mind back to the source, the original nature. Kind of like calling out the original nature, watering, nourishing the seeds of Bodhi (enlightenment).

 

Like I said, many functions.

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

[mat black]

Amitabha is the name of Amitabha Buddha. It means "Limitless Light and Limitless Life."

 

Usually when someone "gets it" I would say it as meaning "RIGHT ON".... and then when someone commends me, I use it as a means to take the focus off me be the commended and put it to the Buddhas.

 

Either way, it is a name of that Buddha, also a Mantra which has an unbelievably amount of functions.

 

When reading it, saying or hearing it, one of the functions of it is to help others create good affinities with Amitabha Buddha. To help others realize that ...that which is "Limitless light and Limitless life"is just the original nature, thus it is pointing the mind back to the source, the original nature. Kind of like calling out the original nature, watering, nourishing the seeds of Bodhi (enlightenment).

 

>>bows<<

 

in reverence............. _/\_

Edited February 25, 2008 by mat black

[joeblast]

[doc benway]

I'm reading a book about non-duality that I'd like to mention in light of the direction this thread has gone. It's got it's high and low points ( ). Part of it investigates non-duality in the traditions of several of the major religions which was a bit inconsistent. Part of it explores Sri Ramana Maharshi's method. The best part of the book for me is the section dealing with how awakening affects the individual in terms of their profession and includes chapters on psychotherapy, education, art, and cinema. It's called One and is edited by Jerry Katz. The sections on psychotherapy and education were particularly valuable.