After Enlightenment - Sainthood, Personality,

[Fa Xin]

I had to give a speech in front of a crowd today. The fear was there! I’m definitely not awake then! 🤣

 

They say public speaking is #1 fear, even beating out the fear of death. 

[dwai]

58 minutes ago, Fa Xin said:

I had to give a speech in front of a crowd today. The fear was there! I’m definitely not awake then! 🤣

 

They say public speaking is #1 fear, even beating out the fear of death. 

Public speaking is a matter of practice. You have to ask yourself, ‘is it “fear” or nervousness?’

 

 

[Fa Xin]

53 minutes ago, dwai said:

Public speaking is a matter of practice. You have to ask yourself, ‘is it “fear” or nervousness?’

 

It was more my mind getting caught up before hand.  During the actual event, I was quite relaxed and having fun.  But anxious leading up.

 

The point of my post was everything is peachy until faced with a challenge that hits on our energy structures... it's a quick reminder that there's more work that needs to be done.

 

These things are ultimately beneficial. They are the flipside to the "bliss" experienced... the yin to the yang... an opportunity for growth. And these things keep us from falling into our egos and thinking "i am done, i have arrived".  To me that is something like bypassing, or even a concept of mind.

 

My own experience is a blending of the two ideas being talked about here.  I would call it a "Straight Path", where the Goal is the path, and the path is the goal.  If the goal is union with God, well the practice is to realize you are already one with God.  But to simply tell ourselves this is a concept... we have to dive in and explore and find out for ourselves...which for me has been a long process that will never end, as there's always more to discover 

 

 

 

Edited April 30, 2019 by Fa Xin

[Nungali]

After enlightenment  ? 

 

Lay bricks .

 

(Sufi saying )

 

We need enlightened bricklayers .

 

 

  

 

 

 

 

 

 

Or ... if you are  learning to be  a doctor,  mother or helicopter engineer and learning to be enlightened  , then after enlightenment be an enlightened doctor,  nurse or helicopter engineer... we need more enlightened  doctors,  nurses and  helicopter engineers .

 

We already got enough  'enlightened ponderers  '  thanks .

 

 

 

 

Edited April 30, 2019 by Nungali

[rideforever]

8 hours ago, KuroShiro said:

Does the sage has the same personality from before being a sage?

 

The human being is a large thing and the total transformation of it rarely happens.   Normally a person has an awakening and is relieved and relaxes, this results in a lot of changes to his life.   His personality relaxes.   But the actual transformation of personality to the divine person seems to be quite rare and requires additional work.   The first step is to make oneself sane and free of suffering.   If you have done that it often already costs you your life.   Especially given we are living in a materialistic society.

[rideforever]

-

Edited April 30, 2019 by rideforever

[freeform]

9 hours ago, dwai said:

It really depends on what Perspective we look at it from. From the perspective of the Self, all are awake. From the perspective of the personality, it is a lot of work. Which is right?

 

Let’s put it this way. Are you operating fully from the perspective of your Yuan Shen (congenital self) when you ‘speak’ these words to me - or are you operating from your personality?

 

When one is operating from their Yuan Shen at the moment of saying something like ‘you’re already enlightened, you just need to realise it’ then that carries a deep message, a kind of transmission that opens the door to realising this truth. 

 

When one is operating from their personality when they say this, it’s just a useless, deluded cliche. I’m sorry if that seems harsh - but that’s just the case. 

 

Because it’s a statement beyond words and beyond personality - it needs to be backed up by actual transmission of truth - otherwise it’s empty and meaningless.

 

21 hours ago, Wayfarer said:

Nothing changes other than the realisation, so the gap has never been there, we just think that it is.

 

Again - this sort of ‘there’s no path because you’re already there’ type thing - from the point of a fully awakened primordial self is a great truth. From the perspective of a normal personality it’s just parroting the words of a wiseman - like handing out photocopied sheet music because you can’t play any instruments.

 

Its true that for all I know Wayfarer and everyone else talking this way may well be enlightened beings just trying to help the rest of us realise what’s right under our noses. However just as you’re not likely to find Warren Buffet on a stock trading forum, you’re not likely to find an enlightened person on here. That and I’m not picking up a transmission

 

I’ve met dozens of teachers that talk this way, but have no real attainment to speak of. They may have had en experience at some point, but now they’ve just subverted it into another layer of ego. And the longer they talk this way the more the delusion sets in that they’re enlightened (both in themselves and in their cohort). And that slowly morphs them into a caricature of a human being. And all the creepy power and sex stuff slowly creeps in to the organisation.

 

I’ve also met a teacher who has access to Yuan Shen - and when he talked this way he was radiating the Light and it caused an awakening in me. Because he could actually demonstrate what his words were pointing to.

 

I’m trying not to be rude. And I’m not denouncing any person - just this activity of talking as if your words are coming straight from your primordial consciousness. Let’s all just be real with each other

 

There is a reason that the Dao is translated as the Way... its a path that you take. I understand the underlying truth - ‘The Dao that can be trodden is not the unchanging Dao’... just bear in mind that that’s the first line of the Dao De Jing - it then goes on for 81 verses telling you how to walk the Dao.

 

I understand that there’s a paradox. My side of the paradox is that I’m still walking the path - with a very occasional, very brief glimpse of awakening - and so my words and behaviour match where I’m at. 

 

And again - I apologise for being offensive. That’s not my purpose. My purpose is to highlight the difference between awakened and enlightened whilst being real and not talking like an enlightened teacher - because I’m not one. Not even close. And I suspect that you’re not either - which is fine  

[Wayfarer]

Yep, no problem

[freeform]

12 hours ago, Starjumper said:

 

So which of those would you say describes an enlightened person, or would you say there are different levels to enlightenment?

 

 

I believe that a Zheng Ren is closest to ‘an enlightened person’.

 

There are probably different levels - or ‘characteristics’.

 

For example you can completely bypass the transformation of ‘the five lights’ of your emotional personality and jump straight to development of Yuan Shen.

 

Then usually your personality will stay intact but you’ll still radiate your original light... but you will not radiate the fully benevolent virtues (De) - wisdom, compassion etc.

[KuroShiro]

20 hours ago, dwai said:

In my books, enlightenment is the realization of one’s true nature. It is not some alchemical immortality or attainment of sainthood. In fact, in dharma traditions, wherein the concept of enlightenment takes a central position, does not really speak much about sainthood or alchemical immortality. In certain sects such as tantric traditions, there is that element though. However one could have great siddhis and still be far from enlightenment. 

 

In your opinion are alchemical immortality or attainment of sainthood "levels" beyond enlightenment?

 

 

20 hours ago, dwai said:

Immortality as per the wisdom traditions is in the realization of one’s true nature, which will eliminate all misconceptions and fears/psychoses  that arise from fear of death.

 

Because there is no death?

 

 

20 hours ago, dwai said:

Yet, this (enlightenment) is not a supernatural realization, or an attainment of something external. No amount of “practice” can directly cause this. It is simply a result of dropping all the personality and conditioning that obscures our true nature. It is always there. Everyone is already always enlightened, just not realized yet.

The practices only help to prepare the mind for the direct apperception of the truth. 

 

Once one realizes one’s true nature, one is free from future causality. 

 

Do you know or have any theory why is this so? I'm not referring to what causes it (personality, conditioning...) but why is it obscured? So that it can be "discovered"? Hypothetically, could we all have our personalities, conditioning and never ever got our true nature obscured in the first place?

[KuroShiro]

 

17 hours ago, freeform said:

practice is about creating the correct conditions for things to arise of their own accord.

 

I like this sentence, are you describing Wu Wei?

 

 

1 hour ago, freeform said:

Are you operating fully from the perspective of your Yuan Shen (congenital self) when you ‘speak’ these words to me - or are you operating from your personality?

 

1 hour ago, freeform said:

For example you can completely bypass the transformation of ‘the five lights’ of your emotional personality and jump straight to development of Yuan Shen.

 

Then usually your personality will stay intact but you’ll still radiate your original light... but you will not radiate the fully benevolent virtues (De) - wisdom, compassion etc.

 

Could you please elaborate further regarding what you're talking about here and Wu Xing?

 

Not that a ‘true person’ would need acupuncture treatment but do you know if Wu Xing theory from Classical Chinese Medicine still applies to a Zhen Ren?

Edited April 30, 2019 by KuroShiro

[dwai]

3 hours ago, freeform said:

 

Let’s put it this way. Are you operating fully from the perspective of your Yuan Shen (congenital self) when you ‘speak’ these words to me - or are you operating from your personality?

There IS no personality. It is just a combination of circumstances that make it seem real.  

3 hours ago, freeform said:

When one is operating from their Yuan Shen at the moment of saying something like ‘you’re already enlightened, you just need to realise it’ then that carries a deep message, a kind of transmission that opens the door to realising this truth. 

Personalities never get enlightened. Enlightenment is freedom from the personality  

3 hours ago, freeform said:

When one is operating from their personality when they say this, it’s just a useless, deluded cliche. I’m sorry if that seems harsh - but that’s just the case. 

We have to go with what feels right. I’m not your teacher nor do I care to be anyone’s teacher.  

3 hours ago, freeform said:

Because it’s a statement beyond words and beyond personality - it needs to be backed up by actual transmission of truth - otherwise it’s empty and meaningless.

How would you know if such a transmission isn’t already working? Even the planting of a seed is a transmission. It works in the simplest of ways. Makes you think. That is part of the wisdom path. 

3 hours ago, freeform said:

Again - this sort of ‘there’s no path because you’re already there’ type thing - from the point of a fully awakened primordial self is a great truth. From the perspective of a normal personality it’s just parroting the words of a wiseman - like handing out photocopied sheet music because you can’t play any instruments.

Well obviously if you feel like you are your personality, you are still veiled and need to work on cleaning up your mind (by you I mean anyone really). 

3 hours ago, freeform said:

Its true that for all I know Wayfarer and everyone else talking this way may well be enlightened beings just trying to help the rest of us realise what’s right under our noses. However just as you’re not likely to find Warren Buffet on a stock trading forum, you’re not likely to find an enlightened person on here. That and I’m not picking up a transmission

 I enjoyed what wayfarer posted. And I did see the truth in what he wrote. 

3 hours ago, freeform said:

I’ve met dozens of teachers that talk this way, but have no real attainment to speak of. They may have had en experience at some point, but now they’ve just subverted it into another layer of ego. And the longer they talk this way the more the delusion sets in that they’re enlightened (both in themselves and in their cohort). And that slowly morphs them into a caricature of a human being. And all the creepy power and sex stuff slowly creeps in to the organisation.

I’ve met a few such too. But it seems there’s a lot we can learn from such folks too. 

3 hours ago, freeform said:

I’ve also met a teacher who has access to Yuan Shen - and when he talked this way he was radiating the Light and it caused an awakening in me. Because he could actually demonstrate what his words were pointing to.

 very nice! 

3 hours ago, freeform said:

 

I’m trying not to be rude. And I’m not denouncing any person - just this activity of talking as if your words are coming straight from your primordial consciousness. Let’s all just be real with each other

 okay let’s be real. Where does any word come from? I say that the best way to find out whether one is truly free or not is to see how he/she lives. If that person’s life is reflective of their purported state. Like you said, we know when we meet and interact with such people. 

3 hours ago, freeform said:

There is a reason that the Dao is translated as the Way... its a path that you take. I understand the underlying truth - ‘The Dao that can be trodden is not the unchanging Dao’... just bear in mind that that’s the first line of the Dao De Jing - it then goes on for 81 verses telling you how to walk the Dao.

 

I understand that there’s a paradox. My side of the paradox is that I’m still walking the path - with a very occasional, very brief glimpse of awakening - and so my words and behaviour match where I’m at. 

Yes, the paradox needs to be pondered. Not ignored because Lao Tzu said “the dao that can be trodden is not the real dao”. 

3 hours ago, freeform said:

And again - I apologise for being offensive. That’s not my purpose. My purpose is to highlight the difference between awakened and enlightened whilst being real and not talking like an enlightened teacher - because I’m not one. Not even close. And I suspect that you’re not either - which is fine  

 

 I don’t see any difference. Just saying words doesn’t make one any more awakened than it makes them enlightened. And also, personalities doesn’t awaken/get enlightened. When you understand this, you’ll understand what I meant  

[rideforever]

Why did any teacher teach, if there was nothing to do ?
Why ... because there is someone to do, and someone to do it.

The ego is false, you can chop it up into kalpas and find it empty.

At least at the beginning, it is empty at the beginning.

But if you "practice" then the fuel of the ego is used to fill the vehicle with the source, creating a microcosm.
The vehicle then holds a microcosm of the macrocosm.

This feels to the ego like disappearing, but then there is a jump of consciousness into being.
I Am.

And that is why people taught spirituality for thousands of years, it is the secret to becoming a microcosm.

The microcosm is also not just one thing, it has centres, chakras and so on.

 

But something else strange.

It seems on further detailed inspection by various people of a variety of colours, that in fact the ego personality was not empty anyway, it was just broken.   Somehow, and this is still not quite clear, but the human being identity should in fact be spiritual, but they keep breaking it.  And then they live in an emergency-mode-ego in a dream where they don't know ass from elbow.

And this breaking is so bad that they do it generation after generation and totally lose their way.

 

This seems to be because the human is a new design, it is an animal (which is ancient), with sitting on top of the shoulders is this complex mind ... which is newer and not quite stable, the head of a human is like a first draft.   When the society is in a bad state what happens is the humans revert to the animal as the basis of their existence making most decisions from the solar plexus, and then the brain being not understood at all, is sort of used as a fifth "arm".   Meaning it is used functionally, to see things and make thoughts but in a very low way.

It's like they don't understand their brain so they revert to the previously stable state, of the animal, and then use their brain as a tool.   They don't understand being in the brain, they no longer understand being present in the brain or of existing as their normal identity, they revert to a lower identity.

 

Unfortunately the brain if used in this lower way is not very happy and can start to corrupt the animal part of human beings, undoing the previously healthy foundation.   And then all hell breaks loose.

 

Also the ego in emergency mode, after some years of sitting in the head develops a sort of stability which needs to be dissolved, which often contains many negative feelings resulting from being half mad and attacking everyone including yourself.   Wow what a mess.

 

Occasionally someone comes down here to tell people to plug into the Source.   Why do they say this ?   Do they not have something more sophisticated to say ?   We can be grateful for the big teachers, but in fact their explanations and descriptions and practices, are not as good as one might wish.   And it's not that we are too stupid to understand.   The practices themselves are not so very good I'm afraid.   Nevertheless if that's the best we have, that's the best we have.

 

Anyway these things are my understanding that I have been told.

 

Edited May 1, 2019 by rideforever

[freeform]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

There IS no personality. It is just a combination of circumstances that make it seem real. 

 

There IS no combination of one thing with another thing. All things and non-things are one. If you don’t see that yet you’re totally asleep man. And by ‘you’ I also mean ‘me’ and everyone else - because we’re all one, abiding in the unfoldment of the present...

 

There are no circumstances man - for there is only one ever-present circumstance of oneness.

 

There is no real or unreal... Everything is both real and unreal at the same time... and time is not real either... and real too...

 

1 hour ago, dwai said:

Well obviously if you feel like you are your personality, you are still veiled and need to work on cleaning up your mind

 

What do you mean ‘your personality’? - there is no You - there is no I. We are all one everythingness man. You’re totally stuck in the western consumerist paradigm dude.

 

What personality!? There is no such thing as personality there’s only the appearance of personality but even that appearance is just an illusion because everything is oneness and pure beingness... wake up dude.

 

 

Actually it’s quite fun to talk like this... maybe I’ll carry on this way from now on! 

[dwai]

3 hours ago, KuroShiro said:

 

In your opinion are alchemical immortality or attainment of sainthood "levels" beyond enlightenment?

No. IMHO Alchemical immortality is a misnomer and its pursuit a trap. 

3 hours ago, KuroShiro said:

 

 

Because there is no death?

 

The Self doesn't really exist in space and time. So there IS no death per se. It depends on our level of identification with the body.

3 hours ago, KuroShiro said:

 

Do you know or have any theory why is this so? I'm not referring to what causes it (personality, conditioning...) but why is it obscured? So that it can be "discovered"? Hypothetically, could we all have our personalities, conditioning and never ever got our true nature obscured in the first place?

The traditional answer is "Maya". It is the creative power of Awareness, which veils the true nature from us, who appear to exist, in an appearance called the "Universe".  

Watch this video for a good explanation.

Spoiler

https://youtu.be/deiWXECJatY

 

Or a deeper explanation here --

Spoiler

 

The paradox is, that when realization happens, it becomes apparent that the true nature was never really obscured. It is hard to explain in words. We can discuss a bit more in-depth if you like. 

[dwai]

8 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

There IS no combination of one thing with another thing. All things and non-things are one. If you don’t see that yet you’re totally asleep man. And by ‘you’ I also mean ‘me’ and everyone else - because we’re all one, abiding in the unfoldment of the present...

 

There are no circumstances man - for there is only one ever-present circumstance of oneness.

 

There is no real or unreal... Everything is both real and unreal at the same time... and time is not real either... and real too...

 

 

What do you mean ‘your personality’? - there is no You - there is no I. We are all one everythingness man. You’re totally stuck in the western consumerist paradigm dude.

 

What personality!? There is no such thing as personality there’s only the appearance of personality but even that appearance is just an illusion because everything is oneness and pure beingness... wake up dude.

 

  in time, all will be revealed grasshopper!

8 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

Actually it’s quite fun to talk like this... maybe I’ll carry on this way from now on! 

Its all fun and games  

[freeform]

3 minutes ago, dwai said:

  in time, all will be revealed grasshopper!

 

Dude seriously...

 

You still believe in time!?

 

Wake up man.

 

And how can anything be revealed when nothing is hidden from the light of the ever present I AM consciousness bro?!

[thelerner]

I believe in time.

Why else would I collect wrist watches?

 every now and then a watch stops. 

and I've captures time, itself, forever. 

 

 

 

.

Edited May 1, 2019 by thelerner

[welkin]

Your body is the way to enlightenment. all the experiences in life, one carries in the body. Find where you carry those experiences and feelings and release them so that you can get back to the physical flexible state of an infant or a baby. In other words, "don't think, feel"

[freeform]

8 minutes ago, welkin said:

Your body is the way to enlightenment.

 

Yup - it’s definitely one way. 

 

But most importantly whichever way you take to get to ‘enlightenment’ - after enlightenment your body is physically transformed.

 

If I explained some of the physical aspects then it would sound like the supernatural ravings of a woowoo madman.

 

When people talk of enlightenment as ‘just a realisation’ - they are talking about something other than enlightenment as I’ve described. 

 

They're talking about an important milestone - something many aim for but few ever reach.

 

But in terms of spiritual cultivation it is literally just the very start. It is the discovery of your Spiritual self - the development of this eventually leads to actual enlightenment which is the full transformation of every aspect of you (including the physical) as the full embodiment of the pure Light of your Spiritual self.

 

For someone who’s had a glimpse of ‘awakening’ this is either disheartening to hear or it’s exciting to hear. Because as amazing as it is - it is just the start

[welkin]

4 minutes ago, freeform said:

If I explained some of the physical aspects then it would sound like the supernatural ravings of a woowoo madman.

 

 

 

I am all ears on this one or eyes..

 

4 minutes ago, freeform said:

But in terms of spiritual cultivation it is literally just the very start. It is the discovery of your Spiritual self - the development of this eventually leads to actual enlightenment which is the full transformation of every aspect of you (including the physical) as the full embodiment of the pure Light of your Spiritual self.

 

For someone who’s had a glimpse of ‘awakening’ this is either disheartening to hear or it’s exciting to hear. Because as amazing as it is - it is just the start

 

Can totally see this.. The message though that's been very consistent is that, it's never done. There's always something to improve.

 

I only mentioned the physical side of it because it seems to me that a lot is always talked about the thinking, or mental realization of things. I thought this was what it mainly was as well. Until i realized only through catastrophic injury, that the level of awareness one can have of the body is incredibly deep. Something tells me the mind body soul, it's all just one thing. But it's like you gotta nurture each one fully, But honestly, idk. There's something about the body that makes me think it has a mind of its own. And not in the cliched sense, how it's discussed. I mean like the more you understand it or release its traumas, the mind literally shifts into new thought. And maybe the more you are able to do with the physical body in the physical realm, the more one awakens.

 

That's why i wonder if the body might be the true key that unlocks everything else. i believe that's how the masters move up the levels of their respective practices.

 

I wonder... if one is actually supposed to make their body the core importance by which we do and create everything around us. That would impact practically all industries, that have an effect on all physical bodies.

clothes, shoes, wearables, technology, etc.

 

I wonder how much easier it would be to reach enlightenment or even find the road to get there, if these bases were covered under a much more conscious philosophy.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 1, 2019 by welkin

[freeform]

1 hour ago, welkin said:

 

I am all ears on this one

 

I know it’s a total tease - I didn’t mean for that.

 

But I realised that I should ask what from my personal experiences is appropriate to share openly and what isn’t.

 

Suffice it to say that the ‘miracles’ that most of us are familiar with are literal. Not hyperbole, not exaggeration, not metaphors but real physical abilities.

Edited May 1, 2019 by freeform

[freeform]

So the general rebuttal to something like this takes on two general forms.

 

1) You poor wretch - you’ve been fooled. Well I have been taken for a ride by a number of teachers not in relation to this sort of thing. But this has made me quite skeptical and discerning (a quality greatly appreciated by my current teachers). Of course there are many cons going on. I’m aware of them. These are not things that can be tricked and there is absolutely no motives for the people in question to trick anyone - no money changing hands, no recognition or publicity (in fact there’s a very careful ‘firewall’ to avoid these) - no gain apparent.

 

2) You poor thing, you think enlightenment has something to do with supernatural abilities - these are just low level siddhis - real enlightenment is just a simple recognition of truth etc. These normally come from people who have no such abilities, have no authentic lineage and are just using platitudes to not have to face their delusions. 

 

Over a decade ago, in my seeking days, I asked Michael Winn why he and other HT teachers don’t project Qi to help their students. He covered both 1) and 2) in his answer (without seeing the inherent contradiction)

 

But the truth is he can’t do it and because he’s such a well known teacher, he’s never put himself in the humble position to experience Qi projection from another teacher. 

 

The truth is that this is very common in authentic Qigong circles - and really not that special - but to face that fact he’d have to throw out the decades of teaching he’s been part of as well as jeopardise his livelihood. If I was in his shoes, I don’t think I’d be willing to take my blinkers off either.

[ilumairen]

Quote

I find it amusing how we have the preconception that a Master must be a “saint”. Even after enlightenment, certain personality traits will remain. Otherwise, the personality would become extremely boring 

 

On 4/29/2019 at 10:09 AM, dwai said:

Yet, this (enlightenment) is not a supernatural realization, or an attainment of something external. No amount of “practice” can directly cause this. It is simply a result of dropping all the personality and conditioning that obscures our true nature

 

Could you rectify these seemingly opposing statements?

[ilumairen]

On 4/30/2019 at 10:15 AM, freeform said:

 

There IS no combination of one thing with another thing. All things and non-things are one. If you don’t see that yet you’re totally asleep man. And by ‘you’ I also mean ‘me’ and everyone else - because we’re all one, abiding in the unfoldment of the present...

 

There are no circumstances man - for there is only one ever-present circumstance of oneness.

 

There is no real or unreal... Everything is both real and unreal at the same time... and time is not real either... and real too...

 

 

What do you mean ‘your personality’? - there is no You - there is no I. We are all one everythingness man. You’re totally stuck in the western consumerist paradigm dude.

 

What personality!? There is no such thing as personality there’s only the appearance of personality but even that appearance is just an illusion because everything is oneness and pure beingness... wake up dude.

 

 

Actually it’s quite fun to talk like this... maybe I’ll carry on this way from now on! 

 

Please don't.