Tai Chi ball - Mark Rasmus

[dwai]

In Temple style tai chi, we emphasize the Tai chi ball as a key component to the inner transformation and applications (martial, healing, inner-transformation).  This is an excellent video by Sifu Mark Rasmus, whose system I find is the closest to Temple style that I've seen.

Spoiler

 

 

[Wu Ming Jen]

Great topic. This is literally the Tai chi ball

[dwai]

54 minutes ago, Wu Ming Jen said:

Great topic. This is literally the Tai chi ball

Nice. I'd asked my first teacher about why we don't use a physical ball to train. He told me that it will inhibit feeling the energetic ball. So we don't use a physical ball in our training, purely energetic, which becomes as palpable as a real ball (and expands in size). 

 

Not passing any judgement, just sharing what I was taught. Any thoughts on that?

 

 

 

[freeform]

3 hours ago, dwai said:

Sifu Mark Rasmus, whose system I find is the closest to Temple style that I've seen.

 

Mark Rasmus is great  - he is always very clear in his descriptions, and comes to Taiji with a Hermetic perspective.

 

Note how he creates the ‘ball’ with an engagement through the joints and tissues - not imagination

 

 

[Wu Ming Jen]

It is all good we have an exercise where we are blind folded holding the energetic ball in front of us and close our hands when someone passes their hand between the ball. Loads of martial applications turning the ball over as well. I love physical applications of esoteric training personally.

[dwai]

6 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

Mark Rasmus is great  - he is always very clear in his descriptions, and comes to Taiji with a Hermetic perspective.

 

Note how he creates the ‘ball’ with an engagement through the joints and tissues - not imagination

 

 

Yeah there are two ways to get to it. BTW, there is no imagination needed. There is already an energetic field generated by our bodies. Just follow the rules and relax, and the ball is generated. Even "engagement of joints and tissues" is a bit of an overkill. 

[windwalker]

1 hour ago, Wu Ming Jen said:

It is all good we have an exercise where we are blind folded holding the energetic ball in front of us and close our hands when someone passes their hand between the ball. Loads of martial applications turning the ball over as well. I love physical applications of esoteric training personally.

 

 

In China, we called this field  "qi chong"  a   "  qi field"   or " qi ball"   field seems more apt to describe it.

The clip an everyday training session with my teacher in his 90s at the time of the clip

now 99 this yr.

 

What is shown is how Zhang Shifu,  interacts with and can manipulate the field.

 

https://journeytoemptiness.com/2016/07/02/a-day-in-the-park/

 

 

Edited May 3, 2019 by windwalker

[Song of the Dao]

metaphor

noun  

Definition of metaphor

1 : a figure of speech in which a word or phrase literally denoting one kind of object or idea is used in place of another to suggest a likeness or analogy between them (as in drowning in money) broadly : figurative language

[freeform]

11 hours ago, dwai said:

Even "engagement of joints and tissues" is a bit of an overkill.

 

That’s the basis of most of the internal arts - the Yi Jing Jin principles. It’s normally not talked about or explained so I was glad to see that Rasmus didn’t shy away  The Qigong world is slowly opening up, which is exciting to see

 

It might be ‘overkill’ from a certain context, but it’s the only way to increase your ability to handle the exponential increase in raw power that happens later with ‘pre-heaven’ practice.

 

 

[LAOLONG]

I dont know about taiji balls

But i used to know tai chi nuts

[dwai]

6 hours ago, freeform said:

 

That’s the basis of most of the internal arts - the Yi Jing Jin principles. It’s normally not talked about or explained so I was glad to see that Rasmus didn’t shy away  The Qigong world is slowly opening up, which is exciting to see

 

It might be ‘overkill’ from a certain context, but it’s the only way to increase your ability to handle the exponential increase in raw power that happens later with ‘pre-heaven’ practice.

 

 

 It’s a good idea for sure. But best not to obsess over it. Joints will tend to open up just fine if you learn how to suspend the crown properly. 

[OldDog]

Taiji ball (literally) was an important part of my Chen style taiji training.  It goes hand in hand with silk reeling exercises and is very helpful when entering into push hands training. The exercise helps you develop a sense of your own center and internal movement and response. Very good. Here is the exercise as I learned it.

 

 

[voidisyinyang]

18 hours ago, dwai said:

Nice. I'd asked my first teacher about why we don't use a physical ball to train. He told me that it will inhibit feeling the energetic ball. So we don't use a physical ball in our training, purely energetic, which becomes as palpable as a real ball (and expands in size). 

 

Not passing any judgement, just sharing what I was taught. Any thoughts on that?

 

 

 

 

from what I've read the ball is for weight training.

 

The thing to keep in mind is from following up on Windwalker's vid post. He posted on rumsoakedfist also another vid of this teacher.

That was on a thread on Henry Wang https://elixirfield.blogspot.com/2019/05/master-henry-wang-infinite-listening-as.html

 

  The right hand is related to the left foot. The right elbow is related to the left knee. The right shoulder is related to the left hip.

http://www.searchcentertaichi.com/seven.html

As Westerners we think of the hands as being "symmetrical" - but the secret is that reality is based on yin-yang so for males the left hand is yang and the right hand is yin.

 

I find it fascinating that Mark Rasmus never mentioned this in his training vid.

 

More quotes on that blog link - I cut and paste from a pdf.

 

So that is the same secret as Yiquan training also - the "internal" martial arts are simply the Dragon and Tiger resonance as complementary opposites. Left hand is dragon, right hand is tiger. But that is considered for the lower body. But for "listening" then this switches around - the tiger is yang and the dragon is yin. This is alchemy.

 

http://www.searchcentertaichi.com/aboutMHW.html

 

 

 

[freeform]

56 minutes ago, dwai said:

 It’s a good idea for sure. But best not to obsess over it. Joints will tend to open up just fine if you learn how to suspend the crown properly. 

 

No - sorry, different principles to what you’re thinking. It’s not an ‘idea’  

 

You can see the full development of these principles in what Jiang Feng used to do.

Edited May 4, 2019 by freeform

[windwalker]

19 hours ago, dwai said:

Nice. I'd asked my first teacher about why we don't use a physical ball to train. He told me that it will inhibit feeling the energetic ball. So we don't use a physical ball in our training, purely energetic, which becomes as palpable as a real ball (and expands in size). 

 

Not passing any judgement, just sharing what I was taught. Any thoughts on that?

 

 

 

 

A physical ball as used by some stylist tends to lock the intention at the point of contact with an inanimate object.

 

To be able to interact with the qi chong, field of qi.  One must be able to first feel it.  This is what gets moved.  

 

Fore most it's very hard to understand how to move something that they are not physically pressing or touching.

 

One of the hallmarks of internal work is the lack of sensation of physically being moved and yet being moved.

 

when people start to be able to do this themselves they often don't believe it even though they feel their own reactions of what others are doing to them using the same methods.

 

The feedback systems of the body are tuned to a physical reality.

 

Lots of work needed to get past this.

 

Henry Wang, mentioned here, among the other teachers has very good insight to the processes and development for doing this.

 

 

 

Edited May 4, 2019 by windwalker

[windwalker]

Quote

After he met Grandmaster Huang of Malaysia, he realized that here was finally someone who possessed soft martial skills. He studied as much as possible with Huang when he visited Taiwan. Later Master Wang was able to discover the secrets of softness and called his new art search center in order to emphasize softness rather than pushing.

http://www.searchcentertaichi.com/search.html

 

A very interesting teacher with a good history and long period of study, introspection.

[dwai]

38 minutes ago, voidisyinyang said:

 

from what I've read the ball is for weight training.

 

The thing to keep in mind is from following up on Windwalker's vid post. He posted on rumsoakedfist also another vid of this teacher.

That was on a thread on Henry Wang https://elixirfield.blogspot.com/2019/05/master-henry-wang-infinite-listening-as.html

 

  The right hand is related to the left foot. The right elbow is related to the left knee. The right shoulder is related to the left hip.

http://www.searchcentertaichi.com/seven.html

As Westerners we think of the hands as being "symmetrical" - but the secret is that reality is based on yin-yang so for males the left hand is yang and the right hand is yin.

 

I find it fascinating that Mark Rasmus never mentioned this in his training vid.

 

More quotes on that blog link - I cut and paste from a pdf.

 

So that is the same secret as Yiquan training also - the "internal" martial arts are simply the Dragon and Tiger resonance as complementary opposites. Left hand is dragon, right hand is tiger. But that is considered for the lower body. But for "listening" then this switches around - the tiger is yang and the dragon is yin. This is alchemy.

 

http://www.searchcentertaichi.com/aboutMHW.html

 

 

 

Excellent observation!  Opposite sides tend counterbalance.

 

However, when we go beyond physical power application, there are different levels. For e.g., in application of something like taiji brush knee, the substantial palm is the one that brushes the knee. The empty power comes from the palm that is in the front. 

It feels like moving the energy around in a bubble — Qi bubble that @windwalker mentioned earlier. It expands far beyond our own physical body limitations.

 

It boils down to supporting the 8 directions simultaneously. Like a ball expanding and contracting at the same time. This is centered in the LDT and it’s power radiates out, like when a pebble dropped into a lake generates ripples radiating outward. 

 

 

[dwai]

10 minutes ago, windwalker said:

 

A physical ball as used by some stylist tends to lock the intention at the point of contact with an inanimate object.

This is restrictive beyond a certain point. I’ve seen too many taiji players not able to go beyond the physical level, and usually they rely on such props. 

10 minutes ago, windwalker said:

To be able to interact with the qi chong, field of qi.  One must be able to first feel it.  This is what gets moved.  

 

Foremost it's very hard to understand how to move something that they are not physically pressing or touching.

 

The feedback systems of the body are tuned to a physical reality.

Agreed. Though with proper relaxation it becomes progressively more tangible to work with the ball (real taiji ball, ie non physical). 

Quote

Lots of work needed to get past this.

 

Henry Wang, mentioned here, among the other teachers has very good insight to the processes and development for doing this.

 

 

 

In our system the teacher feeds this to the students. There is a transmission that goes out when we are doing the forms and drills. The students pick it up by resonance, just like Sifu Rasmus says in his video. 

Edited May 4, 2019 by dwai

[dwai]

44 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

No - sorry, different principles to what you’re thinking. It’s not an ‘idea’  

 

You can see the full development of these principles in what Jiang Feng used to do.

 I’ve been around the block long enough to know there’s more than one way to skin the proverbial cat  

 

If It works for you, Awesome! 

[voidisyinyang]

50 minutes ago, windwalker said:

http://www.searchcentertaichi.com/search.html

 

A very interesting teacher with a good history and long period of study, introspection.

 

What's fascinating is Henry Wang and his students state that "receiving" is more important than sending - so that first the "center" of another person has to be sensed or perceived. In qigong this is experienced holographically - so that another person's shen frequency is their intention that is then felt inside my own body. So to give an example this reminded me of - I was driving the car with qigong master Jim Nance in the front http://qigongmaster.com (or I meant http://guidingqi.com )  and his friend, another student, who trained in mixed martial arts, was sitting in the back. We had picked up his friend. Now whether it was because I was white and they were both black - or later as Jim said - his friend felt protective towards Jim - but as I was driving I could then sense that the young male in the back was seething with anger towards me. So holographically my liver was buzzing with qi - since that was the center of his intention as an anger blockage. I was just really surprised by this since I was in a happy mood. haha. So I had told this to Jim later and he agreed - he corroborated with me, that is exactly what had been going on and he was keeping an eye on it.

http://guidingqi.com

 

So another time - Jim and I went to get some frozen yogurt at a mall store - and as soon as we got out of the car - there was another AFrican-american male on the other side of the mall and he was looking at Jim. And Jim said to me - how that male was trying to mess with him - to take his energy. So this stuff is going on all the time. Another time - I had just gotten off work and so my male coworker had pulled my energy down in frequency - so my intention was low frequency. Then I went to go hang out with Jim and as he was sitting across from me - I had a low frequency thought towards him. Suddenly he yelled at me: "You're always trying to take my energy!" and when he yelled at me then this strong qi force hit me in the lower tan t'ien - and I was overwhelmed with fear. I had to force myself not to run out of the room. haha.

 

So but then he immediately said, "But I still love you." Another time he asked me to visit him and I said no, since I had just gotten off work and I had not yet purified my energy yet. He said, "I know exactly what you're talking about." And so he respected my answer.

 

Then another example is when I was driving and suddenly I felt my qi going into Jim and so I knew he was tired. So I started talking in a monotone voice and he immediately was snoring. Then he woke up and he goes, "Throw that sleep thing at me again." haha.

 

And a final example I've posted before - I was ranting at Jim while I was driving. He yells, "But I'm on your side!" But I kept ranting about politics. He got super quiet and suddenly the right side of my heart just buzzed with strong electromagnetic force. I was shocked into silence. Jim then said, "I just wanted to see if you were speaking from your heart and you were."

 

 

Edited May 4, 2019 by voidisyinyang

[freeform]

34 minutes ago, dwai said:

 I’ve been around the block long enough to know there’s more than one way to skin the proverbial cat  

 

If It works for you, Awesome! 

 

Yes you’re right - although Rasmus is skinning the cat using Yi Jing Jin principles (bit of a macabre analogy there Dwai) - you can see it in all his other videos and if you touch hands in person.

 

It’s important because these principles have largely been shared only behind closed doors - until recently  

[dwai]

1 hour ago, freeform said:

 

Yes you’re right - although Rasmus is skinning the cat using Yi Jing Jin principles

Could very well be. I like his way. I see what he shows (at least on his paid videos) as an intermediate stage of practice. I'm sure he intends it for such students as well. 

1 hour ago, freeform said:

(bit of a macabre analogy there Dwai) 

Sorry ...lets not skin any cats...  

1 hour ago, freeform said:

- you can see it in all his other videos and if you touch hands in person.

I'd love to meet him in person. Maybe if he's visiting the US.... 

1 hour ago, freeform said:

It’s important because these principles have largely been shared only behind closed doors - until recently  

Yeah. Thats true. You will rarely find any temple style videos in public domain, though Master Liao's advanced stuff is available on streaming for pretty reasonable prices.

 

If folks get an opportunity, watch some of his stuff in this series --

 

https://www.taichitao.tv/programs/course-taichi-and-the-martial-arts-part-1-advanced

https://www.taichitao.tv/programs/course-taichi-and-the-martial-arts-part-2-advanced

https://www.taichitao.tv/programs/course-taichi-and-the-martial-arts-part-3-advanced

 

 

[Starjumper]

On 5/3/2019 at 2:55 PM, dwai said:

Nice. I'd asked my first teacher about why we don't use a physical ball to train. He told me that it will inhibit feeling the energetic ball. So we don't use a physical ball in our training, purely energetic, which becomes as palpable as a real ball (and expands in size). 

 

Not passing any judgement, just sharing what I was taught. Any thoughts on that?

 

Physical contact with the hands will mask the energy feeling, and you can't cultivate energy so well if you can't feel it.  RE: the first video, we do similar but without the breathing or hand movement.  I say that this type of thing is for feeling and creating chi as pressure.

Edited May 4, 2019 by Starjumper

[Song of the Dao]

11 hours ago, OldDog said:

Taiji ball (literally) was an important part of my Chen style taiji training.  It goes hand in hand with silk reeling exercises and is very helpful when entering into push hands training. The exercise helps you develop a sense of your own center and internal movement and response. Very good. Here is the exercise as I learned it.