Mental and physical routes to enightenment

[dwai]

2 hours ago, MIchael80 said:

Hi dwai!

I do not aggree with that statement.

Highest yoga tantra and dzogchen ...both budhist traditions mention the rainbow body and see it as the highest expression of enlightenment. Even in the yoga sutras i think there is a line like "perfection of the body comes last".....there is also this light body phenomena in sufi sects.....a lot of traditions see the transformation of the body as the hightest form of enlightenment as it is the deepest form of embodying the absolute. Some modern teachers like David Buckland or Lorne Hoff speak also in that direction and say that the transfomration of the body happens naturally if allowed but takes a long time.

best

I didn't make a qualitative comparison. I only pointed out that in the Wisdom traditions that follow pure Jnana yoga path, don't strive for this "rainbow body". Their objective is the cessation of suffering. Though it might be, that there are sub-sects within these traditions who do focus on this "rainbow body" concept. Seems that the Buddha didn't care for that either. His objective too was the cessation of suffering.

 

That's not to say that the Siddhas and adepts of the traditions that focus on the alchemical side of things aren't incredible. Of course they are! But pure jnana way seems to not care much for the rainbow body/light body etc. 

 

P.S. Decided to add this (reader please note, messenger, message, et al) --

 

In a conversation with a very high level adept,  I  was told (I'm inexactly quoting) -- 

 

"In the dharma path, typically you will be offered a choice at a certain stage. You could choose to become a Brahma or an immortal (as in Rainbow body, etc) or a mahasiddha, and take over the creation of universes etc. However, you WILL HAVE TO come back to complete the cycle of liberation at some point (which could be millions or billions of human years), to become truly liberated. The adept has to come back to the karmabhoomi (the land of action) to ultimately become free of karma."

 

Edited April 26, 2019 by dwai
grammar

[rideforever]

Dr Morris died aged 62.   

The kundalini types of awakenings are for people who wish to use dramatic energy instead of using the intelligence of self-recognition.   I have not done much kundalini energy work myself, but they seem to frequently lead to energy problems or death.
However if you are intelligent and take things in moderation you might mitigate that danger.

 

Physical or mental ?

Well, the primary problem with humans may in fact not be "enlightenment" but the fragmentation of their human consciousness, meaning that human society damages human children so severely through bad educational habits that have worsened down the ages, that human beings live in a mad ego state of many fragmented subselves.  50 voices in the head rather than 1.   This is not really an enlightenment problem.  The human being without enlightenment could be divine but since the "fall" they have lost their way quite badly, and now the entire society is damaging itself repeatedly in every generation, and nobody knows which way is up.

 

As for spiritual enlightenment, i.e. the activation of states beyond ordinary human consciousness, each state has an energy body which then self-recognizes.   Self-recognition is the flame of intelligence that lights up the energy centre.   Some students spend much time cultivating energy bodies, others try to shortcut the process by self-reconizing right now which can eventually generates the energy body itself, although this method can also lead to shallow energy bodies.

 

Some are awakened in a centre in the head, others in the heart, others in the dantien.  All these awakenings are different because these centres feel different, the divine heart is different from pure consciousness.   But as these awakenings are all beyond the crazy human mind they all release you; they all represent a constant and stable identity, beyond the fluctuations of material phenomena (thoughts and perceptions).

 

In many people with "Awareness" they have a low level of awakening with a weak energy body.   This is made worse by beliefs that "this is all there is".   They miss the fact that Advaita masters in India sat for many years with a guru receiving constant energetic transmission and cultivating the energy body for years.   And their realisation sat on top of that energy body.   Realisation is like the flicker of intelligence that illuminates the energy.  And in the traditional environment the energy body was large and strong through years of practice.
So modern western teachers who have shallow-fied (or shallow fried) non duality are doing a disservice to the tradition.

 

Another problem with "Awareness" is that it is such a shallow awakening that there is no sense of anything, it is like awakening bare.   And so you imagine nothing exists or even existed or that there is no teaching and nothing happened and nothing is nothing.   But it is simply because your awakening is so shallow that you can't see anything.

Once the energy body is properly developed and you have "Consciousness" then you can see yourself properly and you realise that you are there, that you actually exist, and that there was a teacher and a path.

The solution to this is to keep sitting until the energy body develops properly.

 

Many energy traditions in the Chinese Arts form energy bodies without realisation, which may be useless upon death, I am not sure.   It seems to be the self-recognition that holds the being together upon death, rather than unawakened energy.

So, it would be very useful for people working with the dantien to try to say "I Am Here" in the dantien from time to time to awaken it, in order to feel that "I" is alive in the belly.

 

A rapid path is to receive transmission from an awakened teacher of the state of self-realisation followed by a lot of sitting, and a little energy work on the energy body.

 

Edited April 27, 2019 by rideforever

[MIchael80]

15 hours ago, dwai said:

I didn't make a qualitative comparison. I only pointed out that in the Wisdom traditions that follow pure Jnana yoga path, don't strive for this "rainbow body". Their objective is the cessation of suffering. Though it might be, that there are sub-sects within these traditions who do focus on this "rainbow body" concept. Seems that the Buddha didn't care for that either. His objective too was the cessation of suffering.

 

That's not to say that the Siddhas and adepts of the traditions that focus on the alchemical side of things aren't incredible. Of course they are! But pure jnana way seems to not care much for the rainbow body/light body etc. 

 

P.S. Decided to add this (reader please note, messenger, message, et al) --

 

In a conversation with a very high level adept,  I  was told (I'm inexactly quoting) -- 

 

"In the dharma path, typically you will be offered a choice at a certain stage. You could choose to become a Brahma or an immortal (as in Rainbow body, etc) or a mahasiddha, and take over the creation of universes etc. However, you WILL HAVE TO come back to complete the cycle of liberation at some point (which could be millions or billions of human years), to become truly liberated. The adept has to come back to the karmabhoomi (the land of action) to ultimately become free of karma."

 

Hi Dwai!

thanks for your clarification!

However as i pointed out....to me that is not true (and what i heard of very high level teachers).....sure you can cange the body through alchemical techniques.....but in most tradtions who speak of this phenomena who do not use alchemical stuff they frame the disolution of the physical body as the full karma disolution (even the karmic stains in the elements of the body are purified with changes the elements back to their original state...which later brings the disolution of the body like ramalinga).

Buddha taught different vehicles and highest yoga tantra was his highest.

As far as i know this phenomena has happened in almost all traditions....though in some more often than in others. David Buckland (and i also think Lorne Hoff) is of the impression that this is a natural process (after awakening) if the embodyment is allowed (which most often is not as this brings all the suppressed traumas to the surface) but maybe cannot complete because naturally it would take a lot of time (because of the density of the body) to complete. (so we would have to get older than we currently do to let that happen).

 

so your quote does not make sense to me.....because if the body disolves that is a deeper karmic purification that just letting it die. (it only makes sense if we come to the light body through techniques, but then we are not awake even though we have the light body).

 

best

Edited April 27, 2019 by MIchael80