After Enlightenment - Sainthood, Personality,

[ilumairen]

 

Quote

 

I think there’s a certain preciousness to these arts. Dwai said that after his experience of awakening, he realised that there is nothing to protect - that this state is a natural aspect of what it means to be human and will always be accessible.

 

Which is true - in the case of ‘Awakening’.

 

I keep coming back to this point because it’s crucial.

 

The development that takes you further than awakening - that eventually takes it into a physical manifestation of your primordial spirit - enlightenment, is a really subtle, delicate process. It is not natural. It has been painstakingly developed, refined and passed down generation after generation.

 

My teachers tell me that going beyond the first Jhanna (which is the experience of awakening) - one needs a master that has achieved the next Jhanna to help you along at a point when you’re just about to break through.

 

Jhanna or Chan (in Chinese) is the very first step. It is accessible to all. The other 8 Jhannas are very difficult and they require precise practices, conduct and assistance by ones who have achieved them.

 

Sure the first one is great, but it doesn’t mean that we should let the rest die out because we already feel at peace and at ease.

 

On 5/3/2019 at 9:36 AM, freeform said:

In fact it should be pretty simple - if just one of us is enlightened, he or she would know everyone else that is also enlightened.

 

In fact you don’t even have to be enlightened. Apparently when you reach the 4th Jhanna and above, you know every single individual that has also received this attainment or the equivalent and where they are in the world

 

Actually if anyone is enlightened they are omniscient and have access to all knowledge. So they’d be able to tell us anything we’d like to know at whatever level of detail we’d like...

 

so... what did I have for lunch today?

 

1 hour ago, manitou said:

All I know about this, is that there is a well of information, not known previously to my brain-thoughts, that will bubble up when needed.  All this talk of enlightenment is subjective.  Some would give the impression that there is only one path.  Surely this is not the case.  The well of information, as I know it, is actually like a channel.  The words are drawn from you almost without your consent, they just come.  It's just a matter of stilling the mind and waiting for the answers - and it's immediate.  This is all such mysterious stuff.  I went through a period of time where I would have lucid dreams where ancient scrolls were being 'downloaded' into my brain.  The scrolls were right in front of my eyes, moving, unfolding.  Everybody's experience is different out of necessity.

 

Putting this together.. 

 

I believe freeform is speaking to a point where (because there is absolutely no separation [largely ego/personality inclinations that can distort/cloud perception]) one actually abides in a state where anything and everything can be known. 

 

And in what manitou shared the connection to "higher self" is strong enough that many things can also be known. 

 

The only difference is "connectivity"..

 

And it is the same "well" that is being "drunk" from. 

 

43 minutes ago, dwai said:

That's very important. I think there's a misconception with regards to "know everything". What does "everything" means in terms of non-dual realization? Is there even an "everything" in nonduality?  

The saying "The realized sage knows everything without going anywhere" doesn't mean the sage becomes omniscient (though that is a siddhi that can be cultivated). The "knowing everything" means the realization that there is nothing that needs to be known, nothing to be sought after anymore, as there is completeness in non dual realization.

 

 

 

I am glad you mentioned the siddhi - even as you minimized it. 

 

[ilumairen]

Or perhaps it's a difference of drinking from a well, and becoming the well..

[dwai]

52 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

Or perhaps it's a difference of drinking from a well, and becoming the well..

@Jeff once told me a very valuable thing. Don’t just connect to the light, be the light  

 

 

[ilumairen]

3 minutes ago, dwai said:

@Jeff once told me a very valuable thing. Don’t just connect to the light, be the light  

 

Perhaps freeform is pointing in a similar matter - but with enough words that argument and issues arise?

[dwai]

4 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

 

Perhaps freeform is pointing in a similar matter - but with enough words that argument and issues arise?

 I know what he’s saying. That is not the same thing.

 

Being the light doesn’t mean you know everything or that you become physically immortal. 

 

But everyone is entitled to their own fantasy  

 

[Pilgrim]

5 minutes ago, dwai said:

 I know what he’s saying. That is not the same thing.

 

Being the light doesn’t mean you know everything or that you become physically immortal. 

 

But everyone is entitled to their own fantasy  

 

Shhh don't ruin folks enthusiasm. 

[ilumairen]

39 minutes ago, dwai said:

 I know what he’s saying. That is not the same thing.

 

Being the light doesn’t mean you know everything or that you become physically immortal. 

 

But everyone is entitled to their own fantasy  

 

 

:sigh:

 

Pointing in a similar matter does not mean pointing at the same thing. 

 

I have had enough experiences with what manitou expressed to see the possibility/potentiality, and also enough experience with personal whatever getting in the way to understand what freeform is pointing towards. 

 

Subtle is indeed an apt descriptor, and it seems to me the more one delves into the subtle the more the door to "information" opens.. perhaps it is nothing more than expansion of awareness, although that too can certainly be downplayed to accommodate inclusion.

 

Anyway.. have a good day dwai. 

 

[ilumairen]

12 hours ago, Pilgrim said:

Shhh don't ruin folks enthusiasm.

Edited May 5, 2019 by ilumairen

[ilumairen]

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Edited May 5, 2019 by ilumairen

[Starjumper]

I like what Nungali said:  after enlightenment lay bricks.

 

There is a different aspect of nei kung cultivation which I think is much more interesting and more preferred than enlightenment and that is physical toughness.  Physical toughness keeps you from breaking too easily when you get old.

 

As an example, we had two horses mowing the grass around the house a couple of days ago and it was time to take them out of the gate for the evening.  One of them is a big beautiful strong Pinto horse (the locals call them Apache horses).  Her nickname is big bitch because she rules over the other horses.  She doesn't like to get her halter put on or to get put out to pasture, so I put my arm around her neck in order to sneak the halter on from under her chin.  Well she didn't want that so she reared way up.  Since I had my arm around her neck she took me up with her and caused me to fall on my butt.  My main concern on hitting the ground was to not get stepped on when she came down.  So there I was, a seventy year old man falling on my butt on the hard ground, but it wasn't like falling from a standing position, it was like falling from a place two feet higher (or more, I didn't have my tape measure handy) and crashing on the ground.  I could have let go of her neck and then wouldn't have been picked up, but I thought I could hold on.   I suppose a fall like that could make some seventy year olds shatter into some little pieces, and I did get hurt.  My lowest disk would have gotten smashed, but the good news is it already has been smashed and isn't there any more.  It hurt a lot to move, to sit, to stand up, and I didn't think I would be able to do chi kung the next morning because it has a lot of strenuous bending.  Instead the next morning I hardly felt it and doing chi kung was no problem.  Even driving to the gate with my car, which has the hardest suspension in the world, on a very rough dirt road, hardly caused a twinge of pain.  Also I presume that many people with three disks missing in their lower back would be in a wheelchair, so chi kung has saved my life in yet another way.

 

I think that kind of thing is more valuable than enlightenment.

 

There are similar stories in the literature.  Like my Yang tai chi teacher, grandmaster Tchoung Ta Tchen, who was a general in the Chinese army (better than the local WMCA tai chi teacher), punched this skinny little old man in the stomach so hard that he went flying back about eight feet and crashed on some boulders, then the old fart jumped up and came back and said "Hit me again", so  'POW' he went flying back and crashing on the rocks again.  Then he got up, unhurt, and introduced himself.  He was the abbott of the local mountaintop Taoist hermitage.  He also was going all over the mountain in freezing cold weather wearing nothing but a loincloth while Tchoung had to be heavily bundled up to keep from freezing.  It wasn't in the literature before but it is now, because it's in my book.

 

I think that kind of thing is more valuable than enlightenment.

Edited May 5, 2019 by Starjumper

[KuroShiro]

On 5/2/2019 at 8:19 AM, freeform said:

I believe that there was a ‘golden age’ of spiritual cultivation. Everything we have now comes from that time.

 

Do you have a place/time for it?

 

 

On 5/2/2019 at 6:58 PM, dwai said:

The primary qualification required for spiritual knowledge is suffering. Unless one has suffered enough in their life, there will not be an overwhelming drive to find the solution (aka seeking). There are exceptions of course, but without suffering, usually dabbling in the spiritual path remains a hobby at best. 

 

On 5/2/2019 at 6:58 PM, dwai said:

A sincerity of purpose is required, and the primary cause of said sincerity is suffering. When you are suffering, you will sincerely seek its cessation.

 

Very interesting could you please elaborate? (are there any teachings/books about this?)

Do you think there's something else regarding suffering, besides sincerely seek its cessation, that connect us to the Divine?

 

 

n 5/3/2019 at 12:51 PM, freeform said:

Calm equanimity and emotions is a contradiction

 

There's no contradiction but never mind.

 

On 5/3/2019 at 12:51 PM, freeform said:

Why?

 

Because of the very nature of the practice.

 

On 5/3/2019 at 12:51 PM, freeform said:

Its different. You’re not engaging your imagination. Your memory is already there - you’re not ‘creating’ anything, you’re just training your skill of perfect recollection

 

To me it seems the same/very similar. The visualization of the mco uses a pathway that's already there, Qi is already circulating through that pathway.

 

On 5/3/2019 at 12:51 PM, freeform said:

This specific method is part of the Longmen Pai system and it’s there for a specific reason - creating a specific condition - not just for general memory improvement. It just has that side effect.

 

Yes, of course. Can you tell when it's introduced? To the beginner or more advanced student?

 

[Starjumper]

I have another post enlightenment story   See, I'm working on my next book already.  Writing a book is way less burden than taking on a new student, particularly if you need money.

 

There's another aspect of nei kung (real nei kung) cultivation that people who focus on enlightenment (which usually prevents attaining it) neglect, and that is becoming agile, which goes hand in hand with physical toughness and strength.

 

Once upon a time I went to the skating rink with a friend in Seattle, we brought our wives and daughters.  I hardly ever go skating so I'm not very stable at it, really a beginner.  This one time I decided to try to skate as fast as possible so I really turned up the effort and was going really fast.  Then since I was unstable I tripped and went flying head first.  It would have been a face plant on the ice, but instead I flipped over on my back so I was speeding along head first upside down.  Then when my back hit the ice I brought my legs up and did a backwards summersault.  When my feet came around and hit the ice I jumped straight up, at which point I was traveling backwards above the ice at seventy miles per hour, or something.  Then I twisted 180 degrees in the air so I was facing forwards, and when I landed I kept right on skating at the same high speed.  There was an ice rink worker standing to the side.  His mouth was hanging open for some reason.  Maybe because he never saw a wobbly old man with white hair do that kind of thing.  He asked:  "Are you OK?" as I whizzed by, and as usual, I didn't say anything.

 

I think that kind of thing is more valuable than enlightenment.

 

Keep in mind I never practiced this kind of thing before (except for a couple of months of kindergarten level Aikido twenty years earlier), it just popped out spontaneously.  That ability must have been due to what some people call 'transmissions' from the teacher, or from past life stuff, but probably it was mostly due to the way our chi kung improves core strength, balance, and reflexes to the level of mastery, or adept.   Real nei kung covers ALL the bases! and don't let any amateurs tell you anything different.

 

Edit: I didn't plan the reactions, it all happened way too fast for thinking, it just popped out automatically

Edited May 5, 2019 by Starjumper

[dwai]

 

2 hours ago, KuroShiro said:

 

Very interesting could you please elaborate? (are there any teachings/books about this?)

Do you think there's something else regarding suffering, besides sincerely seek its cessation, that connect us to the Divine?

All dharmic spiritual traditions are based on this.

 

Take Buddhism for example. The Buddha didn’t set out to seek immortality or a rainbow body.

 

His immediate concern was an explanation of why people suffer, and what the purpose of life was. And to find out how we can end the suffering. 

 

Hindu traditions consider the very cycle of birth and rebirth the greatest suffering. The nondual traditions seek to transcend this by ending the cycle (freedom), the dualistic traditions seek to transcend this by surrendering the little self to God.

 

Wrt suffering itself, there can be multiple levels in which it can be looked at. For some, suffering entails some physiological disorder. For others it is grinding poverty. For yet others it is mental disorders.

 

I’ll venture to say the greatest source of suffering in the modern world today is rampant materialism. I’m sure there tomes written on the nature of the modern society and it’s ills. So I’ll point only this one out. Materialism presupposes that happiness can be obtained by acquiring objects. 

Get the fancy car/house/partner/job etc etc (fill in the blanks here) and you will be happy. But it never ends. The acquiring becomes compulsive and we jump from momentary pleasure to momentary pleasure. Along with it comes the fear of loss and the aversion to it. Pleasure begets pain. Resistance to pain causes suffering.

 

Really the materialistic outlook is a misplaced understanding of what happiness is, and therefore seeks it outside, in things. What is happening is that there is a primordial programming within us, which is supposed to get us to look inward, instead of being engrossed in the “world” and it’s objects. Suffering leads us towards this “inward looking”. 

 

More later....(if there’s interest).  

 

[Fa Xin]

Suffering is quite the motivator...

[freeform]

15 hours ago, dwai said:

I think there's a misconception with regards to "know everything".

 

Nope - it’s literal. 

 

This is is not speculation or interpretation of texts, it’s from meeting one that knows everything and is omniscient. Literally.

 

[freeform]

14 hours ago, dwai said:

But everyone is entitled to their own fantasy

 

14 hours ago, Pilgrim said:

Shhh don't ruin folks enthusiasm. 

 

 

Entrenched views seems to run deep in this ‘awake’ crowd.

 

But I understand - feeling that the validity of your experience is being questioned is disconcerting. Especially if you believe that you’ve reached the pinnacle of spiritual attainment - mastered the 8 Jhannas etc.

 

If only they saw that it’s not the validity of their experience that’s being questioned - that it’s just a nudge - pointing to the fact that there’s more. A lot more.

 

But the nudge isn’t really for you guys, it’s for others interested in the spiritual path. They need to know that the path starts at awakening. Otherwise the rest of the path will be forgotten

[Wu Ming Jen]

If there is after enlightenment then one is weak, complacent and a quitter satisfied with superficial accomplishments.

 

If one thinks they are enlightened then they have made a major error, a miscalculation sending one off into the wrong direction..

 

There is a sky above the sky meaning the work is never done, no beginning, no end, existent, non existent, with form, without form all at this moment and forever.

 

 

[freeform]

12 hours ago, KuroShiro said:

Yes, of course. Can you tell when it's introduced? To the beginner or more advanced student?

 

It’s usually introduced at the intermediate stage. Before pre-heaven practice begins.

 

12 hours ago, KuroShiro said:

To me it seems the same/very similar. The visualization of the mco uses a pathway that's already there, Qi is already circulating through that pathway.

 

Ok - I see how it can seem similar. When you burn a DVD on your computer it takes more time and more energy. When you read a DVD it’s actually a completely different process.

 

This practice is aimed to develop faultless reading of the DVD. When you’re imagining energy moving, you’re creating an image of your body - that’s creation, you’re imagining energy - also creation, you’re imagining movement etc etc. 

 

Your muscles are already there - you don’t need to imagine activating them, moving nerve impulses from your brain down the spine then through your nerves to the muscles... you just move them. 

 

You could ‘listen’ with your awareness and ‘hear’ what happens when you move your muscles.

 

Thats the difference. Hopefully that makes some sense

[welkin]

9 hours ago, dwai said:

I’ll venture to say the greatest source of suffering in the modern world today is rampant materialism. I’m sure there tomes written on the nature of the modern society and it’s ills. So I’ll point only this one out. Materialism presupposes that happiness can be obtained by acquiring objects. 

Get the fancy car/house/partner/job etc etc (fill in the blanks here) and you will be happy. But it never ends. The acquiring becomes compulsive and we jump from momentary pleasure to momentary pleasure. Along with it comes the fear of loss and the aversion to it. Pleasure begets pain. Resistance to pain causes suffering.

 

Really the materialistic outlook is a misplaced understanding of what happiness is, and therefore seeks it outside, in things. What is happening is that there is a primordial programming within us, which is supposed to get us to look inward, instead of being engrossed in the “world” and it’s objects. Suffering leads us towards this “inward looking”. 

 

More later....(if there’s interest).  

 

 

Please more. Always interested

 

On the suffering through materialism though. Could it be that this is not the right suffering that leads to enlightenment? This seems to be more like the type of suffering that is imposed on oneself based on the current state of the world and those in power. This type of suffering seems to me to do the opposite. It's like the type of suffering specifically created in replacement of honest suffering, that may come from questioning the status quo and suffering as a result of standing ones ground in every situation including when you're alone.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[welkin]

There might be enough suffering from questioning everything, caring too much, loving too much, being rejected, getting backstabbed, the life you're born in. In other words, there might be enough suffering if one is in true route to enlightenment. Which means discovering truth, by whichever means even if means ones self can be hurt.

 

Quite possibly i may be speaking out of ignorance. But although yes it may very well take a life predestined/created for you in order to experience just the right circumstances in life to become truly enlightened, i believe one can have and even create the drive, discipline, courage, sincerity, hope, purpose to decide to live a suffering life out of purpose however. To find truth. The problem is that this hurts A LOT.

 

I would tell my cousin stories of how i would purposely act dumb in front of people just to see how they act. He asked me is there a purpose why i do this if there seemed to be no benefit from it. Everyone just wants a social benefit . "Networking", making "friends"

 

I responded that i didn't really know, other than i like seeing people's true nature. I would purposely put myself in situation where i could get hurt. But not for no reason. But For reasons such as taking the blame for things, speaking woo woo inspirational ways of thinking and doing that was tangible, but to the average mind was not.

I now believe i know why I was doing all this. To know what the human mind is.

 

Fellow Dao Bum, Everything, explained to me and showed me a video in this thread that that to a certain degree explains things:

 

[Fa Xin]

14 minutes ago, welkin said:

 

Please more. Always interested

 

On the suffering through materialism though. Could it be that this is not the right suffering that leads to enlightenment? This seems to be more like the type of suffering that is imposed on oneself based on the current state of the world and those in power. This type of suffering seems to me to do the opposite. It's like the type of suffering specifically created in replacement of honest suffering, that may come from questioning the status quo and suffering as a result of standing ones ground in every situation including when you're alone.

 

To me, suffering is suffering... yes there's different kinds, but they all push us in the same general direction -- to seek out the truth of our experience.

 

I think that the "suffering through materialism" would (hopefully) lead to the questioning of the status quo, which may lead to something further down the line...which leads to something else.

 

It's also my view that this process unfolds over days, months, years, lifetimes.

Edited May 5, 2019 by Fa Xin

[welkin]

8 minutes ago, Fa Xin said:

 

To me, suffering is suffering... yes there's different kinds, but they all push us in the same general direction -- to seek out the truth of our experience.

 

I agree with you about it objectively speaking Fa Xin. Everyone has their own journeys and what sufferings they will deal with in each life. However, if the information is present. Could one instead choose to suffer and learn the lessons from certain sufferings that may not be as conducive to enlightenment, more quickly if one is aware of it. And experiment more quickly with truths? As in being aware that there is probably a lot of different types of sufferings in this world. The obvious path most choose is to not suffer for things they may not find important or necessary.

 

Possibly, things that would kill the ego. And it's difficult to let the ego die. Hard to let ones maybe "self" die. I'm currently having issues letting a certain part of myself die.

 

 

Edited May 5, 2019 by welkin

[Fa Xin]

Just now, welkin said:

 

I agree with you about it objectively speaking Fa Xin. Everyone has their own journeys and what sufferings they will deal with in each life. However, if the information is present. Could one instead choose to suffer and learn the lessons from certain sufferings that may not be as conducive to enlightenment, more quickly if one is aware of it. And experiment more quickly with truths? As in being aware that there is probably a lot of different types of sufferings in this world. The obvious path most choose is to not suffer for things they may not find important or necessary.

 

 

 

Yes I think awareness plays a big role in it.  Being fully aware and present in each moment, we can probably avoid certain situations that would lead to suffering.  

 

But many times we cannot choose what bothers us, it runs deeper than that.  For my own experience, I've found whatever is bothering me at the moment is the thing I need to learn from / work on / sit with.

 

The idea being that "God" knows better than I, so I defer to "going with the flow", rather than choosing.  Life is our best teacher

 

[welkin]

1 hour ago, Fa Xin said:

 

Yes I think awareness plays a big role in it.  Being fully aware and present in each moment, we can probably avoid certain situations that would lead to suffering.  

 

But many times we cannot choose what bothers us, it runs deeper than that.  For my own experience, I've found whatever is bothering me at the moment is the thing I need to learn from / work on / sit with.

 

The idea being that "God" knows better than I, so I defer to "going with the flow", rather than choosing.  Life is our best teacher

 

 

Can you explain what your definition of what going with the flow means? I think whether that's the right direction to go is is really dependent on what that means.

 

I also feel that flow may appear in ways that may not be what our current mind idea of flow is. Countless times i wanted to "flow", yet i couldn't. And maybe it was too much ego or it may be that there is a difference in flow of consciousness and mind.

 

Want to clarify that i do agree with the idea of flow. I just think that flow might be more hidden than we think. I guess one would only know if one is fully awake.

 

I also want to clarify, i'm drawing certain conclusions based off looking back at my life and connecting the dots. Though you could argue that i'm just trying find significance in the things that happened in my life or the non "flowing" decisions i made.

 

Which brings me to another question. Is it dangerous to look for significance and creating the future by doing what i mentioned above, finding significance connecting the dots? I came to this realization in what i guess some could call an enlightenment early this year. It was a form of enlightenment that i had not experienced before. Though i don't believe i am enlightened, because i am still suffering a lot. Though, it could also be that one can be enlightened, but still letting the ego run free with certain possessions in this world. And until one can let go, one will not be free.

Edited May 5, 2019 by welkin

[Starjumper]

"Going with the flow" is a good recommendation, but it has a built in error.  It's not like floating down a river subject to the whims of the currents, it's more like a sailboat captain, where you pay attention to the flow, but you have sails and a rudder, so you can work with it to get to your destination.  Paying attention to not just the flow of the water but also of the air and keeping an eye on the destination.

Edited May 5, 2019 by Starjumper