How to become less blind

[Starjumper]

I think the darkness within darkness statement is relating to the previous statement which has to do with having desires or being desireles.

 

Do you desire to be desireles?  One can see the manifestations and one can see the mystery.

 

But there's this great new invention called yin and yang and it turns out that some people can see both the manifestations and the mystery.

 

So it may look like darkness within darkness to some if they can't see both sides of the coin at the same time. 

 

or something

 

[freeform]

4 hours ago, Wayfarer said:

my way, that directs people as best as I can to the Truth that is right before them.

 

If this is a truth that is fully realised in you as you speak then you have every right to say what you please.

 

Just tell us that you’re an Awakened sage and I’ll be happy to defer to you. Otherwise you’re misappropriating the words of sages to fit some aim devised by your personality. 

[Miffymog]

1 hour ago, freeform said:

 

If this is a truth that is fully realised in you as you speak then you have every right to say what you please.

 

Just tell us that you’re an Awakened sage and I’ll be happy to defer to you. Otherwise you’re misappropriating the words of sages to fit some aim devised by your personality. 

 

I can see the place where you're coming from freeform, however, there are many different paths to enlightenment.

 

Now I know this website is the 'Daobums' and not the 'Buddhistbums', so there is a lot to be said for representing for a Daoist approach.

 

However, some Buddhist approaches do say we all have the Buddhist Nature inside of us, it's just a case of discovering / revealing it - which is done primarily through mediation practice, but also by being virtuous and taking refuge in the three jewels.

 

It is not uncommon to suggest that this nature is already inside of us, we just need to discover it. And this statement does not in anyway exclude the hard work involved in seeking it.

 

I know that some Daoist methods lay out a very clear, challenging path to travel, and that is fine.

 

However, there are some Buddhist approaches which depend strongly on the faith that 'I can be enlightened, and I will be enlightened'. This again goes along the lines of the Buddhist nature/potential being in side of us already.

 

Now - do I really need to be enlightened to make the above statement?[no] Is it any less true given the fact I'm not enlightened? [no] Do I have any right to say it?[yes]

 

Some Daoist paths are really quite strict, but there are other paths and attitudes that are quite valid too.

[freeform]

1 hour ago, Miffymog said:

It is not uncommon to suggest that this nature is already inside of us, we just need to discover it.

 

Yes you’re right.

 

Think of this statement not as a statement passing on ‘information’ but as a kind of medicine that has an effect.

 

It works when the one saying it is saying it whilst fully present and transmitting the light of her Devine Self. 

 

This, as a medicine, can have a profound effect. It bypasses the logical mind and hits deep (if the transmission is there).

 

However when you read it as an Instagram meme, or as an utterance from someone who’s not radiating this Divine Light - then it’s simply a meaningless misappropriation. It lacks both information and it lacks the medicinal effect and it panders to our preferences.

 

When I was sitting with a very well respected Buddhist teacher in retreat in Burma, one of his students asked why there are so few westerners that really get the Dharma (I was the only white fellow in his inner-door group - but he had dozens in his main centre).

 

His answer was literally - they don’t work hard enough. They all seem to think they’re already enlightened.

[Miffymog]

 

 

8 hours ago, freeform said:

 

Yes you’re right.

 

Think of this statement not as a statement passing on ‘information’ but as a kind of medicine that has an effect.

 

It works when the one saying it is saying it whilst fully present and transmitting the light of her Devine Self. 

 

This, as a medicine, can have a profound effect. It bypasses the logical mind and hits deep (if the transmission is there).

 

However when you read it as an Instagram meme, or as an utterance from someone who’s not radiating this Divine Light - then it’s simply a meaningless misappropriation. It lacks both information and it lacks the medicinal effect and it panders to our preferences.

 

When I was sitting with a very well respected Buddhist teacher in retreat in Burma, one of his students asked why there are so few westerners that really get the Dharma (I was the only white fellow in his inner-door group - but he had dozens in his main centre).

 

His answer was literally - they don’t work hard enough. They all seem to think they’re already enlightened.

 

We'll just have to have different opinions on this one I think. There are times I have quite a strong faith in Christ. I haven't been told he exists by anyone who has the Devine light in them, and yet this belief can provide great strength.

 

There have been times on a retreat when I have been told that the Buddha nature is already in me. Again, the person telling me this was not enlightened, and yet this belief would significantly improve the quality of the subsequent meditations.

 

Would it have had more effect if the person telling me was enlightened, of course, but the belief would still have to be ultimately mine. And the idea that the transmission of the Buddhist teachings through non-enlightened people is miss-appropriation is something I can't really agree with I'm afraid.

 

Interesting discussions though 😀

[Fa Xin]

Wow great conversation!

 

Our motivation to “evolve” should come from within, anyway.

 

There were many who rejected Jesus, despite the fact they were in the presence of a Master, they did not know it.  We see in people what we perceive to have inside of ourselves. Will anyone who does not acknowledge they are divine.... see the divine in someone else? 

 

I think both viewpoints are correct, depending on how you look at things. The cosmic joke being the paradox of all things. 

 

 

Edited April 30, 2019 by Fa Xin

[freeform]

13 hours ago, Miffymog said:

We'll just have to have different opinions on this one I think.

 

Oh I’m not looking for agreement

 

I’m just looking to see if I’m getting my point across or not. And by seeing what you’re feeding back to me, I can tell you’re not - not quite

 

13 hours ago, Miffymog said:

There have been times on a retreat when I have been told that the Buddha nature is already in me.

 

‘The Buddha nature isn’t in you - there is no ‘in’ to begin with, there is no ‘out’ - there is nothing to be inside of and there is nothing to be outside of - Buddha nature can only be everywhere at once.

 

The Buddha nature can’t be inside you - because there is no ‘you’ - there is no ‘not you’ - there is only one everythingness. That’s the true Buddha nature.’

 

You get it?

 

When I talk like this, I’m misappropriating deep spiritual truths.

 

It’s misappropriation because I’m not coming at this from an awakened perspective, but from my little ‘self’. I’m just aping an awakened sage’s manner of speaking.

 

It’s negating what you said without the payback of actual transmission of truth - just the pretence of truth. And not just that, it  contains no useful information.

 

If I said “an awakened teacher once told me that there is no ‘you’ because there is no ‘not you’ and all one” - then it’s not misappropriation. It’s passing on information.

 

You can pass on Jesus’s words to me and that would be fine.

 

But if you talked as if you are Jesus... personally, I’d just cringe... You?

[Wayfarer]

Realistically, if a person who experiences enlightenment says that they are enlightened then there is a contradiction because the experience of enlightenment is to realise that the self is also everything that they are looking at.  This is not exactly the same as saying there is no "self" - this is what I meant by the double-darkness.  As the One is all things then it what I consider to be me is IT and what I think of as not-me is also IT.  But to say that one is enlightened is okay.  For a person to have fear of saying that is also okay.  It just happens one way or the other and we observe it.

 

So, I can say that Buddha nature is inside me and it is neither right nor wrong.  It can be experienced in this way, and equally it can be experienced "outside" of the self.  If we think one way is right and another is wrong then we are stuck in a view.  So, what does it mean to not be in a view?  To know that everything is an expression of it.  Oh so new age huh?  So, sage-like huh?  Ha ha!

 

If I sound like some old sage, it is only because I am explaining the same thing that they are experiencing.  As it happens, I had the experience first and then returned to Daoism after 15 years or so of not looking at it.  At the time, I had been practising with a Buddhist group (Thich Nhat Hanh's tradition) and anyone who has practised with this tradition will know that there isn't a lot of talk about enlightenment, it is mostly a group chat about mindfulness and overcoming suffering.

I did experience enlightenment.  I can "choose" to be in that state or be normal.  People get uncomfortable quickly if I am being in that state around them.  My girlfriend was once belittling me about my spiritual practice, so I thought, okay, I will live one day without thought, without comment and just be.  She then got angry "where are you?" "why aren't you bothered by anything?" "what has become of you, it's like you are not here." etc

If I lived in an ashram then I could be in this state all day.  But with a full-time job, busy family life, the needs of kids... you simply have to deal with life.  You have to pay the bills.  You have to feed and clothe people and pay school fees and car bills etc.

 

I have helped one other person to experience the same, and this is why after several years of discussion we have decided to begin a new Daoist school, in the same sense that Wang Chongyang created Quanzhen; to help people "become less blind" which is what caught my attention with this particular forum thread.

It's not possible to prove awakening.  I don't have the need to either because it is really unimportant.  In many ways my life was better before the experience of it.  For several years I lost interest in everything.  I ended my marriage, I ended my job, I stopped doing the things I had once loved.  One single moment turned my life on its head.  Yet, it is beautiful. My god is it beautiful.  Doesn't mean I'm a saint.  

 

Now, if we look to modern people who are "enlightened" we do mostly turn to neo-advaita - Mooji, Eckhart Tolle, I can't think of others because right now I have three kids laughing at a very loud "Gravity Falls" episode and my girlfriend playing some loud rap music.  Even so, I feel the stillness, the silence, it is within me, it is how we "guard the yin" in Daoism, it is being aware of the Root. If I look to the curtains, the chairs, the children I see the same presence, I feel it and I know that while there is "me" there is "Me" - but normally I'm not thinking about it.  There came a point where this sank somehow, where it dropped away and there was simply looking.  Almost like a daydream.  Seeing without thinking feels like being cleaned from the inside, and the more I do it the easier it becomes.  It fills my day with a calmness.  It keeps me settled when in times I would have panicked.  But what is it good for, nothing.

Now, whether a reader likes this or not and accepts it or not, it is the Truth as I see it.  So, I may have sounded like Jesus or Lao Tzu but I was using their quotes and writings to explain these points.  Now I am not.  

There is something in life that is untouched, untroubled, not-thinking, and the more I experience it the more settled and at ease, I feel.  I also sense the energy of IT coming in and out of my day.  I have realised how it affects what "I" do, how it works to balance things.  Well, in essence there can be no balance in something that is one.

I see it like this... there is this thing that I saw.  I felt it within me and looked within it and saw that there isn't a within, it is endless, it is still yet vibrant.  Still, I didn't know.  Then one day I happened to glance up at the sky and I saw, felt the same presence in the sky and in that very second I realised it.  Everything is actually One thing.  There is no gap, there is not connection, we are not all part of something or interconnected, we are IT ITself and that's it.  And it is Beautiful.  If it were not here I could not be discussing this with you right now.

And this is the play of it.  What we see around us is how its vibrant energy (qi) has expressed itself.  No reason for it, but it is just unfolding, in apparent harmony and with apparent opposites.  And we are that already.  The peace we seek is within us already and is beyond us already.  It is just being missed.  And the only point I have been trying to make just as a simple response to the original post is this - you CAN study and make effort, you CAN follow precepts and read the classics, you CAN do all of these things BUT you don't need to.  It is already present within and around you and the potential to realise it is always available to you, whether that is in the silence present between a crow's call, or the still presence in flower, or the vibrant presence burning in a bush, or in flowers, in still water, in venus, in the sky - all of these things have been known to cause awakening.

 

It is already there.  It appears to be covered.  And what covers it the most is our thinking, and our little "me" that is telling itself stories about how things should be, how enlightened beings are somehow different than normal beings, how the higher self is better than the lower self and the confusion over duality and non-duality.

 

Nothing can be said truthfully because everything is true.  Nothing can be explained from an awakened self because even lies, threats, anger, ignorance come from the same THING, nothing is outside of it.

 

So, now I am leaving this conversation.  No doubt some will say I am ducking out of it, or I am trying to appear in one way or another.  Why do I bother writing?  Why do I bother trying to help others when I know they are the same One and nothing makes a difference?  Simply because I can. 

 

Rest easy folks and good luck!

 

Edited May 1, 2019 by Wayfarer

[freeform]

36 minutes ago, Wayfarer said:

I did experience enlightenment.

 

Ok! - finally we get to the crux of this discussion  - at least you’re direct enough to say it... others just allude

 

You probably also realise that this puts you on the spot a little. (Not surprised you left the discussion)

 

1 hour ago, Wayfarer said:

It's not possible to prove awakening.  I don't have the need to either because it is really unimportant.

 

Despite what you say, enlightenment (and pretty much every attainment along the way) is provable. And in fact in most classical lineages it must be ‘proved’ and recognised by your peers. This is both for your own sake (to overcome any possibility of delusion) and for the sake of the purity of the lineage.

 

For example my teachers tell me that it’s relatively common to glimpse Yuan Shen (or the first Jhanna) and mistakenly think that you’re now awakened or enlightened. Because it is a transformative experience. It changes lives. But according to my teachers this is the start - abiding in this sort of oneness is what meditation actually is. This is the beginning of meditation practice

 

I’ve been very fortunate to be introduced to a number of classical lineage teachers - both Daoist and Buddhist. The process was always the same. Firstly there is a formal introduction by someone the teacher trusts.

 

Next I was tested - to see if I had the potential to be a student. The tests were generally very tough and gruelling (such as sitting in perfect posture and relative stillness for 4hrs in busy places) - but not always - sometimes just some tea . And I certainly was not accepted by all of them.

 

The next step was meeting with the teacher and senior students - this usually starts with a specific description of the teacher’s own attainment and who it was verified by and usually including a demonstration by them and/or their students (such as a transmission of a state of consciousness or demonstration of skill in Qi or something else).

 

This is the etiquette that is followed with classical lineage teachers in Asia. The value of this process is that everything is black and white - there’s little in terms of wise words shared - just simple action.

 

1 hour ago, Wayfarer said:

Nothing can be said truthfully because everything is true. 

 

That’s simply not the case in classical lineages. There are very obvious black and white truths and falsehoods. This is reflected in all the classics.

 

1 hour ago, Wayfarer said:

you CAN study and make effort, you CAN follow precepts and read the classics, you CAN do all of these things BUT you don't need to.  It is already present within and around you

 

Thousands of generations of geniuses dedicating their whole life to spiritual cultivation... creating all these useless classics, unnecessary paths of development and pointless lineages when all they had to do is realise that it’s all present already. Poor wretches. Or maybe you just haven quite grasped their teaching yet.

 

I realise what I’m saying is disconcerting and maybe a bit harsh, but I’m honestly not trying to be rude or trying to embarrass anyone - or even downplaying anyone’s level of realisation or attainment. I’m just pointing out that maybe there is more to the path than they realise - that as amazing as their realisation is, that the bar of ‘enlightenment’ is set far far higher than what we may think.

[thursday]

How many different lineages of Daoism or Buddhism are there? Enlightenment may be seen as something different depending on the group of teachers. On a forum like this one, where many different practitioners from various traditions come together to share, it's only normal that there will be some misunderstandings.

 

I don't know what is the best system, but where I can perceive transmission that seems to indicate a "highly attained being", others may not perceive much. Or do they consciously or not, not want to see? Maybe resulting from time and energy and so on spent already in a specific direction for many years?

[freeform]

1 hour ago, thursday said:

Enlightenment may be seen as something different depending on the group of teachers.

 

Yes - you’re quite right. 

 

It also brings up the uncomfortable question of whether all lineages are equal. Are some empty and lost the ‘root’. Have some succumbed to an error along the generations? 

 

I can only share the perspective of where I’m coming from - primarily a line in the Daoist Longmen Pai, and a line of Thai/Burmese ‘forest tradition’ Buddhists. And this is after over 5 years of full-time searching.

 

1 hour ago, thursday said:

where I can perceive transmission that seems to indicate a "highly attained being", others may not perceive much.

 

Imagine that at every stage of attainment you grow a real, physical horn on your head - with a blood supply, fully visible and obvious, xrayable etc. 

 

Ok - it’s not horns (unfortunately?) - but within many traditions the signposts are literally as blatant, physical and obvious as that.

 

There is no guesswork. There is no question of the perceiver having a certain sensitivity. If you have eyes to see, if you have hands to feel or tongue to taste (ok it’s getting even weirder!) - then it is easily perceptible. It’s obvious to everyone who knows what to look for.

[Fa Xin]

45 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

Yes - you’re quite right. 

 

It also brings up the uncomfortable question of whether all lineages are equal. Are some empty and lost the ‘root’. Have some succumbed to an error along the generations? 

 

I can only share the perspective of where I’m coming from - primarily a line in the Daoist Longmen Pai, and a line of Thai/Burmese ‘forest tradition’ Buddhists. And this is after over 5 years of full-time searching.

 

 

Imagine that at every stage of attainment you grow a real, physical horn on your head - with a blood supply, fully visible and obvious, xrayable etc. 

 

Ok - it’s not horns (unfortunately?) - but within many traditions the signposts are literally as blatant, physical and obvious as that.

 

There is no guesswork. There is no question of the perceiver having a certain sensitivity. If you have eyes to see, if you have hands to feel or tongue to taste (ok it’s getting even weirder!) - then it is easily perceptible. It’s obvious to everyone who knows what to look for.

 

Would you mind sharing the signs that you would look for?

[Wayfarer]

4 hours ago, freeform said:

 

Ok! - finally we get to the crux of this discussion  - at least you’re direct enough to say it... others just allude

 

You probably also realise that this puts you on the spot a little. (Not surprised you left the discussion)

 

 

Despite what you say, enlightenment (and pretty much every attainment along the way) is provable. And in fact in most classical lineages it must be ‘proved’ and recognised by your peers. This is both for your own sake (to overcome any possibility of delusion) and for the sake of the purity of the lineage.

 

For example my teachers tell me that it’s relatively common to glimpse Yuan Shen (or the first Jhanna) and mistakenly think that you’re now awakened or enlightened. Because it is a transformative experience. It changes lives. But according to my teachers this is the start - abiding in this sort of oneness is what meditation actually is. This is the beginning of meditation practice

 

I’ve been very fortunate to be introduced to a number of classical lineage teachers - both Daoist and Buddhist. The process was always the same. Firstly there is a formal introduction by someone the teacher trusts.

 

Next I was tested - to see if I had the potential to be a student. The tests were generally very tough and gruelling (such as sitting in perfect posture and relative stillness for 4hrs in busy places) - but not always - sometimes just some tea . And I certainly was not accepted by all of them.

 

The next step was meeting with the teacher and senior students - this usually starts with a specific description of the teacher’s own attainment and who it was verified by and usually including a demonstration by them and/or their students (such as a transmission of a state of consciousness or demonstration of skill in Qi or something else).

 

This is the etiquette that is followed with classical lineage teachers in Asia. The value of this process is that everything is black and white - there’s little in terms of wise words shared - just simple action.

 

 

That’s simply not the case in classical lineages. There are very obvious black and white truths and falsehoods. This is reflected in all the classics.

 

 

Thousands of generations of geniuses dedicating their whole life to spiritual cultivation... creating all these useless classics, unnecessary paths of development and pointless lineages when all they had to do is realise that it’s all present already. Poor wretches. Or maybe you just haven quite grasped their teaching yet.

 

I realise what I’m saying is disconcerting and maybe a bit harsh, but I’m honestly not trying to be rude or trying to embarrass anyone - or even downplaying anyone’s level of realisation or attainment. I’m just pointing out that maybe there is more to the path than they realise - that as amazing as their realisation is, that the bar of ‘enlightenment’ is set far far higher than what we may think.

 

 

I agree with most of what you have said here.  In Daoism is not called awakening or enlightenment but "attaining the Dao" which I suspect the word "attaining" is a wrong translation.  So, I feel that what I experienced was awakening to the Dao and what then happens (in my experience) is that a life of conditioning begins to unravel, and although from memory there isn't anything new added to the wisdom gained in the "moment" it can be that it has to be lived to be "known" and when this is done and a condition is dropped, I realise that I knew this in the "moment" and I have returned to it again.  Hard to explain really.

 

Still, I think there is only one wisdom that we are talking about whether it be Daoist, Hindu or Christian.  They are like boats on the same water and people argue as to which is best to take you to the ocean.  

 

And despite what I have said I'm no nearer that wisdom than anyone else.

 

Go steady people. I enjoyed the chat but now I must crack on with things.

[dwai]

 

6 hours ago, Wayfarer said:

Now, whether a reader likes this or not and accepts it or not, it is the Truth as I see it.  So, I may have sounded like Jesus or Lao Tzu but I was using their quotes and writings to explain these points.  Now I am not.  

There is something in life that is untouched, untroubled, not-thinking, and the more I experience it the more settled and at ease, I feel.  I also sense the energy of IT coming in and out of my day.  I have realised how it affects what "I" do, how it works to balance things.  Well, in essence there can be no balance in something that is one.

I see it like this... there is this thing that I saw.  I felt it within me and looked within it and saw that there isn't a within, it is endless, it is still yet vibrant.  Still, I didn't know.  Then one day I happened to glance up at the sky and I saw, felt the same presence in the sky and in that very second I realised it.  Everything is actually One thing.  There is no gap, there is not connection, we are not all part of something or interconnected, we are IT ITself and that's it.  And it is Beautiful.  If it were not here I could not be discussing this with you right now.

And this is the play of it.  What we see around us is how its vibrant energy (qi) has expressed itself.  No reason for it, but it is just unfolding, in apparent harmony and with apparent opposites.  And we are that already.  The peace we seek is within us already and is beyond us already.  It is just being missed.  And the only point I have been trying to make just as a simple response to the original post is this - you CAN study and make effort, you CAN follow precepts and read the classics, you CAN do all of these things BUT you don't need to.  It is already present within and around you and the potential to realise it is always available to you, whether that is in the silence present between a crow's call, or the still presence in flower, or the vibrant presence burning in a bush, or in flowers, in still water, in venus, in the sky - all of these things have been known to cause awakening.

 

It is already there.  It appears to be covered.  And what covers it the most is our thinking, and our little "me" that is telling itself stories about how things should be, how enlightened beings are somehow different than normal beings, how the higher self is better than the lower self and the confusion over duality and non-duality.

 

Nothing can be said truthfully because everything is true.  Nothing can be explained from an awakened self because even lies, threats, anger, ignorance come from the same THING, nothing is outside of it.

Sublime!!! 

6 hours ago, Wayfarer said:

So, now I am leaving this conversation.  No doubt some will say I am ducking out of it, or I am trying to appear in one way or another.  Why do I bother writing?  Why do I bother trying to help others when I know they are the same One and nothing makes a difference?  Simply because I can. 

 

[freeform]

51 minutes ago, Fa Xin said:

 

Would you mind sharing the signs that you would look for?

 

There are so many. Many of them are secret as they’re used to test students. I can probably tell you a couple that I’ve mentioned before or that I’ve seen teachers talk about publicly.

 

A sign of having actually built the Dantien is having a physical golfball to orange sized sphere in your belly that moves - turns, twists, shifts etc. A sign that you’ve achieved Yang Qi is that when anyone touches you while you engage in a certain practice, they receive a shock - like touching a live wire. There are simple ones like having certain tissues grow around your spine and other areas of the body - they can be felt with the fingers...

 

Later levels have to do with manifesting light in various ways (that can be picked up by a camera for example)... there’s a certain skill with transforming physical matter... etc... again I can’t talk about specifics - but you will probably have heard about holy people performing miracles. These are literal. They’re specific signposts on the way.

 

There are other siddhi that can be built quite mechanistically (the Neigong examples above) - but they can also appear miraculous - such as changing weather patterns, affecting people at a distance in various ways etc. They are different than the ones that come about as a result of fully embodying the pure light of Yuan Shen.

 

I realise it all sounds preposterous, if you told me this 10 years ago I would have laughed - but such is the way  

[Fa Xin]

53 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

There are so many. Many of them are secret as they’re used to test students. I can probably tell you a couple that I’ve mentioned before or that I’ve seen teachers talk about publicly.

 

A sign of having actually built the Dantien is having a physical golfball to orange sized sphere in your belly that moves - turns, twists, shifts etc. A sign that you’ve achieved Yang Qi is that when anyone touches you while you engage in a certain practice, they receive a shock - like touching a live wire. There are simple ones like having certain tissues grow around your spine and other areas of the body - they can be felt with the fingers...

 

Later levels have to do with manifesting light in various ways (that can be picked up by a camera for example)... there’s a certain skill with transforming physical matter... etc... again I can’t talk about specifics - but you will probably have heard about holy people performing miracles. These are literal. They’re specific signposts on the way.

 

There are other siddhi that can be built quite mechanistically (the Neigong examples above) - but they can also appear miraculous - such as changing weather patterns, affecting people at a distance in various ways etc. They are different than the ones that come about as a result of fully embodying the pure light of Yuan Shen.

 

I realise it all sounds preposterous, if you told me this 10 years ago I would have laughed - but such is the way  

Interesting stuff. Thanks 😊

 

So you take these signs as enlightenment too?

Edited May 1, 2019 by Fa Xin

[freeform]

2 hours ago, Fa Xin said:

So you take these signs as enlightenment too?

 

I’m not sure I understand.

 

The signs are just signs.

 

When fully enlightened, they simply arise... there are specific signs for full enlightenment.

 

One of which is knowing everything

[KuroShiro]

On 5/1/2019 at 5:00 PM, freeform said:

Later levels have to do with manifesting light in various ways (that can be picked up by a camera for example)... there’s a certain skill with transforming physical matter... etc... again I can’t talk about specifics - but you will probably have heard about holy people performing miracles. These are literal. They’re specific signposts on the way.

 

If it can be picked up by a camera it can also be seen with the naked eye, right?

 

Do the masters you know perform healing miracles or is there a special reason they choose not to?

[welkin]

On 4/15/2019 at 3:52 AM, J Warg said:

After talking about elementals and other beings...

 

Ok, some of you see these invisible creatures; some of you see spirits, interact with them; some of you astral travel at will, talk to guides, visit other realms, etc.

 

How can a 100% unsensitive-to-the-invisible person can become more sensitive to these other realities?

 

That’s a genuine question, I’d like to change my perception of the world.

 

Before going through a spiritual journey, maybe start by asking yourself if you see the 'invisible' things happening in our own physical reality. Quite possibly, the world or this matrix might be just a little too fair or good in your perspective. Look for wrong things, even if you think things are okay :). This is probably not cautious advice. But hey, if you really wanted to get there through an extreme way...

[freeform]

9 hours ago, KuroShiro said:

 

If it can be picked up by a camera it can also be seen with the naked eye, right?

 

Do the masters you know perform healing miracles or is there a special reason they choose not to?

 

Yes - visible light.

 

Regarding healing... yes.

 

Although they’re not ‘miracles’ in the same way because healing is generally mechanistic. 

 

Even though Wai Qi Liao Fa might look miraculous (some of you may have seen Jiang Feng transmitting concentrated Qi on YouTube) - and even though it requires incredible level of skill, it is not the result of spiritual cultivation - it has nothing to do with it.

 

There is also the question of Ming. Healing on a deeper level requires changing the Ming - and that comes with certain responsibilities. Some people’s Ming is stubborn or troublesome and a high level healer might refuse to see them. 

 

Conversely masters who are spiritually developed might change your health (and even your life circumstances) indirectly - just by you being in their presence your Ming can shift profoundly. Usually you wouldn’t even realise that something has happened.

Edited May 3, 2019 by freeform

[silent thunder]

On 5/1/2019 at 8:18 AM, Wayfarer said:

In Daoism is not called awakening or enlightenment but "attaining the Dao" which I suspect the word "attaining" is a wrong translation.

 

The word that arises when trying to share my experience of it is unfolding. 

The sense is of unfolding in Dao. 

 

Continual opening, non grasping, non seeking, simplest raw presence that is never static, yet never traveling anywhere.

Simple effortless unfolding.

 

Thanks for sharing your insights and experiences in this thread.  The way you express yourself resonates familiarity and is appreciated.  Your words really rang the bell when they passed through awareness.

 

Thanks mate.