On Meditation

[neti neti]

26 minutes ago, dwai said:

Didn't Gurdjieff's stuff feed into the theosophical society of Madame Blavatsky?

 

Maybe. I'm reminded of the fervor with which that movement promoted the "externalization of the hierarchy." The rabbit holes run quite deep. Deep enough to pop up in China, bewildered at how far out a daydream that began with a single thought can go!

Edited April 9, 2019 by neti neti

[Spotless]

Landing an Airplane does not require thinking - hopefully it is a clearheaded utilization of well automated reactions to anomalies and typical general environmental and systems orientations.

Thinking is uncalled for and counter productive - like a quarterback "thinking about who he should throw it too" vs taking immediate unthinking knowing action. If he is thinking about it - he is under those that tackled him.

 

Doing your taxes does not require thinking - it is simply compiling and sorting bits of data - then utilizing assorted discounts. The solutions to all of the sorting is basically like water seeking its lowest point - associative alternatives make choices that require little more than a wafting of ones attention.

 

Building a bridge does not require thinking - following plans requires little in the way of thinking unless anomalies have presented themselves.

Designing a bridge requires considerable "day dreaming" - it requires only clear understanding of the engineering germane to the task and if it is a simple bridge it can be done nearly while asleep. If it is substantial and highly unique it requires movement beyond thought to emotion and resonance and the inspiration that Einstein so often referred to as specifically NOT in thinking but in silence and intuition.

 

Solving a logic problem requires mental attention and capacities most have not mastered - but in the end its not high headed - nor difficult if you have the capacity.

 

It is easily true that few exercise the mental capacities and most can't hold attention beyond a few paragraphs. But for those that have mastered considerable mental capabilities - their ability to fall prey to an inflated head is as equal to any.

 

Creating symphony whether its music or a bridge requires little thinking - and far more happening.

 

Getting the mind out of ones way and reined in as simply a minor but useful asset is the bigger trick for the sleeping to Awaken to.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[rene]

 

7 minutes ago, Spotless said:

Getting the mind out of ones way and reined in as simply a minor but useful asset is the bigger trick for the sleeping to Awaken to.

Maybe. Let me think on it.

 

Kidding aside, good post & I agree.

Nice to see you, btw. 

[Jeff]

4 minutes ago, Spotless said:

Landing an Airplane does not require thinking - hopefully it is a clearheaded utilization of well automated reactions to anomalies and typical general environmental and systems orientations.

Thinking is uncalled for and counter productive - like a quarterback "thinking about who he should throw it too" vs taking immediate unthinking knowing action. If he is thinking about it - he is under those that tackled him.

 

Doing your taxes does not require thinking - it is simply compiling and sorting bits of data - then utilizing assorted discounts. The solutions to all of the sorting is basically like water seeking its lowest point - associative alternatives make choices that require little more than a wafting of ones attention.

 

Building a bridge does not require thinking - following plans requires little in the way of thinking unless anomalies have presented themselves.

Designing a bridge requires considerable "day dreaming" - it requires only clear understanding of the engineering germane to the task and if it is a simple bridge it can be done nearly while asleep. If it is substantial and highly unique it requires movement beyond thought to emotion and resonance and the inspiration that Einstein so often referred to as specifically NOT in thinking but in silence and intuition.

 

Solving a logic problem requires mental attention and capacities most have not mastered - but in the end its not high headed - nor difficult if you have the capacity.

 

It is easily true that few exercise the mental capacities and most can't hold attention beyond a few paragraphs. But for those that have mastered considerable mental capabilities - their ability to fall prey to an inflated head is as equal to any.

 

Creating symphony whether its music or a bridge requires little thinking - and far more happening.

 

Getting the mind out of ones way and reined in as simply a minor but useful asset is the bigger trick for the sleeping to Awaken to.

 

 

To me, all intent requires thinking, but such thinking does not need to be some ongoing monologue in the mind.  Clearheaded utilization of landing controls require intent and action.  Also, a quarter back does not throw a completed pass without a thought on receiver and thought to move arm and throw...

 

This is also why buddha said that Karma = Intent, and there is no intent without thought.

[Spotless]

35 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

This is also why buddha said that Karma = Intent, and there is no intent without thought.

rarely does thought create intent and the Buddha did not say Karma=Intent

 

Intent is primarily an automated response -often lower emotional reaction.

 

Karma is the consequence of "Intent" - grasping - ones willful inertia's.

 

On the mundane levels this is a moralistic teaching - but it is not what the Buddha was getting at.

 

Wilfulness becomes less and less as rebirth scrapes across the desires, ignorance and resistance - Intent is increasingly less grasped and gives way to Self. As Self comes forth Karma is less directive and in Awakening (in the highest sense) gives way entirely.

 

Much of the highest intent has no thought - it is entirely heart born and far beyond thought.

 

 

Edited April 11, 2019 by Spotless

[rene]

To me it seems there are 2 levels of 'thought' being discussed: the underlying non-thought type Spotless refers to - and Jeff's different kind of thinking...wherein we think 'about' something.

Well, that was clear as mud.

Never mind.

Edited April 11, 2019 by rene

[Spotless]

36 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Clearheaded utilization of landing controls require intent and action.  Also, a quarter back does not throw a completed pass without a thought on receiver and thought to move arm and throw

Have you ever piloted an airplane - in landing it is observation and reaction. You might think/dream earlier about where you are going to go and land and when - but once you are IN the landing - you are not thinking - you are observing and reacting.

 

Speak to a quarterback - it is like swallowing - thought is not involved once the ball is snapped - its like a slow motion dance being watched in a moment.

 

"Choice" does not imply thought - but trance allows assumption that choice is a thought based doing when it rarely is anything more than a trance based walking sleep based in the karmic inertia's.

 

 

[Jeff]

52 minutes ago, Spotless said:

rarely does thought create intent and the Buddha did not say Karma=Intent

 

Intent is primarily an automated response -often lower emotional reaction.

 

Karma is the consequence of "Intent" - grasping - ones willful inertia's.

 

On the mundane levels this is a moralistic teaching - but it is not what the Buddha was getting at.

 

Wilfulness becomes less and less as rebirth scrapes across the desires, ignorance and resistance - Intent is increasingly less grasped and gives way to Self. As Self comes forth Karma is less directive and in Awakening (in the highest sense) gives way entirely.

 

Much of the highest intent has no thought - it is entirely heart born and far beyond thought.

 

 

The Nibbedhika Sutta, Anguttara Nikaya 6.63:

Intention (cetana) I tell you, is kamma. Intending, one does kamma by way of body, speech, & intellect.

 

Buddha is very clear on the topic.  If you believe, that Intent is a automated response, then we seem to disagree on the definition of the word intent.  To me, intention is a conscious act, as in the sutra description above.

[Jeff]

40 minutes ago, Spotless said:

Have you ever piloted an airplane - in landing it is observation and reaction. You might think/dream earlier about where you are going to go and land and when - but once you are IN the landing - you are not thinking - you are observing and reacting.

 

Speak to a quarterback - it is like swallowing - thought is not involved once the ball is snapped - its like a slow motion dance being watched in a moment.

 

"Choice" does not imply thought - but trance allows assumption that choice is a thought based doing when it rarely is anything more than a trance based walking sleep based in the karmic inertia's.

 

 

Yes, I have piloted a plane a few times. Also, been a quarterback.  Choice is a thought.  The body moves by a thought.  Just because one does not think the thought aloud and echo it in their mind, does not mean it is not a thought.  

[Jeff]

44 minutes ago, rene said:

To me it seems there are 2 levels of 'thought' being discussed: the underlying non-thought type Spotless refers to - and Jeff's different kind of thinking...wherein we think 'about' something.

Well, that was clear as mud.

Never mind.

 

Don't see how there are two levels of thought.  If you type on a keyboard to respond to me, is there no thought that drives the typing? Or in your terms, is it only a thought if you create a mental echo in your head?

[Fa Xin]

I sure hope my airline pilots are having thoughts about landing the plane !!!!

 

Edited April 11, 2019 by Fa Xin

[thelerner]

23 minutes ago, Fa Xin said:

I sure hope my airline pilots are having thoughts about landing the plane !!!!

 

yes, and that is why my carryon is always a parachute. 

[Stosh]

Dumping the word thought ,,, 1) do we not process data prior to being consciously aware this is going on? , and

2 ) are we accurately aware of the processing that happened once we are aware of the summary? 

I think its yes , and no. 

Edited April 11, 2019 by Stosh

[rene]

33 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

Don't see how there are two levels of thought.  If you type on a keyboard to respond to me, is there no thought that drives the typing? Or in your terms, is it only a thought if you create a mental echo in your head?

 

When I first learned to type..frequent thoughts were: Now where is that 'g', where is that 'u', etc. Now, typing my response to you - my thoughts are..."Ok, how can I explain this clearly..." There is no thought as to where each finger should press.

 

It's the same with flying. I am a pilot. (Private, single-engine, fixed-wing, land, 500+ hrs). The 'mental-echo' you refer to...as in "Oh, There's a cross-wind. Maybe I better correct" was there in the very beginning... but now, as conditions change responses and adaptations become second nature.

 

I understand the posts about hoping your pilot 'thinks'. Me? I'd rather fly with someone that doesn't need to take the time to figure out what to do. But that's just me.

 

 

[rene]

7 minutes ago, Stosh said:

Dumping the word thought ,,, 1) do we not process data prior to being consciously aware this is going on? , and

2 ) are we accurately aware of the processing that happened once we are aware of the summary? 

I think its yes , and no. 

 

That may be closer to it, yep.

 

[Stosh]

11 minutes ago, rene said:

 

That may be closer to it, yep.

 

Ok , then,  say  ,Sam gets bitten by a dog, , the next dog he sees gets processed as a threat, Sam feels fear and figures he is afraid of the dog, so his awareness is the last to know. He meditates and finds that his awareness is secondary to-  a mysterious underlying construct.

Edited April 11, 2019 by Stosh

[Jeff]

4 minutes ago, rene said:

 

When I first learned to type..frequent thoughts were: Now where is that 'g', where is that 'u', etc. Now, typing my response to you - my thoughts are..."Ok, how can I explain this clearly..." There is no thought as to where each finger should press.

 

It's the same with flying. I am a pilot. (Private, single-engine, fixed-wing, land, 500+ hrs). The 'mental-echo' you refer to...as in "Oh, There's a cross-wind. Maybe I better correct" was there in the very beginning... but now, as conditions change responses and adaptations become second nature.

 

I understand the posts about hoping your pilot 'thinks'. Me? I'd rather fly with someone that doesn't need to take the time to figure out what to do. But that's just me.

 

 

 

I think it must be around the definition of the word "think".  When you push the keyboard letter "t", do you really believe that it happens without you telling your body to do it or move in that way?  Or are you saying that you have conditioned your body into automated subconscious responses to me, so there is no need to think about it?  

 

 

[Jeff]

3 minutes ago, Stosh said:

Ok , then,  say  ,Sam gets bitten by a dog, , the next dog he sees gets processed as a threat, Sam feels fear and figures he is afraid of the dog, so his awareness is the last to know. He meditates and finds that his awareness is secondary to-  a mysterious underlying construct.

 

Fear is a thought, even if it is a subconscious thought.

[Stosh]

8 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

Fear is a thought, even if it is a subconscious thought.

I already obviated the word out of my thought experiment, since its obviously a hindrance.

But If you want to call it an emotion , I wouldn't argue. 

[rene]

15 minutes ago, Stosh said:

Ok , then,  say  ,Sam gets bitten by a dog, , the next dog he sees gets processed as a threat, Sam feels fear and figures he is afraid of the dog, so his awareness is the last to know. He meditates and finds that his awareness is secondary to-  a mysterious underlying construct.

 

Your thoughts here elude me, which is good, because then I'd have to think about it. 

 

12 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

I think it must be around the definition of the word "think". That's why it seemed to me you and Spotless were talking about two different things. When you push the keyboard letter "t", do you really believe that it happens without you telling your body to do it or move in that way? It does now, lol. Or are you saying that you have conditioned your body into automated subconscious responses to me, so there is no need to think about it?  Could be. I think about very little these days.  

 

 

Leaving the discussion in good humor  

(Next time I'll think before I jump in. lolol )

[windwalker]

25 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

Fear is a thought, even if it is a subconscious thought.

 

 

An interesting view point one I find my self not agreeing with..

 

 

Quote

Feelings are sparked by emotions and colored by the thoughts, memories, and images that have become subconsciously linked with that particular emotion for you. But it works the other way around too. For example, just thinking about something threatening can trigger an emotional fear response. 

 

https://www.thebestbrainpossible.com/whats-the-difference-between-feelings-and-emotions/

 

Meditation as I practice it though my work "taiji"  allows a response that is not fear based. 

 

 

Mike, my first CMA teacher a sometimes poster here wrote a book on  some of the results of unresolved fear

https://www.facebook.com/FocusingEmptinessBook/   Meditation by what ever means is a good way of looking at 

and releasing it.  

 

 

 

 

Edited April 11, 2019 by windwalker

[Spotless]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

 

Yes, I have piloted a plane a few times. Also, been a quarterback.  Choice is a thought.  The body moves by a thought.  Just because one does not think the thought aloud and echo it in their mind, does not mean it is not a thought.  

So love is brought forth from thought ?

 

Music pours from thought?

 

Much is moved by no thought

 

Cognition/Awareness - no thought needed.

 

The Buddha is very clear about many things and what one gleans from that clarity is often not so clear or quite different than what has been perceived.

 

Intention is the wilfulness - it is why karmic inertia’s exist. “The Buddha is quite clear on this”

 

One can play with the inertia’s - intents - in order to one day be free of the shackles.

 

 

 

[Jeff]

1 minute ago, Spotless said:

So love is brought forth from thought ?

 

Music pours from thought?

 

Much is moved by no thought

 

Cognition/Awareness - no thought needed.

 

The Buddha is very clear about many things and what one gleans from that clarity is often not so clear or quite different than what has been perceived.

 

Intention is the wilfulness - it is why karmic inertia’s exist. “The Buddha is quite clear on this”

 

One can play with the inertia’s - intents - in order to one day be free of the shackles.

 

 

By music, I assume you mean the playing or making of music. And yes, music (like my point of typing a keyboard) require thought to drive the action. See if you can find a brain dead body to play music, type a keyboard or fly a plane. 

 

I think the issue is more if someone is consciously aware of the thoughts or not. And just like Stosh’s dog bite example, there are a lot of people who have built up a lot of subconscious autopilot responses.  But, those autopilot responses are still thoughts to me, mental energy flows translated in “mind”.

 

Subconscious thoughts are still thoughts... They are just below one’s cognition (conscious awareness).

 

 

[Spotless]

1 minute ago, Jeff said:

 

By music, I assume you mean the playing or making of music. And yes, music (like my point of typing a keyboard) require thought to drive the action. See if you can find a brain dead body to play music, type a keyboard or fly a plane. 

 

I think the issue is more if someone is consciously aware of the thoughts or not. And just like Stosh’s dog bite example, there are a lot of people who have built up a lot of subconscious autopilot responses.  But, those autopilot responses are still thoughts to me, mental energy flows translated in “mind”.

 

Subconscious thoughts are still thoughts... They are just below one’s cognition (conscious awareness).

 

 

Your definitions of thought have expanded so broadly that it appears all actions of a person are originated by thought whether there is any awareness of the preceding thought or not - is this your thinking?

 

 

[Jeff]

19 minutes ago, windwalker said:

 

 

An interesting view point one I find my self not agreeing with..

 

 

 

https://www.thebestbrainpossible.com/whats-the-difference-between-feelings-and-emotions/

 

Meditation as I practice it though my work "taiji"  allows a response that is not fear based. 

 

 

Mike, my first CMA teacher a sometimes poster here wrote a book on  some of the results of unresolved fear

https://www.facebook.com/FocusingEmptinessBook/   Meditation by what ever means is a good way of looking at 

and releasing it.  

 

 

 

Guess I dont really understand what you are disagreeing with me about? Also, how is an emotion part of the body and not part of the mind as in your picture? You can have a fully paralyzed body and still have emotions, but you cant have emotions without a mind/thoughts.