Pain in the scapular region caused by incorrect posture in ZZ?

[gatsu]

Hi all,

 

I am new to the forum and would appreciate if you would have any advice for me.

 

I have had pain or discomfort in my right shoulder for easily 15 years now due to me carrying my back pack full of books solely on my right shoulder for my 10 years of academic study (I am only 35). It would come and go but my plan was to eventually heal, at least partially, my shoulder with ZZ.

 

I have been practicing ZZ daily for a year and half now. I was practicing Wuji and holding the ball from the book by Mark Cohen, keeping in mind some advice from Master Lam Kam Chuen "don't worry, pain will go eventually".

 

And indeed, as I was able to put more time into it I felt my arms lighter while holding the ball, felt my right shoulder as if "unlocked" and more free to move than the left one and recently felt that I had a much better balance on a single foot, although I did not specifically train for it. I have also gained in neck mobility: I can turn my head to the right to look behind me much more easily than I could few months ago.

 

In the recent weeks I could hold the ball for about an hour or so without forcing too much, 2 times a day. 

 

Now, recently I have noticed that my shoulder discomfort has come back but instead of being located close to the shoulder where it used to be, it has gone down to the right scapular region. I can feel pain in the region joining the scapula to the upper back and in the region joining with the rib cage and also tension on the right side of the neck.

 

Just to mention that during the practice the pain tends to be actually less severe. The pain slowly just comes as the day passes and as I am sitting at my desk staring at a computer screen all day (on a laptop in fact). In spite of that I do have some physical activity as I walk 1 or 2h per day at least.

 

My question is the following:

 

Is this pain a good sign or should I look at it as a warning sign that I need to change my practice? For example my posture could be rubbish but I don't know about it; unfortunately I don't have a teacher. I can only say that I have always felt unsure about the right alignment for my upper back...

 

Any piece of advice would be much appreciated! Many thanks.

 

 

 

 

 

[Fa Xin]

Some thoughts that may or may not help...

 

* It may not be the ZZ that's causing the pain - especially because you say the pain is less severe while standing.

 

Think about how you relax and correct your posture during ZZ practice - do you do this during your day while sitting at a computer? Computer stuff is notorious for wrecking posture and the thoracic spine... many people deal with kyphosis and pain because of it. Doesn't matter if you do physical activity for 1 hour a day, if your sitting habits are 40 hours a week... the bad outweighs the good.

 

My recommendation is to incorporate some basic yoga stretches for the back and shoulders, as well as perhaps a foam roller. 

 

It's hard to gauge your standing without being in person, but if you have any tai chi teachers close by, think about emailing them and setting up a 1 hour session for them to critique your posture.  ZZ and alignments are kind of Tai Chi's thing, and they would be able to help you with it.

Edited April 11, 2019 by Fa Xin

[dwai]

I'd look to refine the alignment more. Typically I found that even after years of ZZ, it is possible to fall into slightly misaligned ways of standing (our sense of balance etc keeps changing very subtly all the time).  It is hard without actually looking at your alignments to make any suggestions. 

 

+1 to what @Fa Xin recommend. Find a good teacher and have them refine your posture. Second best is to review it with someone over Skype.  But to summarize, too often I find that what people think of as "properly aligned" is actually, slightly misaligned, with the weight leaning backward. In order to counter that, a slightly exaggerated leaning forward from the hips is required. This requires the chin to be tucked properly and the muscles in the upper chest to drop downward slightly. 

 

Also, always seek to suspend from the martial crown. That will naturally tuck your chin properly.

 

[rideforever]

- you could film yourself doing it

 

- when I feel there is a danger of being mis-aligned then I change things up to get out of any stuckness, either :
> more relax, more dissolve

> BK Frantzis dissolving on that point, or other techniques working on the area

> BK Frantzis cloud hands, i.e. gentle movements to open things up

> asymmetric postures (left and right), to open things up

> silk reeling  i.e. gentle movements to open things up

 

as for proper alignment .... one way of doing it is with more spontaneous in it ... allowing the body to vibrate move jerk more ... and hold less structure

[Toni]

I would recommend you to relax the area, and also do some scapular exercises, like "stretching the qi":

 

 

[escott]

21 hours ago, Toni said:

I would recommend you to relax the area, and also do some scapular exercises, like "stretching the qi":

 

 

 

As a practitioner of Zhineng, I've found Gina Lim's videos to be very helpful. There are also shoulder exercises in the 'Body & Mind' method. Also, I think wall squats are helpful for correcting alignment issues all over the body. Perhaps adopting the Three Centers Merge posture for ZZ might help, too.

Edited April 12, 2019 by escott

[Toni]

20 minutes ago, escott said:

 

As a practitioner of Zhineng, I've going Gina Lim's videos to be very helpful. There are also shoulder exercises in the 'Body & Mind' method. Also, I think wall squats are helpful for correcting alignment issues all over the body. Perhaps adopting the Three Centers Merge posture for ZZ might help, too.

would you mind to tell us about these shoulder exercises in the level 2 of zhi neng? i just did level 1 and i remember very well my shoulders hurt me ...

[dawei]

I moved this here as in General it will disappear in short order and hard to ever find again.  This seems a better place where we often talk about healthy habits and this seems to fit for a practice or form issue.

 

My advise is to go get an xray of the shoulder because if there is any structural change you may need PT to help get that in order first. 

 

I've had a nasty right shoulder for about 6 years and finally went to have it looked at.   Turns out my upper bicep tendon where it attaches to the shoulder has a slight tear... no amount of exercise or PT is going to 'fix' that tear, only surgery will.    But PT did get me to find exercises to strengthen the shoulder without hurting it (ie: identifying the motions that cause pain and not doing those as part of PT).

 

After some strengthening, or even during, some forms will likely be good to keep the tendons knowing how to relax and be pliable and not just strong.  

[escott]

9 minutes ago, Toni said:

would you mind to tell us about these shoulder exercises in the level 2 of zhi neng? i just did level 1 and i remember very well my shoulders hurt me ...

 

http://www.zhinengqigong.org/methods/level2.html

 

Step 2 is specific to the shoulders.

 

What kind of shoulder pain are you experiencing? Even though I am a weightlifter I have experienced discomfort in my deltoids when doing Lift Qi Up, Pour Qi Down. Same for doing Master LKC's style of ZZ standing at the stake. In both cases, though, I think it is because I failed to relax. The arms should float up and not be moved by muscular tension.

[escott]

14 minutes ago, dawei said:

My advise is to go get an xray of the shoulder because if there is any structural change you may need PT to help get that in order first. 

 

Many years ago I sought out a muscle therapist. I fell backwards and landed on my shoulder playing volleyball. I could not lift my right arm straight in front (like changing the radio station in the car) without a shooting pain going down my arm. This lasted for two years.

 

After 3 sessions with a muscle therapist I was completely fixed.

Edited April 11, 2019 by escott

[thelerner]

The above answers have good advice.  Here's a different avenue of attack. 

Try lying on a Spoonk mat.  They're kinda like yoga mats but with thousands of 1/4 inch plastic spikes.  At first lying on hurts, then the muscles relax into it giving a deep sense of release.  It might be hitting pressure and acupuncture points too.

https://www.amazon.com/Spoonk-Relief-Cotton-Regular-Acupressure/dp/B00GEN1HIQ/ref=sr_1_2?hvadid=177779113425&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9021485&hvnetw=g&hvpos=1t1&hvqmt=e&hvrand=13761809248443353969&hvtargid=kwd-11354736122&keywords=spoonk&qid=1555008357&s=gateway&sr=8-2&th=1

 

I've had one for years, like it and recommend it to people who have back pain.  It may not give permanent pain relief, I've been told strengthening and flexibility (yoga) are the best long term solutions, but for temporary relief it is very good.

Edited April 11, 2019 by thelerner

[gatsu]

Many thanks for all the replies and different advices. I think I will go for stretches/yoga and maybe replace ZZ  with slow movements like silk reeling for at least 2 weeks without computer (as I will be in holidays).

 

Just to specify at least my experience of the day, it doesn't hurt while doing ZZ but it seems to hurt after, especially if I do ZZ in the morning like at 5am then by 9pm my back feels very tense. The pain also completely stops when I lay down on my bed and appears totally absent when I get up in the morning...for now.

 

I will also try to find a teacher in my area but I live in a quite rural area of the UK...so eastern practices are not quite common here.

 

[Andy_W]

All the above advice is worth a go...and try moving your scapular closer together by 1cm or so as the arms may be pulling the scapular to far forward. You'll have to experiment for comfort but the elbows should have a sense of not just going forward but also to the side. 2 hours a day is a lot and static postures will make you strong but also stiff if not balanced with movement exercises...imo 1 hour is plenty. 

[Toni]

I don't think ZZ makes you stiff, it relaxes and soften all the body if performed correctly

[escott]

What is your warmup routine? I had to briefly suspended my ZZ practice because of knee pain. What was I going wrong? Instead of doing knee circles, hip circles, and arm circles I switched to doing Ba Duan Jin for a warmup. Bad idea. I was spending to much time in a static horse stance.

 

Is your pain deep or more toward the surface? If it is toward the surface then myofascial release or trigger point muscle therapy might help. I also work in front of a computer all day and this has given me much relief.

 

I see that you (the OP) are in the UK. When I went to that muscle therapist, that I mentioned in a previous post, being the kind of person I am I asked a lot of questions. I asked what style of therapy he was using. He said it was British Sports Therapy. Also, look up the Three Monkeys School of Qigong ( .http://www.3monkeysqigong.co.uk/map_of_teachers/ ) to find a teacher. I have corresponded with John Millar. I am taking his course on Udemy. He was very kind with his responses.

Edited April 12, 2019 by escott

[Toni]

25 minutes ago, escott said:

What is your warmup routine? I had to briefly suspended my ZZ practice because of knee pain. What was I going wrong? Instead of doing knee circles, hip circles, and arm circles I switched to doing Ba Duan Jin for a warmup. Bad idea. I was spending to much time in a static horse stance.

 

Is your pain deep or more toward the surface? If it is toward the surface then myofascial release or trigger point muscle therapy might help. I also work in front of a computer all day and this has given me much relief.

 

I see that you are in the UK. When I went to that muscle therapist, that I mentioned in a previous post, being the kind of person I am I asked a lot of questions. I asked what style of therapy he was using. He said it was British Sports Therapy. Also, look up the Three Monkeys School of Qigong ( .http://www.3monkeysqigong.co.uk/map_of_teachers/ ) to find a teacher. I have corresponded with John Millar. I am taking his course on Udemy. He was very kind with his responses.

knee pain? make sure not to overpass the feet with your knees by bending them too much. Anyway, knee pain in ZZ is probably due to weak quadriceps. Train them, wall squats are a good idea for this

[Andy_W]

4 hours ago, Toni said:

I don't think ZZ makes you stiff, it relaxes and soften all the body if performed correctly

It strengthens and thickens ligaments and tendons...needs to be balanced with loosening exercises.

[Toni]

yes, correct, it is necessary to stretch the legs always

[gatsu]

14 hours ago, Toni said:

I don't think ZZ makes you stiff, it relaxes and soften all the body if performed correctly

 

Well I think the whole point of my post was that I was doubting this last and crucial important part in your sentence.

[gatsu]

13 hours ago, escott said:

What is your warmup routine? I had to briefly suspended my ZZ practice because of knee pain. What was I going wrong? Instead of doing knee circles, hip circles, and arm circles I switched to doing Ba Duan Jin for a warmup. Bad idea. I was spending to much time in a static horse stance.

 

Is your pain deep or more toward the surface? If it is toward the surface then myofascial release or trigger point muscle therapy might help. I also work in front of a computer all day and this has given me much relief.

 

I see that you (the OP) are in the UK. When I went to that muscle therapist, that I mentioned in a previous post, being the kind of person I am I asked a lot of questions. I asked what style of therapy he was using. He said it was British Sports Therapy. Also, look up the Three Monkeys School of Qigong ( .http://www.3monkeysqigong.co.uk/map_of_teachers/ ) to find a teacher. I have corresponded with John Millar. I am taking his course on Udemy. He was very kind with his responses.

 

Lack of warm up can also not help indeed. Since I tend to do it as soon as I get out of bed, I barely do two, three Ba Dua Jin movements for warmup and assume I am ready to go...maybe not then. Thanks for the specific tips related to the UK, I will definitely look into it, especially this Udemy course.

[Toni]

My advice is to strenghten and stretch your quads. Healthy and strong quads will protect your knees. Also try maybe to bend less your knees at least until pain is gone

Edited April 13, 2019 by Toni