On Meditation

[Spotless]

Does a musician - playing as Renee might say “without looking down”

think what comes out of their “goofing” around?

 

Are you really saying a thought however unconscious was the cause of the creative play of a musician?

[Spotless]

9 minutes ago, Jeff said:

. See if you can find a brain dead body to play music, type a keyboard or fly a plane.

You can find a brain dead body that later remembers things while it was brain dead.

 

In fact you bring up a point - is a brain required to have a thought?

 

 

[Jeff]

3 minutes ago, Spotless said:

Your definitions of thought have expanded so broadly that it appears all actions of a person are originated by thought whether there is any awareness of the preceding thought or not - is this your thinking?

 

 

 

My definition has been pretty consistent. For me, both conscious and subconscious mental activity are classified as “thoughts”. And yes, as I have stated in the previous posts, all activities based in an “intent” require a thought to initiate. So, I would differentiate between flying a plane, and a knee jerking when hit with a physician test.

[Jeff]

7 minutes ago, Spotless said:

Does a musician - playing as Renee might say “without looking down”

think what comes out of their “goofing” around?

 

Are you really saying a thought however unconscious was the cause of the creative play of a musician?

 

Yes, any playing of a musician requires thought. Otherwise there is no playing. The intent to play itself or start doing it is even a thought.

[windwalker]

3 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

Guess I dont really understand what you are disagreeing with me about? Also, how is an emotion part of the body and not part of the mind as in your picture? You can have a fully paralyzed body and still have emotions, but you cant have emotions without a mind/thoughts.

 

try reading the link posted to understand the picture.. 

 

If you feel as what you've written what can one say.  

Meditative practices are quite clear about the distinctions, and give clarity in understanding this for those looking for it.. 

 

 

"Fudo Myoo grasps a sword in his right hand and holds a rope in his left hand.¹ He bares his teeth and his eyes flash with anger. His form stands firmly, ready to defeat the evil spirits that would obstruct the Buddhist Law. This is not hidden in any country anywhere. His form is made in the shape of a protector of Buddhism, while his embodiment is that of immovable wisdom. This is what is shown to living things."

 

"

Glancing at something and not stopping the mind is called immovable. This is because when the mind stops at something, as the breast is filled with various judgments, there are various movements within it. When its movements cease, the stopping mind moves, but does not move at all.

If ten men, each with a sword, come at you with swords slashing, if you parry each sword without stopping the mind at each action, and go from one to the next, you will not be lacking in a proper action for every one of the ten.

Although the mind act ten times against ten men, if it does not halt at even one of them and you react to one after another, will proper action be lacking?

But if the mind stops before one of these men, though you parry his striking sword, when the next man comes, the right action will have slipped away.

 

 

 

Considering that the Thousand-Armed Kannon has one thousand arms on its one body, if the mind stops at the one holding a bow, the other nine hundred and ninety-nine will be useless.² It is because the mind is not detained at one place that all the arms are useful."

http://www.alexandrosmarinos.com/TheUnfetteredMind.pdf

[Jeff]

31 minutes ago, Spotless said:

You can find a brain dead body that later remembers things while it was brain dead.

 

 

I find that pretty hard to believe, but would be very interested on reading about it. Any specifics or link you could post?

 

Thanks. 

[windwalker]

more interesting thoughts 

 

Quote

Because emotions are physical, they can be measured objectively by blood flow, brain activity, facial expressions and body stance.   Because feelings are mental, they cannot be measured precisely.  Emotions are generally predictable and easily understood, while feelings are often idiosyncratic and confusing.  

 

Feelings reflect your personal associations to emotions - the other side of the coin. 

This way of distinguishing between emotions and feelings is based on the work of  a prominent neuroscientist at USC Antonio D'Amasio, M.D.   In this model, feelings are sparked by emotions, ignited by the thoughts and images that have become paired with a particular emotion.  

Quote

 While emotions are usually fleeting, the feelings they provoke may persist or grow over a lifetime.  Because emotions initiate feelings, and feelings  in turn initiate emotions, your individual feelings can prompt a never-ending cycle of painful (and confusing) emotions.

 

 

Quote

By understanding the difference between emotions and feelings, you can get to the bottom of the real emotions that underlie your feelings.    This will help you break out of the ongoing cycle of emotions and feelings that confuses and torments you, helping you straighten out your inner world to feel better.

https://emotionaldetective.typepad.com/emotional-detective/2012/04/emotions-vs-feelings.html

 

 

meditation is one path among many to directly understand the difference 

[3bob]

2 hours ago, thelerner said:

yes, and that is why my carry on is always a parachute. 

 

a chute is a nice option if the jet has slowed down enough to exit out of a normally shut emergency door - say at 15k feet,  btw if four or five people have you in a death hug on your way out the door will the chute slow all of you down enough to safely hit the ground?

Edited April 11, 2019 by 3bob

[Fa Xin]

1 hour ago, Spotless said:

You can find a brain dead body that later remembers things while it was brain dead.

 

From a medical perspective this is false.  There's no coming back from brain death.  If someone is pronounced brain dead, clinically they are dead.

 

Coma or vegetative state can still show brain activity, which is probably what you mean.

[neti neti]

Perhaps thought, intent, and action are unified, merely appearing to be linear in their manifestation due to the phenomena of time.

 

My drunk uncle Alan Watts once rambled on about how decisions and their execution are one and instantaneous, regardless of having seemingly originated in thought. He offered a few skill-based examples, like firing a rifle or the shooting of an arrow. One may have thought about it, even imagined going through the motions of that perfect shot in their mind's eye.

 

But in the moment of action, there is no thought involved. In fact, if one thinks about doing it in that moment... instead of just squeezing the trigger, or just lifting up and drawing back, aiming and releasing in one fluid thoughtless doing... then one usually just yanks the trigger or bow and easily misses the mark. Who would've thought that too much thought could be an impediment to success?

 

A noteworthy mention of his, is that this is why some people seem to effortlessly be able to perform impeccably on their very first undertaking, while those who've been perfecting the art their entire lives stand by in disbelief with not much more to say than... "Must be beginner's luck."

 

I believe many athletes and musicians alike can attest to such experiences of watching themselves perform the incredible, immersed in the moment, making any sort of testimony of premeditation, and do please forgive the pun... an afterthought.

Edited April 12, 2019 by neti neti

[neti neti]

Perhaps this subtle reality of "being in the moment" hints at the deep mystery of what Being really is. The mystery which unfolds in and through us as we abide in that "profound meditation on the Self."

Edited April 12, 2019 by neti neti

[windwalker]

28 minutes ago, neti neti said:

Perhaps this subtle reality of "being in the moment" hints at the deep mystery of what being is. The mystery which unfolds in and through us as we abide in that "profound meditation on the Self."

 

The japanese have many practices that embody this

 

 

[Spotless]

6 hours ago, Fa Xin said:

 

From a medical perspective this is false.  There's no coming back from brain death.  If someone is pronounced brain dead, clinically they are dead.

 

Coma or vegetative state can still show brain activity, which is probably what you mean.

https://kgov.com/brain-dead-patients-who-have-recovered

 

”brain dead”  “flat line” 

 

Lots of examples 

[Spotless]

3 hours ago, neti neti said:

Perhaps thought, intent, and action are unified, merely appearing to be linear in their manifestation due to the phenomena of time.

 

My drunk uncle Alan Watts once rambled on about how decisions and their execution are one and instantaneous, regardless of having seemingly originated in thought. He offered a few skill-based examples, like firing a rifle or the shooting of an arrow. One may have thought about it, even imagined going through the motions of that perfect shot in their mind's eye.

 

But in the moment of action, there is no thought involved. In fact, if one thinks about doing it in that moment... instead of just squeezing the trigger, or just lifting up and drawing back, aiming and releasing in one fluid thoughtless doing... then one usually just yanks the trigger or bow and easily misses the mark. Who would've thought that too much thought could be an impediment to success?

 

A noteworthy mention of his, is that this is why some people seem to effortlessly be able to perform impeccably on their very first undertaking, while those who've been perfecting the art their entire lives stand by in disbelief with not much more to say than... "Must be beginner's luck."

 

I believe many athletes and musicians alike can attest to such experiences of watching themselves perform the incredible, immersed in the moment, making any sort of testimony of premeditation, and do please forgive the pun... an afterthought.

Reminds me of one of the first times golfing - I had a putter, and iron and a wood. I was under par and got a hole in one!

Lets just say that was not replicated.

[Jeff]

6 hours ago, Spotless said:

https://kgov.com/brain-dead-patients-who-have-recovered

 

”brain dead”  “flat line” 

 

Lots of examples 

 

These are examples of a coma. As you can see from a headline that your link is actually quoting...

 

Moments from death: Student, 22, in a car crash coma WIGGLED her toe to stop doctors turning off her life-support machine.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3814394/Student-22-left-coma-horror-car-crash-saved-wiggled-toe-moments-doctors-turn-life-support-machine.html?ICO=most_read_module

[Fa Xin]

6 hours ago, Spotless said:

https://kgov.com/brain-dead-patients-who-have-recovered

 

”brain dead”  “flat line” 

 

Lots of examples 

I like to see this sort of thing, but it seems these doctors were quick to pull the plug and free up hospital resources. 

 

Again, there’s no coming back from brain death. The science is very clear on this.

[Spotless]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

 

These are examples of a coma. As you can see from a headline that your link is actually quoting...

 

Moments from death: Student, 22, in a car crash coma WIGGLED her toe to stop doctors turning off her life-support machine.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3814394/Student-22-left-coma-horror-car-crash-saved-wiggled-toe-moments-doctors-turn-life-support-machine.html?ICO=most_read_module

You did not read very far

One had zero brain waves for 17 hours.

These are only a few dozen examples - Many pronounced dead by several doctors - Many about to have their organs removed.

 

But aside from proofs all of which will probably be inadequate for and ever expanding definition of “brain dead” - what initiates a thought?

 

are thoughts initiated by a thought?

 

or is it a stirring of something else?

 

The physical is preceded by the subtle bodies - it is not the other way around. The gross physical body is not the cause nor the house of thought - it is a relative interface and nothing more. It is encumbered light until it is not.

 

The brilliant light which it can attain is preceded in the subtle bodies and in that which has always been.

 

Thoughts are more like leaves.

[dwai]

17 hours ago, Spotless said:

Does a musician - playing as Renee might say “without looking down”

think what comes out of their “goofing” around?

 

Are you really saying a thought however unconscious was the cause of the creative play of a musician?

As a musician who mostly  improvises, I can tell you that there is some thinking involved but mostly at random intervals. The improvisation starts with an active thought,  but then what happens is “I get out of the way”, so the music flows through me and onto the instrument. “I” reappears from time to time to ensure that the improvisation re-enters the primary melody and rhythm of the song (or musical context which is the backdrop), with active checkpoints from time to time. 

Many good artists will tell us that, this is the way for creativity to take place. “Get out of your own way”, “let go” etc etc.

 

this is true for even internal martial arts. My first teacher’s constant admonishment  was “get out of your own way”  

 

BTW very interesting turn in the discussion...

[Jeff]

13 minutes ago, Spotless said:

You did not read very far

One had zero brain waves for 17 hours.

These are only a few dozen examples - Many pronounced dead by several doctors - Many about to have their organs removed.

 

But aside from proofs all of which will probably be inadequate for and ever expanding definition of “brain dead” - what initiates a thought?

 

are thoughts initiated by a thought?

 

or is it a stirring of something else?

 

The physical is preceded by the subtle bodies - it is not the other way around. The gross physical body is not the cause nor the house of thought - it is a relative interface and nothing more. It is encumbered light until it is not.

 

The brilliant light which it can attain is preceded in the subtle bodies and in that which has always been.

 

Thoughts are more like leaves.

 

Looking further, one finds...

 

Doctors believed she had suffered irreversible brain damage and was on the point of death, but it later came to light that she was in fact in a deep drug-induced coma.

 

Seems more about clueless doctors and people using the term brain dead.

 

A thought can be traced back to initial point of conception.  Sort of like a "door" of manifestation where the energy of it is initiated. Well beyond the conscious aspects of mind for most, that is why many think they have a "quiet mind" when it is really just quiet at the conscious level and they have not dug deeper into the subconscious aspects of mind.

 

But I would agree with what I think that you are saying that... Light body > Energy body > Physical body

 

The greater the "clarity" or complete integration with sort of pulling the subconscious into the realm of conscious, the more this is realized.  Kashmir Shaivism describes this well as beyond the local body mind, it is more like a universal (or shared mind).  As as things are cleared and integrated, one becomes and is known to drive all (Siva).

 

1.19.  śaktisandhāne śarīrotpattiḥ

By infusing his energy of will the embodiment of that which is willed occurs at once.

 

-Shiva Sutras

 

 

[Spotless]

11 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Looking further, one finds...

 

Doctors believed she had suffered irreversible brain damage and was on the point of death, but it later came to light that she was in fact in a deep drug-induced coma.

 

Seems more about clueless doctors and people using the term brain dead.

You have looked for the examples that support your theory - but if you are going to be fair quote the many that do not.

[Jeff]

4 minutes ago, Spotless said:

You have looked for the examples that support your theory - but if you are going to be fair quote the many that do not.

 

Ok, here are the a bunch more of them from your link...

 

Taylor was put into a medically induced coma in hopes it would help her heal. But the prognosis was poor.

Taylor remained unresponsive for a week. Then, in the early morning hours of Sept. 17, she suffered a brain hemorrhage.

Doctors and nurses fought to save Taylor's life. But at the end of a grueling session, Taylor's brain sank part way into her spinal canal.

No one comes back from that, the doctors told Taylor's mother, Stacy, and her father, Chuck Hale.

 

- Actually a coma...  Next,

 

Although a team of four physicians insisted that his son was “brain-dead” following the wreck, Thorpe’s father enlisted the help of a general practitioner and a neurologist, who demonstrated that his son still had brain wave activity.

 

- Clueless doctors, as he really always had brain wave activity.  Next, 

 

After two weeks, he allowed them to shut off the ventilator, but insisted that a breathing tube be inserted in her mouth so that she could continue breathing on her own. 

Three days later, Gloria Cruz defied the medical experts and woke from her coma. According to her husband, she is now alert, mobile, and on her way to recovery.

 

Obvious brain activity because she was breathing and was simply a coma again.  Next,

 

In accordance with her own wishes, doctors had removed Rae’s breathing tube and were waiting for her to die. She was taken home from the hospital, and while friends and family gathered to say a last good bye, Kupferschmidt’s daughter Lisa Sturm used an ice cube to wet her mother’s dry lips. When her mother sucked on the ice cube, she thought it was only an instinctive reaction. She said, "I knew suckling is a very basic brain stem function, so I didn’t get real excited. But when I did it again she just about sucked the ice cube out of my hand, and I looked at my aunt and said, ‘Did you see that?’"

 

Able to notice and actually suck on an ice cube, so not even a deep coma. 

 

Anyways, no need for me to continue on this point.  Thanks for the discussion and have a good weekend.  

 

 

[Spotless]

35 minutes ago, Jeff said:

A thought can be traced back to initial point of conception.  Sort of like a "door" of manifestation where the energy of it is initiated. Well beyond the conscious aspects of mind for most, that is why many think they have a "quiet mind" when it is really just quiet at the conscious level and they have not dug deeper into the subconscious aspects of mind.

 

But I would agree with what I think that you are saying that... Light body > Energy body > Physical body

 

The greater the "clarity" or complete integration with sort of pulling the subconscious into the realm of conscious, the more this is realized.  Kashmir Shaivism describes this well as beyond the local body mind, it is more like a universal (or shared mind).  As as things are cleared and integrated, one becomes and is known to drive all (Siva).

 

1.19.  śaktisandhāne śarīrotpattiḥ

By infusing his energy of will the embodiment of that which is willed occurs at once.

 

-Shiva Sutras

Now we are entering a departure where there is some agreement.

 

Your prior arguement has been from local mind and it is untrue.

 

In this new arena the use of conscious and subconscious is an unfortunate holdover to language of almost a century ago. And “mind” in this higher sense is far better stated as Emotive Awareness or Higher Emotion.The word “mind” points in directions that in no way resemble what is being pointed to here.

 

1.19.  śaktisandhāne śarīrotpattiḥ

By infusing his energy of will the embodiment of that which is willed occurs at once.

 

-Shiva Sutra

 

”will” is a reasonable term in use here but “known certainty” is much closer.

 

 

“Well beyond the conscious aspects of mind for most, that is why many think they have a "quiet mind" when it is really just quiet at the conscious level and they have not dug deeper into the subconscious aspects of mind.”

 

In Awakening dreams stop.

 

 

 

Edited April 12, 2019 by Spotless

[silent thunder]

Wow, compelling concepts being shared; a nice gift to wake up and discover. 

 

All I am able to share are a few open ended questions that arose while reading.

They have no firm answers in my awareness; but I'm compelled to share them out of deep curiosity for the insights such minds as are present may be willing to share.

 

What is the origin of thought?

Where does thought occur?

Does it seem there exists a thinker, separate from thought?

Are thoughts and bodies separate?

Are thought and meditation mutually exclusive?

 

Perhaps a new thread if this seems too ranging...

[Jeff]

2 hours ago, Spotless said:

Now we are entering a departure where there is some agreement.

 

Your prior arguement has been from local mind and it is untrue.

 

In this new arena the use of conscious and subconscious is an unfortunate holdover to language of almost a century ago. And “mind” in this higher sense is far better stated as Emotive Awareness or Higher Emotion.The word “mind” points in directions that in no way resemble what is being pointed to here.

 

1.19.  śaktisandhāne śarīrotpattiḥ

By infusing his energy of will the embodiment of that which is willed occurs at once.

 

-Shiva Sutra

 

”will” is a reasonable term in use here but “known certainty” is much closer.

 

 

“Well beyond the conscious aspects of mind for most, that is why many think they have a "quiet mind" when it is really just quiet at the conscious level and they have not dug deeper into the subconscious aspects of mind.”

 

In Awakening dreams stop.

 

 

My prior argument has been from local mind and is untrue?  Is that you simply saying that you disagree with me?

 

"will" is the correct word, but you could use the word "intent" if you prefer.  "known certainty" would give the sutra a completely different meaning and be completely out of context.  

 

And to your dream stopping, guess it depends on what you define as the dream, but...

 

3.45. bhūyaḥ syātpratimīlanam

This yogī simultaneously and repeatedly experiences the revealing state and the concealing state of the objective world.

 

Have a good weekend.  

Edited April 12, 2019 by Jeff

[dwai]

In terms of thoughts, my understanding is very clear. Anything that has a name and/or form in the mind is a thought. If there is not a name and/or form involved, it is no longer a thought. There is an entire realm of consciousness that operates beyond thought. I keep coming back to 'antahkarana' (of Indic traditions) vs the western idea of the 'mind' over and over again.

 

This page does a decent job of pointing out the difference --

 

http://tripurashakti.com/antahkarana/