Dao of the Death Penalty: on Punishment, Rehabilitation and Retribution.

[windwalker]

1 hour ago, ilumairen said:

I'm curious if the individuals posting here believe punishment is meant as a deterrent to crime, as "justice", and/or some variant of factors. 

 

I'm curious how population density is understood to effect both crime and the punishment thereof. 

 

And I'm also curious on individual ideas regarding rehabilitation, and how individuals came to their ideas. 

 

It would be good to list what you ask of others..no?

[silent thunder]

I lean away from murder as punishment.

I lean away from punishment at all.

 

Isolate the violent, the dangerous.  Stop them, prevent them if possible and then isolate them.

Isolate and limit the ability to cause harm.

 

But once isolated, why seek to heap further abuse on an already damaged individual?

Why seek to damage?  Cause more pain?

 

There are times when I have inflicted great justified pain on another.  They deserved it.  I saturated in this justification as I said words that will hound them the remainder of their lives, eviscerating them mentally.  Anyone can heal from a bruise or broken bone.  But a few well worded phrases will paralyze and harm someone's reality through their mind the rest of their lives perhaps.

 

Seems like sickness to me now.  To desire to inflict pain for pain. 

 

I have only so much energy in life, in any given day.

I'm gratefully coming to a point where I no longer have much energy for lashing out.

I save my energy for protecting, for nurturing. 

 

If merited, if truly needed I will engage in violence.  I'm no pacifist.  No doormat.

Though I notice I'm quicker to rise to defend another, than myself.

 

And once the harm has passed and the violator has been subdued and stopped... there is no desire to heap abuse and pain on them. 

 

I have only so much energy in any day.  I would rather apply it nurturing what I love, than harming what I despise.

 

[ilumairen]

Just now, windwalker said:

 

It would be good to list what you ask of others..no?

 

Not really. It may only serve to dissuade discussion, and that is not my intent. 

[windwalker]

1 minute ago, ilumairen said:

 

Not really. It may only serve to dissuade discussion, and that is not my intent. 

 

thanks an honest answer.

 

on the net, I've found those asking such questions do so to clarify a position that they in turn use

against those providing answers which they never seem to do as you have done.

 

think "ralis" 

 

not saying this applies to you, just saying IME this is usually what happens. 

[silent thunder]

...

Edited December 26, 2021 by silent thunder

[ilumairen]

4 minutes ago, windwalker said:

 

thanks an honest answer.

 

on the net, I've found those asking such questions do so to clarify a position that they in turn use

against those providing answers which they never seem to do as you have done.

 

think "ralis" 

 

not saying this applies to you, just saying IME this is usually what happens. 

 

Yes, I've seen this too. And that isn't my intent here. 

[windwalker]

3 minutes ago, silent thunder said:

Here's my take on DDJ chapter 31 which addresses war, violence and weapons:

 

Do you or others ever consider the time in which those statements were made?

 

[rideforever]

The goal is always the most productive orchard.
How can I, or we, grow the most beautiful and productive orchard full of trees with lots of fruit.

 

It's not just about crime, it's about everything.

And so ... one has to understand both the inner and outer workings of man.

 

How does one learn, properly ?
One way is to think about a child, how can it learn ?
Does it learn without discipline, or even without teaching ?
Does it learn from ... automatic teaching of a curriculum ?

 

Many things to think about.

 

Idealism : well everything is in motion, people and societies.
We can only do what we can do according to our abilities.

Talking about an ideal destination is different to ... what can we do from here ?
And to ... what do we have the capacity to do ?

 

Some traditional barriers to solutions are :
the cowardice or a man
the laziness of a man
the inexperience of a man
the sheeplike nature of a man

the indulgences of a man

 

And ... intelligence love consciousness responsibility ... these are not just learnt from anyone.
Someone who is already like that can teach you.
Therefore the state of harmony and consciousness of a society will harm or help you.
And we cannot fake up teaching.   

Saying words is not the same as someone with Being speaking to you.

So, we can talk about the health of "the family unit" as the very ground of society.

 

Then there is blood, bloodlines and the effect your bone marrow has on your life.

Your ancestors and their gifts to you.

 

Many things.

 

A society that indulges in sugar-food sugar-emotion (hollywood) and sugar-ideas (internet), becomes numb.   

All it knows is high octane food and  feelings and ideas.
The language of wellbeing ... is no longer of interest to such.

 

[silent thunder]

On 4/25/2019 at 10:21 AM, windwalker said:

 

Do you or others ever consider the time in which those statements were made?

 

I do.  Won't speak for others.

Edited December 26, 2021 by silent thunder

[liminal_luke]

2 hours ago, ilumairen said:

I'm curious if the individuals posting here believe punishment is meant as a deterrent to crime, as "justice", and/or some variant of factors. 

 

I'm curious how population density is understood to effect both crime and the punishment thereof. 

 

And I'm also curious on individual ideas regarding rehabilitation, and how individuals came to their ideas. 

 

I agree with Silent Thunder about punishment -- what´s the point?  The whole idea of justice or revenge seems preposterous to my higher self.  (My lower self, on the other hand, is all for it.)

 

Is punishment a deterrent to crime?  It depends.  If people could choose not to pay taxes with no consequence I´m pretty sure more of us would choose not to pay.  If corporations could pollute the environment with no consequence, there would probably be more pollution.  Still, I´m not sure the threat of punishment deters violent crime, especially so-called crimes of passion.  Abusive parents and spouses are unlikely to consider the threat of punishment and stop.  Ditto for rapists and murderers. 

 

Generally speaking, criminals don´t get rehabilitated in prison and that´s too bad.  If we can change the system so that rehabilitation is possible I think we should. 

 

We have a legitimate interest in locking people up who are likely to harm others if they were free.  That´s pretty much it, I think.  I´d rather we move past eye-for-an-eye ideas of justice or punishment.  That kind of thinking imprisons us all.

Edited April 25, 2019 by liminal_luke

[thelerner]

2 hours ago, ilumairen said:

I'm curious if the individuals posting here believe punishment is meant as a deterrent to crime, as "justice", and/or some variant of factors. 

 

I'm curious how population density is understood to effect both crime and the punishment thereof. 

 

And I'm also curious on individual ideas regarding rehabilitation, and how individuals came to their ideas. 

(imo) part of punishment is for deterrence of others who'd commit the crime.  There are some crimes that are easy to commit and get away with, for those a punishment greater then normally expected should be met out.  This should help deter some people from doing the crime seeing the punishment is surprisingly harsh.  

 

Some prisons are breeding grounds for worse more aggressive criminals.  More should be done to keep gangs and gang mentality from forming.  Course thats easier said then done.  Still Leaders should be identified and put elsewhere.  Maybe 'planting' cons with excellent leadership abilities who are on the straight and narrow in there place might get somewhere.. or not.  But some sort of ethical leadership training with the carrot of better conditions and shorter time might help or be pie in the sky.

 

Privatizing prisons has hurt the system, its cheaper but they try to make profit off of family visits and calls.  While I wouldn't want to see cons going into the military, there could be a Peace Corps where they do civic projects and get much more freedom, a military style discipline, plus a path forward with advanced educational degrees. 

 

Housing is a key issue.  I wouldn't mind seeing subsidized 'dorm' style housing available with strict guidelines.  Where it'd be easy to kick out people for infractions and residents would have to put in hours of cleaning and maintenance.  Like dorms split residents into groups, have meetings that pass on problems and solutions to higher ups. 

 

Without a place to go, crime repeats.  Cheap, rule based housing might be the forgotten key to ending the high recidivism rate.  I guess thats what Halfway houses are already striving for.  I wonder how well they're working and if the concept could be enlarged to a greater population. 

[Aetherous]

2 hours ago, ilumairen said:

I'm curious if the individuals posting here believe punishment is meant as a deterrent to crime, as "justice", and/or some variant of factors. 

 

I'm curious how population density is understood to effect both crime and the punishment thereof. 

 

And I'm also curious on individual ideas regarding rehabilitation, and how individuals came to their ideas. 

I'm interested to know your thoughts on these questions, since you've read "On Crimes and Punishments" (I haven't).

[silent thunder]

When does a punishment become its own crime? 

I don't know who could answer for everyone.  I sure can't. 

I only know my take on this has evolved over time, back and forth a couple times since my teens.

 

It varies by the scenario and individual.  

 

I don't think there's one right answer.  But I find it beneficial to check in from time to time and gauge current perspective.

Edited December 26, 2021 by silent thunder

[thelerner]

14 minutes ago, silent thunder said:

When does a punishment become its own crime? 

for some reason Philippines came to mind.  Getting too hyped on punishment is like staring into the abyss.  Stay long enough and what stares back is a mirror. 

14 minutes ago, silent thunder said:

 

I can't conceive of wanting to harm them, or that harm even come to them in some neutral path.  What would this do?  Damage them further?  What would this achieve?  Bring further harm to any others who are unfortunate to cross their path.

 

 

There is no energy for punishment. 

I find myself wishing them healing.  But healing over there... away.

 

I'm reserving my energy to support my wife and hold space for her healing.

To remind her that we live here now, in the world we build together.

 

You're a better man then I.  After sexual and food, revenge is my 3rd favorite fantasy. 

[rideforever]

Something strange is the question of which cocktails of chemicals are administered for a "humane" execution in the US.

Well my preference would be to take the man outside into the forest, give him 5 minutes and then shoot him dead.

That seems humane and at least he has some fresh air, nature, and no bull5hit.

Having 15 people crowded around you measuring out quantities of poisons with cameras and forms to sign in triplicate and a health and safety team! seems like a cruel and unusual punishment.

The last thing you witness is the idiocy of human bureaucracy and political fighting.

But then you have to look at how animals are treated in abattoirs with the automated machine murder.

It's so cold.

In the human heart and the human mind.

Probably a good many human beings die wondering how people could be so cruel.

Thank god for the teachers who at least left us some hope.

Probably many people are very happy to die, at least after they are allowed to.

( 30 minutes later the doctors will be cutting you open to play with your organs and fill out more forms before throwing you into the gutter )
What a place !!!
What a fing place this is.
It's like the ultimate test !!!!!
 

 

Edited April 25, 2019 by rideforever

[Pilgrim]

Overthinking it.

 

Invest in companies that provide and are part of the institutionalized prison system. You will do well.

 

Hmm should follow this advice need to look at my 401K offerings.

 

Death awaits us all it is nothing, been there done that outgrew the T-Shirt.

 

life imprisonment is a far worse punishment and a burden for all.

 

I advocate removal from what people call life. Going to happen weather saint or sinner.

 

Convicted murderer, convicted rapist, convicted child molester. 

 

Bye, Bye. 

[rideforever]

One thing is for sure, you can't leave diseased trees in an orchard or they will bring disease to the whole crop.

Neither can you have unruly children in a classroom or they will damage education for everyone.

Neither can you have people who are making effort to be sober and those full of indulgence in the same community.
For Buddha you cannot have people who are conscious and those with impure spirit in the same meeting ("this meeting is impure").

The IChing says that if you are to overdo things, overdo on the side of discipline rather than on the side of indulgence.
i.e tolerance is limited.

Edited April 26, 2019 by rideforever

[ilumairen]

20 hours ago, Aetherous said:

I'm interested to know your thoughts on these questions, since you've read "On Crimes and Punishments" (I haven't).

 

The work influenced our own criminal justice system in the U.S., and was written in the 1700s. I would recommend it to anyone interested in the subject matter. This being said, having read it doesn't make me an authority on the subject, and my views on this issue hold no more weight than anyone else's. 

 

Many of my views are nuanced, and loosely held, a few are more strongly held. 

 

I don't believe that rehabilitation is a possibility for all offenders. 

 

And I don't believe the death penalty is effective as a deterrent. 

 

I believe we should be honest about these two issues - even as people may have breathed easier knowing Ted Bundy or John Wayne Gacy were no longer breathing the same air. 

[Aetherous]

20 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

And I don't believe the death penalty is effective as a deterrent. 

 

Right? I can't imagine someone who is planning to kill another thinking, "Maybe I shouldn't, because I could be executed if they caught me".

[Wu Ming Jen]

Heaven and earth are Inhumane:
they use the ten thousand things like straw dogs.
And the sage too is Inhumane:
he uses the hundred-fold people like straw dogs.

 

This suggests that any standard of "humanity" or "humane treatment" is a human-created idea that is not reflected in the natural unfolding of Way.  The passage could be interpreted as saying: don't attempt to apply a notion of morality or humanity to the world, because the world has its own logic that is not driven by moral standards.  Moral intervention might bring unanticipated negative consequences.  Hence the "sage," too, is "inhumane."

 

If a human commits crimes against humanity being put to death was their own choosing. Getting in the way for moral beliefs will encourage others bad behavior and continue the mental disease further into the future.

 

I had jury duty for the vampire murders in Fl. many years ago I stated just kill him now and I was not picked for court. 

[silent thunder]

Intriguing to encounter this thought.

 

Quote

The twisted irony of violent crime is that the two people involved -- those who commit the heinous act, and those who survive -- are connected for the rest of their lives. From the moment of the incident on, their life stories must always include that other person.

But our current criminal justice system isn't designed to acknowledge this reality. It serves to keep people on both sides of a crime completely separate as it weighs out the appropriate penalty. This system may deliver justice. What it might not do is heal.

 

update for those who may not follow the news: 

(I've been taking it in daily for about 3 months now and will soon cease)

The man convicted to death in my quote of the opening post died in Texas on Wed as planned.

One thing seems certain.  That man will never drag anyone to death behind a truck again.

 

And yet some of the victim's own family sought to stay his execution. 

 

Perhaps it's the victims who should decide the punishment once guilt has been established?

Why leave it to a judge or jury who were not involved directly?

 

Deeply appreciate everyone's thoughtful and passionate sharing here.

I consider no one wrong, or correct in this conversation or their take. 

It's all invaluable.

 

Edited April 26, 2019 by silent thunder

[silent thunder]

further quotes:

if interested, here is the entire article

 

Quote

I saw survivors of violence and loss agree to meet face-to-face and talk with those who hurt them or their family members. Meanwhile, those who had made terrible decisions sat down to hear directly from those whose lives they had derailed or destroyed.

 

These carefully structured dialogues are a key part of the restorative justice process. Where our criminal justice system focuses on punishment of the individual responsible for the crime, restorative justice seeks to heal the whole community and all parties involved. (Note that some people find the term "victim" to be dehumanizing. But within the context of a restorative justice process, it is the most commonly used term, so I will use it here advisedly along with the term "survivor.")

 

Quote

Not every conversation resulted in a miraculous breakthrough. For some crime survivors, the pain proved too deep to set aside. But the dialogues were still invaluable, as they gave long-suffering victims vital information, invaluable insight and answers to questions that had haunted them for years.

At the same time, some conversations resulted in crime survivors going before parole boards to try to free the person who hurt them. One mother of a murdered child essentially adopted the man who killed her son and became his mentor.

I believe we can learn a lot from the spectrum of responses of these remarkable people who attempted to reach across an unfathomable divide. I know that I did.

 

[thelerner]

Forgiveness is good for the soul.

may not always be wise though.

 

Likewise, hatred is bad for the soul,

it gets things done, possible justice?

 

Problem is:

The good guys consider themselves good

Often the bad guys do too.

 

If revenge is best served hot**,

then justice is best served lukewarm,

when cooler heads prevail. 

 

 

**apologies to Bill, who said its best served cold.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[silent thunder]

It certainly seems the one set free when forgiveness arises, is the one forgiving, not the one forgiven.

 

That was my experience.  Forgiveness for me is not condoning, accepting, or accomodating the one forgiven.

It's at its core a decision that I no longer am able or willing to spend energy in resentment, anger, rage and bitterness.

 

When I forgive, I'm setting my burden down.  I'm letting myself live free of resentment, unknotting anger.

When I burn in resentment, I burn.  The one I'm resenting is not burnt, they are living their life, oblivious.

 

I watched my Mother carry a burning seed of resentment over her divorce for years.

She'd be boiling about it sometimes for hours a day, many years later; meanwhile he was on his boat, mixing martinis and enjoying his life.

 

Don't forgive because they deserve it, forogive because your life is worth more than living in resentment.

 

Or don't... no one holds a gun to anyone's head for this stuff.

It comes when it comes or it doesn't... no right or wrong on timing of grief, trauma and healing.

 

Edited April 27, 2019 by silent thunder
fixed a sentence that was missing a word.

[rideforever]

In this society there is far too much talk about forgiveness compassion and feelings.
And far too little about one bad apple rots the whole barrel.

Human beings are capable of being insincere.