After Enlightenment - Sainthood, Personality,

[KuroShiro]

On 4/24/2019 at 4:46 PM, dwai said:

I find it amusing how we have the preconception that a Master must be a “saint”. Even after enlightenment, certain personality traits will remain. Otherwise, the personality would become extremely boring

 

I'm starting this thread because of this post by dwai which I think touched on a very interesting and important subject.

Even if we're not talking about enlightenment personality by itself is a fascinating subject.

 

I would like to know if there is an equivalent word for saint in Chinese and if so what are the Chinese characters. It would also be great to know the equivalent word in other traditions.

 

What changes in one's personality, emotions... in the path to enlightenment?

 

The masters talk about a constant inner happiness not dependent of the external circumstances/outside world, I first read about this in Chuang Tzu. Does this happiness relates to Love?

 

Do you know if enlightenment (or something else beyond it) is what we are meant to "achieve" in this earthly realm (kind of a kindergarten) and until then there is reincarnation?

 

 

The conversation has started, these are the posts from the other thread:

On 4/27/2019 at 12:16 PM, freeform said:

And a master should be a saint after enlightenment.

 

The only reason they aren’t is because they’re not enlightened  

 

In almost all instances I’ve come across ‘awakening’ is confused with ‘enlightenment’ - and they’re very different.

 

incidentally the highest number of confused enlightenments I’ve come across is in the Advaita Vedanta tradition.

 

Not because it’s flawed in some way, but maybe because it so readily achieves an awakening in its students. That’s where I had my first taste of awakening.

1 hour ago, Wayfarer said:

The energy coming out of someone's head and a master becoming a saint after enlightenment is a misunderstanding sorry.

 

We may be looking for something special, that our aura becomes bright or special things happen during awakening BUT enlightenment is the sudden realisation of what you are and have always been.  All that changes is the knowing, the understanding.  So, if a halo is on top of your head, it was there already.  If you become saint, well that is only because you can now rest and be tranquil.

1 hour ago, freeform said:

 

Again - that is not enlightenment. That’s awakening. These are very different.

 

I think it’s normal to ‘lower the bar’ to a ‘height’ we find more acceptable or realistic. But the classical teachings are quite clear about what enlightenment is and what awakening is and what they aren’t. And the two are profoundly different even if along the same line of development.

 

This is important.

27 minutes ago, Wayfarer said:

No, they are the same.  And there is no line of development.

[Wayfarer]

1 hour ago, KuroShiro said:

The masters talk about a constant inner happiness not dependent of the external circumstances/outside world, I first read about this in Chuang Tzu. Does this happiness relates to Love?

 

Not necessarily.  It depends where it happens energetically at the time of experiencing awakening.  If in the heart area it can be experienced as a love for the beauty of existence but it is a love without object, not "for" something.

 

1 hour ago, KuroShiro said:

Do you know if enlightenment (or something else beyond it) is what we are meant to "achieve" in this earthly realm (kind of a kindergarten) and until then there is reincarnation?

 

It is not something to achieve, it is simply a realisation.  In the same way, you don't achieve a joke, you suddenly get the punchline and laugh, well this is a kind of punchline that a person believes they are a person, they are a self but in the moment of enlightenment they realise that they are no different than everything they are looking at, that there is no separation or gap.  Nothing changes other than the realisation, so the gap has never been there, we just think that it is.

There is no reincarnation because we are That which has not come into being.  In Daoism, it is called the Dao.  You and I are the same Dao.  What dies is an expression of it due to how the energy (chi) has manifest "as" us, not "is" us.  If we turn to Buddhism for a moment, the Buddha argued that an awakened person steps off the wheel of cause and effect and ends his or her karma.  Nothing has been stepped off or ended, only the "perception" has ended.  An awakened person, or sage, has realised this truth and knows that cause and effect "appears" to occur but what it belongs to is not subject to change.  There is no karma, because a sage realises that there is nothing for the concept of karma to attach itself to.

To be trying to "become" something, or to be told that you must do a method to become awake is like telling a fish that it must learn to swim to discover water.

[freeform]

1 hour ago, Wayfarer said:

It is not something to achieve, it is simply a realisation. 

 

Why is it that this notion is not represented in the Daoist and Buddhist classics?

 

While on the other hand it’s over-represented by modern teachers and Instagram memes?

Edited April 29, 2019 by freeform

[rideforever]

imo : effortlessly being > I guess that's the point, no more struggle.
Sages have tried to convey to others what it means and how it is to be there, they say "I see this", "I do that" ... and unawakened beings try to follow these ideas as moral rules. 

Which can indeed approximate a sense of being a sage.
But a sage is not actually following these rules, he is in an effortless state.

We can try to follow these moral rules to get a sense of it.

We can try to enter the state of the Sage by following his path of entry.

 

Often the moral rules are mistaken for the path of entry.   

The path of entry of a Sage may not be well understood by the Sage himself.
Often the path of entry is difficult gruelling long and complex, it is hard to remember what you did.

He is just happy to live effortlessly and tells people what he sees and how he sees the world, often he is very happy, and tired.

But, if you rewind the clock and say ... "so, what did you actually do" ... then that is interesting reading.

 

[dwai]

Forget about Buddhist, Daoist, Hindu etc for a moment. 

 

Look ok at the topic from a simpler perspective. What is enlightenment? 

 

In my books, enlightenment is the realization of one’s true nature. It is not some alchemical immortality or attainment of sainthood. In fact, in dharma traditions, wherein the concept of enlightenment takes a central position, does not really speak much about sainthood or alchemical immortality. In certain sects such as tantric traditions, there is that element though. However one could have great siddhis and still be far from enlightenment. 

 

Immortality as per the wisdom traditions is in the realization of one’s true nature, which will eliminate all misconceptions and fears/psychoses  that arise from fear of death. Yet, this (enlightenment) is not a supernatural realization, or an attainment of something external. No amount of “practice” can directly cause this. It is simply a result of dropping all aspects of the personality and conditioning that obscures our true nature. It is always there. Everyone is already always enlightened, just not realized yet.

The practices only help to prepare the mind for the direct apperception of the truth. 

 

Once one realizes one’s true nature, one is free from future causality. 

 

That being said, the personality of individuals is predicated on the causality conditions (karma) that created the present mind-body. Not all of these need to disappear with enlightenment. Only those which are impediments to realization will go. All the others will dilute significantly, but remain so long as the body-mind seems to remain. 

 

WRT happiness. Let’s look at what Chuang tzu says about happiness. “Happiness is the cessation of seeking”. When does one cease seeking? When one knows one’s true nature. That’s why in a tradition like Vedanta the absolute nature (called Brahman  or Atman/Self) is called complete, indivisible, etc. The realized sage is always contented, because he/she is complete in and as the Self.  Nothing more is necessary or wanted. 

Edited May 2, 2019 by dwai

[Wayfarer]

3 hours ago, freeform said:

 

Why is it that this notion is not represented in the Daoist and Buddhist classics?

 

While on the other hand it’s over-represented by modern teachers and Instagram memes?

 

It is in Chuang Tzu, Lao Tzu and the Huainantzu.  It was the centre of debate between the 5th and 11th centuries by Chong Xuan daoists verses Buddhists.  It is also in Buddhist classics like the Heart Sutra, the Diamond Sutra, the Sutra to the 8 Bodhisattvas.  And many others.  Bodhidharma, Huang Po, Stonehouse, Ikkyu - the lists goes on.

You are telling yourself (or have been told) a nice story.  All classic religious books are full of "other stuff" because people can't get it when they are told the answer.  Jesus spoke in parables for that reason, parts of Zen are based on koans for that reason etc.

If you are a Buddhist, then you should consider Kashyapa's awakening.

 

Edited April 29, 2019 by Wayfarer

[freeform]

1 hour ago, Wayfarer said:

It is in Chuang Tzu, Lao Tzu and the Huainantzu.

 

These texts said 'you're enlightened, you just don't realise it'? Must've missed that bit.

 

3 hours ago, dwai said:

No amount of “practice” can directly cause this.

 

 

Quite right - practice is about creating the correct conditions for things to arise of their own accord. This is a most important point and is at the root of all genuine internal arts.

 

And creating the conditions is a long laborious process. Without practice, you're not going to get enlightened.

 

3 hours ago, dwai said:

Everyone is already always enlightened, just not realized yet.

 

'Awakened' is a different matter - you can get self-awakening and it can happen spontaneously. Enlightenment,  however, takes quite specific causes to be in place.

[Wayfarer]

The texts don't say enlightened because that is a Buddhist / Indian word, they talk about non-being.  Yes, you have missed it, it is the central point to Daoism.  

 

In the space of no-thought there is neither enlightenment nor ignorance.  You are talking in concepts, it is these very things that you need to drop because no amount of methods or techniques can help.  Ikkyu realised "enlightenment" between the sounds of a crow cawing.  What I think you are confusing is after awakening, it can take a while for the conditioned emotional responses to life to begin to drop away.  But if you think something special is going to happen and that there is a difference between an awakened person and an enlightened one you are fooling yourself.  There is no difference between a person who is ignorant and one who is enlightened for they are both the same One.

[dwai]

 

41 minutes ago, freeform said:

And creating the conditions is a long laborious process. Without practice, you're not going to get enlightened.

 

It depends. Primarily on what kind of work you've put into it in previous lifetimes. As long as you are part of the game, the rules of the game apply. 

41 minutes ago, freeform said:

'Awakened' is a different matter - you can get self-awakening and it can happen spontaneously. Enlightenment,  however, takes quite specific causes to be in place.

What is the difference?  

[dwai]

11 minutes ago, Wayfarer said:

The texts don't say enlightened because that is a Buddhist / Indian word, they talk about non-being.  Yes, you have missed it, it is the central point to Daoism.  

it is not even an Indian word. There is no word that literally translates to "enlightenment". In the Hindu traditions there is the word "Moksha" or "Mukti" (freedom). There is also use of the word "Kaivalyam" (Oneness). In the Buddhist tradition, there is use of the word Nirvāńa (which means the disappearance of the little "i"). There is also the word "Buddha" (means awakened/aware, coming from the root word "Bōdhati).  It is a word that Western translators have ascribed to those terms referenced earlier. 

Quote

 

In the space of no-thought there is neither enlightenment nor ignorance.  You are talking in concepts, it is these very things that you need to drop because no amount of methods or techniques can help.  Ikkyu realised "enlightenment" between the sounds of a crow cawing.  What I think you are confusing is after awakening, it can take a while for the conditioned emotional responses to life to begin to drop away.  But if you think something special is going to happen and that there is a difference between an awakened person and an enlightened one you are fooling yourself.  There is no difference between a person who is ignorant and one who is enlightened for they are both the same One.

"Samādhi" that is interrupted by thoughts  

Edited April 29, 2019 by dwai

[freeform]

5 minutes ago, Wayfarer said:

You are talking in concepts

 You're also talking in concepts. I'm just not pretending that we can get beyond concepts in a format largely based on written text.

 

7 minutes ago, Wayfarer said:

What I think you are confusing is after awakening, it can take a while for the conditioned emotional responses to life to begin to drop away.  But if you think something special is going to happen and that there is a difference between an awakened person and an enlightened one you are fooling yourself.

 

I am talking from experience of meeting awakened people and meeting enlightened people (well - person). They are very different.

 

7 minutes ago, dwai said:

What is the difference?

 

I've already explained the difference.

 

I think it may be better to talk about the difference between a Sheng Ren and a Zhen Ren - as someone else has asked me about that and it's a good question. I'll write about it when I have time.

 

PS - I recognise my view is unpopular. My teachers don't talk about these things in the open - and I realise why

[dwai]

 

Just now, freeform said:

I've already explained the difference.

 

I think it may be better to talk about the difference between a Sheng Ren and a Zhen Ren - as someone else has asked me about that and it's a good question. I'll write about it when I have time.

 

PS - I recognise my view is unpopular. My teachers don't talk about these things in the open - and I realise why

 That'll be wonderful. Thanks for sharing...

[Wayfarer]

You cannot explain the difference because there is none.  But if you think there is a long road to what is before your very eyes then that is how it will appear.  It's your choice of course.

[mrpasserby]

In my experience: as an awakened person I needed to experience something greater. In my craft the first thing that I was taught  was to create a functional spirit self.

Isn't the action of creating a eternal/functional spirit, slimier to the process that I have been studding in Taoist Neiden?  

Edited May 4, 2019 by mrpasserby
Cleaned up unclear comment

[dwai]

39 minutes ago, mrpasserby said:

 In my craft the first thing to begin creating is naturally a eternal/functional spirit self.

Isn't the action of creating a eternal/functional spirit, slimier to the process that I have been studding in Taoist Neiden?  

Interesting concept. So you create something that didn't exist? Like creating butter from cream (through churning)? Or is it more like pulling stuff from the environment to produce something new?

[KuroShiro]

8 hours ago, Wayfarer said:

There is no reincarnation because we are That which has not come into being.  In Daoism, it is called the Dao.  You and I are the same Dao.  What dies is an expression of it due to how the energy (chi) has manifest "as" us, not "is" us. 

 

Could you please elaborate on this? What about the masters that tell us they "see" their past lives when meditating?

 

 

6 hours ago, rideforever said:

imo : effortlessly being > I guess that's the point, no more struggle.
Sages have tried to convey to others what it means and how it is to be there, they say "I see this", "I do that" ... and unawakened beings try to follow these ideas as moral rules. 

Which can indeed approximate a sense of being a sage.
But a sage is not actually following these rules, he is in an effortless state.

We can try to follow these moral rules to get a sense of it.

We can try to enter the state of the Sage by following his path of entry.

 

Does the sage has the same personality from before being a sage?

 

 

4 hours ago, Wayfarer said:

It is in Chuang Tzu, Lao Tzu and the Huainantzu.  It was the centre of debate between the 5th and 11th centuries by Chong Xuan daoists verses Buddhists.  It is also in Buddhist classics like the Heart Sutra, the Diamond Sutra, the Sutra to the 8 Bodhisattvas.

 

Can you please give us some quotes? (Daoism and Buddhism)

[freeform]

Sheng Ren

 

A Sheng Ren is a ‘sage’ said to be awakened (Wu). What this means is that they’ve fully experienced the Devine light of her Yuan Shen. Yuan Shen is the congenital ‘light’ of your true being. The experience is often a bright white light that feels almost too bright and dissolves everything that is not the true you. The experience is very transformative - life is never the same again because you have a deep realisation of your true nature beyond your Acquired Mind. This is awakening to the true nature of Self.

 

Zhen Ren

 

A Zhen Ren is a ‘true person’. They have not only experienced the light of Yuan Shen, but over time, through practice, allowed it to completely dissolve their Acquired Mind. The light of Yuan Shen is constantly present in every moment. As a result a Zhen Ren lives and acts purely from the perspective of Yuan Shen continually. They become a pure physical manifestation of Yuan Shen. A Zhen Ren has fully transformed their emotions into fully benevolent virtues - they have no attachments, ‘reactions’ or even a personality (unless they decide to take one on). They are beyond saints, closer to being a devine deity on earth. Their awareness is omnipresent and they have access to all knowledge (literally).

 

Xian

 

A Xian in an immortal (there are many different ‘sub-types’). I won’t go into this too much (not something I know much about). Basically they are able to not die if they wish. They can also dissolve their physical body into pure light and exist in the spiritual realm if they choose. 

[dwai]

13 minutes ago, freeform said:

Sheng Ren

 

A Sheng Ren is a ‘sage’ said to be awakened (Wu). What this means is that they’ve fully experienced the Devine light of her Yuan Shen. Yuan Shen is the congenital ‘light’ of your true being. The experience is often a bright white light that feels almost too bright and dissolves everything that is not the true you. The experience is very transformative - life is never the same again because you have a deep realisation of your true nature beyond your Acquired Mind. This is awakening to the true nature of Self.

That is exactly what Self-realization is. BTW is this “light as in glow in the dark kind” or the “light of awareness in which all is known kind”?

 

PS: I missed the part about "white light".

 

 The white light is an epiphenomenon. The mind interpreting what it cannot comprehend. There is also Golden light. The real light is the "Light of awareness".  

 

Edited April 29, 2019 by dwai

[freeform]

3 minutes ago, dwai said:

That is exactly what Self-realization is. BTW is this “light as in glow in the dark kind” or the “light of awareness in which all is known kind”? 

 

Yes exactly.

 

More the second ‘light of awareness in which all is known’. It’s your ‘face’ before you were born.

 

But there is also a manifestation of intensely bright light with closed eyes. Some people with deeply set religious beliefs will see Jesus or Buddha or some other ‘personification’ of this Devine light. Sometimes the light flashes like a strobe. But however it manifests there is definitely that sense of a Devine all encompassing awareness.

[dwai]

4 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

Yes exactly.

 

More the second ‘light of awareness in which all is known’. It’s your ‘face’ before you were born.

This is what Advaita Vedanta's "awakening" or "enlightenment" is. This is not something you produce. In fact, the personhood needs to go (and will dissolve) when we realize our True Nature as the "face" before we were born...

Quote

But there is also a manifestation of intensely bright light with closed eyes. Some people with deeply set religious beliefs will see Jesus or Buddha or some other ‘personification’ of this Devine light. Sometimes the light flashes like a strobe. But however it manifests there is definitely that sense of a Devine all encompassing awareness.

In Vedānta, we call this "Saguna Brahman" (or Brahman with Form and Name). This is a precursor to realization of Nirguna Brahman (Brahman without any form or name) and that the Self is none other than Nirguna Brahman.

 

There is also a very high pitch tone that can be heard. 

Edited April 29, 2019 by dwai
Added some additional epiphenomena

[freeform]

14 minutes ago, dwai said:

This is what Advaita Vedanta's "awakening" or "enlightenment" is.

 

Ok, I see. 

 

My teachers differentiate between awakening and enlightenment. Enlightenment being extremely rare, and awakening being comparatively common.

 

15 minutes ago, dwai said:

In Vedānta, we call this "Saguna Brahman" (or Brahman with Form and Name). This is a precursor to realization of Nirguna Brahman (Brahman without any form or name) and that the Self is none other than Nirguna Brahman.

 

So is Nirguna Brahman attainment equivalent to a Zheng Ren? Is it a full embodiment as pure Yuan Shen in physical form?

[freeform]

31 minutes ago, dwai said:

There is also a very high pitch tone that can be heard. 

 

Yes

[Starjumper]

13 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

That’s a Sheng Ren

 

I describe the difference in this thread.

 

So which of those would you say describes an enlightened person, or would you say there are different levels to enlightenment?

 

[dwai]

2 hours ago, freeform said:

 

Ok, I see. 

 

My teachers differentiate between awakening and enlightenment. Enlightenment being extremely rare, and awakening being comparatively common.

 

It really depends on what Perspective we look at it from. From the perspective of the Self, all are awake. From the perspective of the personality, it is a lot of work. Which is right? 

Quote

So is Nirguna Brahman attainment equivalent to a Zheng Ren? Is it a full embodiment as pure Yuan Shen in physical form?

Nirguna Brahman is not an attainment. You are already that (and so is everyone else). Advaita Vedanta’s awakening is a realization, a direct knowing that “i am that”. When the condition is right, the teacher says “Tat Tvam Asi” (you are that) and the student acknowledges “aham brahmasmi” ( I am Brahman). That’s all it takes (if the conditions are right). As to what and how the conditions are right is another topic altogether  

[Spotless]

It is not a linear path - yet one can be lost in the linear.

 

One is “on” the Path or “in” the Way - in practice while not seeking in one’s seeking.

 

No striving to attain yet attaining 

 

The binding obscurance is habit and inertia

 

In Abiding Awakening all seeking ceases, stillness awakens - “practice” continues or not.

 

Awakening can become an island - quite a sweet one - it is an island as One though it may aleady have been in Unity Awareness or yet attain it.

 

Often one attains Unity Consciousness and thinks they have attained Awakening - so much falls away in the non-competition of newly arrived Unity Consciousness - But personality is still much remaining.

 

In Awakening by so many definitions - Abiding Awakening is Enlightenment - and it certainly will include the end of suffering and the end of seeking and may well include such as spontaneous creation and many other arising in non-effort.

 

One will find constant awareness even during sleep.

 

No dreaming

 

But by experience and not modesty it is hard to use the word Enlightenment easily - the massive expansion is seemingly endless.

 

The absurd energies becoming increasingly absurd 

 

The bodies endlessly refining

 

Specs of willfulness spit in the heat

 

pasts and futures all as one or none

 

The golden light evermore pervading 

 

Enlightenment- a finite word - is to tight

 

Awakening - Abiding Awakened - this is no common shift. Getting a taste of it is exciting but by no means is it Abiding.

 

Abiding Awakening is truly beyond words - but wordless does not ascribe an ended state.

 

An Enlightening State - the Awakened Abiding Awareness has embodied Self - the subtle bodies may be far from refined and a coarse sage may arise - a wide awake diamond with some un-polished facets.

 

The lines on the face of such a one will soften over time if growth continues - or as may be the case - residual urges lead to teaching too soon and words mixed with assumption.

 

So much falls away that much that has not can be overlooked. And light that is so bright it is unbearable but again and again this falls away - as fear has no place to land.