Citta

[doc benway]

I have a different perspective.

I mean no disrespect to anyone but I don't share the enthusiasm regarding these teachings.

 

I see these videos as a cautionary tale.

One can be blessed with powerful intellect and enormous knowledge and still never have a taste.

One can have a thorough understanding of ever aspect of a bar of chocolate, its physical characteristics, chemical makeup, the source of the beans, manufacturing process, and so on; but if you never actually eat the bar, you will never experience chocolate.

 

This person in the videos is missing a fundamental point regarding emptiness and the nature of citta. 

I do not question his translation of the sutras but each adjective discussed among those 17 points describes a specific characteristic of the abiding nature and none of these adjectives preclude the view of a self-empty abiding nature.

Furthermore, whether the abiding nature is empty of self or not, makes no difference in terms of our realization, it's just theory.

The teachings on emptiness are designed to help us let go of our conceptual blockage to deeper realization. They are not meant to be a comprehensive and definitive description of reality. That is beyond concept and description and best approached with openness and direct connection through meditation. When we grasp our conceptual understanding as truth, our realization is necessarily limited and blocked. 

 

If the teachings (whether shentong or rangtong) are bringing one closer to a direct realization of the abiding nature, meaning a direct personal taste, they are priceless. If they are causing us to adopt a specific belief, a conceptual view, then they are an obstacle.

That very conceptual framework blocks the openness that is necessary for direct realization. This is perhaps one reason why it is said that a study of sutra takes countless lifetimes to bring us to liberation. 

 

There's a Tibetan saying about this that I'll loosely paraphrase. The Tibetans talk about it in terms of butter and skin but that's not something most of us can relate to. If life makes us hard, there is always the Dharma to help us. If the Dharma makes us hard, we are in real trouble!

[silent thunder]

cleanse citta.

this is it.

 

 

stimulus promotes response

the builder builds entire worlds of imagination in the dust covering the eyes of citta

 

cleanse citta

banish the builder

banish imagining

 

citta

 

just this

[lifeforce]

 

[lifeforce]

 

[lifeforce]

There is no getting away from this. The whole foundation of Buddhism is built on sand.  

[rideforever]

I do not follow your conclusions.

 

Buddha was himself a "monk", meaning a renunciate who left the world to sit with teachers and learn the spiritual path, which is common in India and has been for thousands of years.   After his training with the 2 ascetic masters, he formed a group of monks who spent some time together before going it alone and reaching his realisation, then he returned to that group of monk friends and began teaching.  For instance in the Lotus Sutra (I have not read many sutras) he is said to be sitting with "monks".   And for instance there is that famous incident when sitting with his students he stopped and sent his no1 and no2 students to find out who was "impure", they discovered a man there on false pretences and chucked him out.   Then they continues with the teaching.

 

As for the 4 noble truths, these I believe are not authentic and were added later.

As well as that suffering is not a correct translation; it keys in nicely with human sense of victimhood and emotional drama that is very popular, but suffering simply means a non-stable identity swayed by external influences.

 

There is the concept of dependent origination which leads to the conclusion that there is no person and that you literally do not exist.   Is this not from Buddha ?   I don't know.   But that would contradict the Brahman conclusion.

 

Of course dependent origination is bullshit.   If there is no self then why bother teaching.   The inner being is extremely subtle and few humans can really feel their inner being with its many parts, even if they are awakened.   They simply don't know what happened.   Instead they love to argue about words which they are very good at.

They look inside and say "I see nothing there lets argue".
But they did not look closely enough.

 

Buddha is related to Hinduism, but Hinduism is very devotional.

But Buddha added new things : firstly he removed the devotional aspect, gods and so on, and secondly he added a high degree of intellectual analysis leading to Mahamudra and Dzogchen and Zen.    
These things are completely new in India.

 

Although many thousands of years ago India in a previous wave of light, they did have a different intellectual tradition .... of which a little bit remains in the degraded teachings of the chakras and yoga, but a lot has been lost.

 

"I Am Brahman".
This invocation is a practice it is not a statement of fact.   It is only through the practice that you will one day realise Brahman, infact through this practice you draw out of yourself the Real Self that is part of the universal, and you wake up to your true identity.

An identity that only now exists due to your draw it out of yourself with your practice.

 

Unfortunately many unintelligent people these days have heard these words and say to themselves "oh well I am Brahman why bother practicing".   This is entirely wrong.   "I Am Brahman", or Atma Vichara is a practice.

 

So today there are a whole gang of morons who sit in satsang and teach everyone that no practice is necessary because "I Am Brahman", and charge $500/ weekend.    

Something is very wrong with this planet.

 

But anyway.   

Humans on Earth have mastered the arts of bullshitting themselves, corrupting teachings, and mixing dark with light. 

Until they are so confused and messed up all they have left is suffering.

 

And there is another gang of morons circling like vultures around all traditions saying "we were duped" and "the hierarchy this or that".    

Meanwhile they never learnt any practices and never got anywhere.

The ego is cunning, like a vulture.

Lazy and stupid too.

 

There is no such thing as Buddhism is wrong, or Christianity is wrong.

There is only "stop being a vulture", and start practicing.

 

You make these traditions right through your correct practice and attainment of them.

 

Edited May 26, 2019 by rideforever

[lifeforce]

26 minutes ago, rideforever said:

I do not follow your conclusions.

If you have watched all of the videos in this thread, then it becomes obvious.

26 minutes ago, rideforever said:

Buddha was himself a "monk", meaning a renunciate who left the world to sit with teachers and learn the spiritual path, which is common in India and has been for thousands of years.   After his training with the 2 ascetic masters, he formed a group of monks who spent some time together before going it alone and reaching his realisation, then he returned to that group of monk friends and began teaching.  For instance in the Lotus Sutra (I have not read many sutras) he is said to be sitting with "monks".   And for instance there is that famous incident when sitting with his students he stopped and sent his no1 and no2 students to find out who was "impure", they discovered a man there on false pretences and chucked him out.   Then they continues with the teaching.

Again, in the videos, he points out that there is no word for 'monk' or 'nun' in the original Pali.

26 minutes ago, rideforever said:

As for the 4 noble truths, these I believe are not authentic and were added later.

As well as that suffering is not a correct translation; it keys in nicely with human sense of victimhood and emotional drama that is very popular, but suffering simply means a non-stable identity swayed by external influences.

 

There is the concept of dependent origination which leads to the conclusion that there is no person and that you literally do not exist.   Is this not from Buddha ?   I don't know.   But that would contradict the Brahman conclusion.

 

Of course dependent origination is bullshit.   If there is no self then why bother teaching.   The inner being is extremely subtle and few humans can really feel their inner being with its many parts, even if they are awakened.   They simply don't know what happened.   Instead they love to argue about words which they are very good at.

They look inside and say "I see nothing there lets argue".
But they did not look closely enough.

 

Buddha is related to Hinduism, but Hinduism is very devotional.

But Buddha added new things : firstly he removed the devotional aspect, gods and so on, and secondly he added a high degree of intellectual analysis leading to Mahamudra and Dzogchen and Zen.    
These things are completely new in India.

Hinduism is a name for a people in the Indus Valley region of India. Sanatana Dharma is the correct term.

26 minutes ago, rideforever said:

Although many thousands of years ago India in a previous wave of light, they did have a different intellectual tradition .... of which a little bit remains in the degraded teachings of the chakras and yoga, but a lot has been lost.

 

"I Am Brahman".
This invocation is a practice it is not a statement of fact.   It is only through the practice that you will one day realise Brahman, infact through this practice you draw out of yourself the Real Self that is part of the universal, and you wake up to your true identity.

An identity that only now exists due to your draw it out of yourself with your practice.

Unfortunately many unintelligent people these days have heard these words and say to themselves "oh well I am Brahman why bother practicing".   This is entirely wrong.   "I Am Brahman", or Atma Vichara is a practice.

Indeed this is correct. It is a continuous practice.

26 minutes ago, rideforever said:

So today there are a whole gang of morons who sit in satsang and teach everyone that no practice is necessary because "I Am Brahman", and charge $500/ weekend.    

Something is very wrong with this planet.

I totally agree with this. It is a corruption. Unfortunately the masses are gullible and will hand over huge amounts of money for speeches given by some self appointed 'guru', who sits on a platform, usually with vases of flowers and pictures of saints in the background

26 minutes ago, rideforever said:

But anyway.   

Humans on Earth have mastered the arts of bullshitting themselves, corrupting teachings, and mixing dark with light. 

Until they are so confused and messed up all they have left is suffering.

 

And there is another gang of morons circling like vultures around all traditions saying "we were duped" and "the hierarchy this or that".    

Meanwhile they never learnt any practices and never got anywhere.

The ego is cunning, like a vulture.

Lazy and stupid too.

 

There is no such thing as Buddhism is wrong, or Christianity is wrong.

There is only "stop being a vulture", and start practicing.

 

You make these traditions right through your correct practice and attainment of them.

 

But if these traditions are built upon mistranslations, and mistranslations added hundreds of years later, themselves built upon previous mistranslations, the very core of the teachings are then buried within copious amounts of false doctrine. Can you see how problematic that is ? 

Buddhism is 'not wrong', it's just that it's a Neo-Vedantic movement, a Brahmayana, not an original religion.

[rideforever]

A tradition is like a ship and you are a sailor.

It is your job to swab the deck and repair the sails.

Only then will the ship be good.

[lifeforce]

4 hours ago, rideforever said:

And there is another gang of morons circling like vultures around all traditions saying "we were duped" and "the hierarchy this or that".    

Meanwhile they never learnt any practices and never got anywhere.

The ego is cunning, like a vulture.

Lazy and stupid too.

 

I'd hardly call the guy a moron, or lazy and stupid. He's spent over 20 years researching and translating ancient Prakrit Pali. Only a handful of people on earth can do this. He gives citations and references for all his work, which just so happens to be 100% correct.

[rideforever]

14 minutes ago, lifeforce said:

I'd hardly call the guy a moron, or lazy and stupid. He's spent over 20 years researching and translating ancient Prakrit Pali. Only a handful of people on earth can do this. He gives citations and references for all his work, which just so happens to be 100% correct.

 

I'm sorry lifeforce.   

He is a complete and utter fool and has totally wasted his time.

In fact that's not even correct.

He is simply not interested in the spiritual path.

 

Sariputta was enlightened after 7 days, and Mogallana after 14 days.

They were adept monks who had spent years IN PRACTICE and had come to such inner state that on a fortunate meeting with an awakened being could modify their practice and achieve realisation quickly.

Nisargadatta took 3 years under the guidance of an awakened being Siddharameshwar.

 

They did no translations.   They gave no citations.   They were not interested in academia.

And you should ask yourself what you are interested in, because you life is running out ... and if you want a phD just go and get one no-one is stopping you.   But that is not spiritual.

 

The only thing to become expert on is :

(a) specific practice instructions

(b) holy company

(c) surrender to God.

 

[doc benway]

6 hours ago, lifeforce said:

There is no getting away from this. The whole foundation of Buddhism is built on sand.  

 

Actually, it is built on space - even better!

[lifeforce]

2 hours ago, rideforever said:

 

I'm sorry lifeforce.   

He is a complete and utter fool and has totally wasted his time.

In fact that's not even correct.

He is simply not interested in the spiritual path.

 

Sariputta was enlightened after 7 days, and Mogallana after 14 days.

They were adept monks who had spent years IN PRACTICE and had come to such inner state that on a fortunate meeting with an awakened being could modify their practice and achieve realisation quickly.

Nisargadatta took 3 years under the guidance of an awakened being Siddharameshwar.

 

They did no translations.   They gave no citations.   They were not interested in academia.

And you should ask yourself what you are interested in, because you life is running out ... and if you want a phD just go and get one no-one is stopping you.   But that is not spiritual.

 

The only thing to become expert on is :

(a) specific practice instructions

(b) holy company

(c) surrender to God.

 

What on earth are you talking about ?

[rideforever]

He  has wasted 20 years of his life arguing, when he could have practiced properly like the great teachers instructed, and he could have become enlightened.

Instead he has got nothing from 20 years except winning an argument.

That is stupid; but like I said perhaps he is not a spiritual person.

[lifeforce]

"Being intrinsically bright and clear, the citta is always ready to make contact with everything of every nature. Although all conditioned phenomena without exception are governed by the three universal laws of anicca, dukkha, and anattã, the citta’s true nature is not subject to these laws. The citta is conditioned by anicca, dukkha, and anattã only because things that are subject to these laws come spinning in to become involved with the citta and so cause it to spin along with them. However, though it spins in unison with conditioned phenomena, the citta never disintegrates or falls apart. It spins following the influence of those forces which have the power to make it spin, but the true power of the citta’s own nature is that it knows and does not die. This deathlessness is a quality that lies beyond disintegration. Being beyond disintegration, it also lies beyond the range of anicca, dukkha, and anattã and the universal laws of nature".

(from "A Compilation of Venerable Acariya Maha Boowa’s Dhamma Talks about His Path of Practice", translated by Bhikkhu Silaratano)

[lifeforce]

4 minutes ago, rideforever said:

He  has wasted 20 years of his life arguing, when he could have practiced properly like the great teachers instructed, and he could have become enlightened.

Instead he has got nothing from 20 years except winning an argument.

That is stupid; but like I said perhaps he is not a spiritual person.

 

I don't think he sees it that way at all. 

[rideforever]

Of course not, because he is a fool.

And as a fool he will die having won many arguments, as ignorant as any monkey.

He missed his opportunity, and never really understood anything he read.

[lifeforce]

2 minutes ago, rideforever said:

Of course not, because he is a fool.

And as a fool he will die having won many arguments, as ignorant as any monkey.

He missed his opportunity, and never really understood anything he read.

 

Are you for real ? He's an expert on ancient Pali as I keep repeating.

[lifeforce]

"Our real problem, our one fundamental problem—which is also the citta’s fundamental problem—is that we lack the power needed to be our own true self. Instead, we have always taken counterfeit things to be the essence of who we really are, so that the citta’s behavior is never in harmony with its true nature. Rather, it expresses itself through the kilesas’ cunning deceits, which cause it to feel anxious and frightened of virtually everything ... As a result, the citta is forever full of worries and fears. And although fear and worry are not intrinsic to the citta, they still manage to produce apprehension there. When the citta has been cleansed so that it is absolutely pure and free of all involvement, only then will we see a citta devoid of all fear. Then, neither fear nor courage appear, only the citta’s true nature, existing naturally alone on its own, forever independent of time and space. Only that appears—nothing else. This is the genuine citta".

(from "A Compilation of Venerable Acariya Maha Boowa’s Dhamma Talks about His Path of Practice", translated by Bhikkhu Silaratano)

[rideforever]

Tell you something else, I have seen also in the Christian tradition a bunch of vultures talking about ... how the hierarchy fooled us.

They dig up the gnostic texts and all this rubbish.

These people talk like they are erudite but in fact they are just followers of a silly fashion.

And one thing is for sure, they do no real practice.

And they make no real progress.

How "erudite".

 

Better to do exactly what the Buddha did.

Find a being of high attainment and study privately with him full time.

If in doubt sit under a tree for a couple of months with the mouth shut.

 

Winning an argument with a planet of ignorant monkeys ... there is no trophy for that.

[lifeforce]

"To be bigoted & argue with others, is to subject one's essence of mind to the bitterness of mundane existence".

 

-Huineng

[lifeforce]

35 minutes ago, rideforever said:

Better to do exactly what the Buddha did.

Find a being of high attainment and study privately with him full time.

 

 

"Because wisdom is innate, we can all enlighten ourselves".

 

-Huineng

[silent thunder]

Wow... lifeforce.

Dropping Pearls!  Such resonance... thank you!

 

The ripples of this I experience as founationally permeative.

[Cheshire Cat]

During countless years, people have practiced Buddhism to discover Anatta, the absence of an immortal self. 

The term Rebirth has been created to differentiate the concept from Reincarnation. 

 

The Buddha left methods to uncover the true nature of reality: in general there are many instructions on how to reason about the absence of a Self and then meditate on whatever understanding comes from it. Also, he left methods on how to uncover Anatta through pure meditation in order to perceive reality without the medium of a conceptual mind. 

I personally think that the Buddha relied on experience of transcendental states rather than on philosophical speculation, but maybe that's just an idealized Gotama in my fantasies. 

 

Now, the idea that people can rely on that same Buddhism to discover the immortal within, forces me to question the efficacy of Buddhism itself. 

 

It starts to appear as a palliative, a placebo set of exercises that gives you the impression of perceiving whatever understanding of reality you prefer. 

 

 

 

 

[rideforever]

Just been watching some videos of this angry bald headed man.

He says there is no such thing as breath meditation in scripture and that if you focus on the air in your lungs and it calms you that it is meaningless and no better than getting a lobotomy.

 

Right well he is a complete f-ing idiot.

Anybody who does a properly guided breath meditation practice will quickly discover that you are focussing on something energetic and you will feel a new sense of yourself.   That is simply the practical reality.   That is why breath meditations are taught in all or almost all traditions on this planet.

The reason is quite simple, breath is the vital force that rises from the source, and by working with it and merging with it you return to the source which is the goal of spirituality.

It is not meditating on the "air in your lungs".

If he talks like this he is a very insincere and stupid man.

 

Judging by his attitude and tattoos he is like lone man pai with the orange mask and tattoos.   

Really unhealthy negative and weirdly formed people who never did any proper practice.

All they offer you is hate, and a feeling of superiority from never actually doing any practice.

 

[lifeforce]

15 minutes ago, Cheshire Cat said:

During countless years, people have practiced Buddhism to discover Anatta, the absence of an immortal self. 

The term Rebirth has been created to differentiate the concept from Reincarnation. 

 

The Buddha left methods to uncover the true nature of reality: in general there are many instructions on how to reason about the absence of a Self and then meditate on whatever understanding comes from it. Also, he left methods on how to uncover Anatta through pure meditation in order to perceive reality without the medium of a conceptual mind. 

I personally think that the Buddha relied on experience of transcendental states rather than on philosophical speculation, but maybe that's just an idealized Gotama in my fantasies. 

 

Now, the idea that people can rely on that same Buddhism to discover the immortal within, forces me to question the efficacy of Buddhism itself. 

 

It starts to appear as a palliative, a placebo set of exercises that gives you the impression of perceiving whatever understanding of reality you prefer. 

 

 

 

 

 

It is definitely a shocking revelation. But when looking deeper, you find it scattered throughout the various Buddhist traditions, buried under the no self/soul doctrine. There is nothing wrong with the practice of Buddhism, it is only that it becomes just another vehicle (yana) for realisation of the Absolute.