rideforever Posted June 11, 2019 4 minutes ago, GSmaster said: What do you find useful in life? Knowing my true reality, dancing, being healthy, being unafraid because I feel my true self. Being able to communicate myself truly and wonderfully with other people. Financial stability, contribution to my community. Such things. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vonkrankenhaus Posted June 11, 2019 (edited) 10 hours ago, GSmaster said: I can create ball of qi, move it, and other people can see it and touch it feel and hold it. Yes, you can bullshit yourself and others all day. It's a nice thought exercise, but all you developing is just that - a thought. This is what people teach to beginners. It teaches them to "think about" qi. It is not real qi development. Of course, scientists have examined many "qi balls" over decades and find no substance there. Real Qi is moving (movement) in the real polarities functioning in the body and is not a substance. Best research right now is looking at movement and potentials, not looking for a fictional "substance". -VonKrankenhaus Edited June 11, 2019 by vonkrankenhaus 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vonkrankenhaus Posted June 11, 2019 Here is a statement about the futility of looking for Qi as a physical substance: ""China has, in recent decades, spent an inordinate amount of resources on experiments to determine the existence and nature of Qi. China is easing up on this research for lack of concrete breakthroughs. But the quest to define Qi continues, with there being no breakthroughs that we know of. Whether someone in China or anywhere has the Holy Grail hidden from view I cannot say" This appeared in: Xing-Tai Li and Jia Zhao (2012). An Approach to the Nature of Qi in TCM–Qi and Bioenergy, Recent Advances in Theories and Practice of Chinese Medicine, Prof. Haixue Kuang Qi is "energy", and energy is not any specific physical substance either. So unknowing people looking for Qi as a "substance" they can make balls out of - this is like someone trying to say that all "energy" is just one substance, like lightning or hot water, which would be both incorrect and a bit ridiculous. -VonKrankenhaus 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pegasus1992 Posted June 11, 2019 1 hour ago, vonkrankenhaus said: Best research right now is looking at movement and potentials, not looking for a fictional "substance". Cite the references....present the evidence because up to this point you've provided nothing at all Also qi is not movement between polarities... qi is intrinsic life force...it manifests on polarities, and its defined by its position on said polarities ( ie yin cold, yang hot) but it is not movement itself...consider how dark matter works 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vonkrankenhaus Posted June 11, 2019 1 minute ago, pegasus1992 said: Also qi is not movement between polarities... Since you've never actually studied or developed this, why not tell us why you think so. Tell us how this is not so, how qi is not movement, and how movement is not happening between the poles of polarities. -VonKrankenhaus 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phil Posted June 11, 2019 (edited) @vonkrankenhaus If chi is movement, what is it that is moving? For example, when my teacher emits chi to a certain point on my body to help dissolve a blockage - how would you explain it without seeing chi as some kind of substance or energy? Edited June 11, 2019 by phil 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thelerner Posted June 11, 2019 9 hours ago, rideforever said: What can you do that is useful ? I can drive 1100 miles without accident. I can hike in the Garden of the Gods. I can make pleasant conversion with strangers, learning & sharing stuff along the way. I can set up a camping site. I can party. I can suffer mild slings and arrows of misfortune and keep a smile. I can drive home another 1100 miles without incident. That's what I can do, and that's only in one week. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rideforever Posted June 11, 2019 I keep seeing Lonesome Pai, when I catch sight of this thread !!! 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vonkrankenhaus Posted June 11, 2019 12 minutes ago, phil said: If chi is movement, what is it that is moving? Any substance. The same as what any energy is moving - any substance. For example: In electricity it is electrons moving between poles. In thermodynamics, it is heat moving between poles. -VonKrankenhaus 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vonkrankenhaus Posted June 11, 2019 Does anyone here recognize this diagram? What does it show about Qi? It explains Qi and how Qi happens. Have you studied this? -VonKrankenhaus 2 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pegasus1992 Posted June 11, 2019 46 minutes ago, vonkrankenhaus said: Since you've never actually studied or developed this, why not tell us why you think so. Tell us how this is not so, how qi is not movement, and how movement is not happening between the poles of polarities. -VonKrankenhaus Ill ignore the first comment seeing as you are neither informed nor qualified to make such an opinion Gladly Qi is not movement because Qi is life force The movement of Qi along a given polarity allows it to be positioned on a given spectrum to which we can define it's position and nature...but the movement itself is not the energy. That is the most ill informed thing you've posited so far ie yin qi manifests as "magnetic" but it is not magnetism per se Again pay attention to how dark matter works......we are dealing with substances that are not normally observable by the 5 senses.... Therefore to define the action as qi, is not only uninformed, it also displays ignorance to the true nature of qi, and to any insight into its function Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vonkrankenhaus Posted June 11, 2019 1 minute ago, GSmaster said: If there is no movement, where is qi? No movement = no Qi. No movement = no energy. And what western people call "potential energy" is not energy, but just "possible" energy. -VonKrankenhaus 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vonkrankenhaus Posted June 11, 2019 Just now, pegasus1992 said: Qi is not movement because Qi is life force How is "force" not movement? Qi is just movement. Life is movement, but many things not alive are also moving. Not by any intrinsic movement or energy, but by external movement or energies. -VonKrankenhaus 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vonkrankenhaus Posted June 11, 2019 3 minutes ago, pegasus1992 said: ie yin qi manifests as "magnetic" but it is not magnetism per se Yin qi is not movement. It is the resistance of accumulated substance to movement. ALL movement is Yang. Yin is Stasis, like "dead" is. -VonKrankenhaus 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pegasus1992 Posted June 11, 2019 4 minutes ago, vonkrankenhaus said: Yin qi is not movement. It is the resistance of accumulated substance to movement. ALL movement is Yang. Yin is Stasis, like "dead" is. -VonKrankenhaus I'll quote what I just posted, seeing as it went over your head "The movement of Qi along a given polarity allows it to be positioned on a given spectrum to which we can define it's position and nature...but the movement itself is not the energy" Nobody claimed Yin was movement...rather I stated that it is a reference to the position of energy on a given polarity. Also, define " accumulated substance"...what exactly is this you are referring to? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vonkrankenhaus Posted June 11, 2019 48 minutes ago, pegasus1992 said: "The movement of Qi along a given polarity allows it to be positioned on a given spectrum to which we can define it's position and nature...but the movement itself is not the energy" Nobody claimed Yin was movement...rather I stated that it is a reference to the position of energy on a given polarity. By the "position of energy" you suggest that energy is a physical thing. But energy is just movement between the poles of any polarity. What "substance" moves in polarities? Many. Any. There is no specific substance that moves called qi or anything else. You are saying that energy is a specific physical "thing", which it isn't. "Substance" is physical things. Substance doesn't move by itself, but can impede movement. Qi is the movement itself, not whatever substances may be moved. ALL movement happens in polarities. Zhou Dunyi diagram shows how movement works in polarities. YinYang is non-commutative and non-reversible and non-reflexive because all movement is Yang and Yin is Stasis. If this were not true, all polarities would cancel-out or equate and there could be no physical things. -VonKrankenhaus 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rideforever Posted June 11, 2019 18 minutes ago, vonkrankenhaus said: You are saying that energy is a specific physical "thing", which it isn't. "Substance" is physical things. Just to clarify ... you are saying that a planet for instance is a physical thing and is substance. But that qi is energy moving between poles ? And what about the qi that rises and falls with the breath ? Is that energy ? What about when the dantien awakens, that seems like it is substance as it is stable and solid ? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vonkrankenhaus Posted June 11, 2019 21 minutes ago, rideforever said: Just to clarify ... you are saying that a planet for instance is a physical thing and is substance. But that qi is energy moving between poles ? The movement of the planet is Yang and the substance of the planet is Yin. Qi is the movement, not the substance. -VonKrankenhaus 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vonkrankenhaus Posted June 11, 2019 25 minutes ago, rideforever said: And what about the qi that rises and falls with the breath ? Is that energy ? Breathing happens as a result of a polarity, and creates other polarities in the body that also cause movements. The movement is energy. The substances inhaled (air, dust, whatever they may be) are just substances riding on that energy. So the "breath" as in the actual volume of physical air inhaled, is not the movement that causes the inhalation. It just the physical substances that were moved BY that movement. -VonKrankenhaus 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vonkrankenhaus Posted June 11, 2019 People get confused because they see character for "Qi" used is "氣" which suggest steam from cooking rice, and usually translated as "breath". But look in philosophical Taoism. They are not using that "breath" or "steam" character for "Qi". They are using "炁", which is the radical for "nothing" over the radical for fire. This usually means energy we cannot see, or that is not connected to an actual substance. Chinese medical books often DO mean "breath" when they use that character. They are studying organs, and first organ in "organ clock" (12 branches) is Lung. Means same thing as breathing does in western medicine. Philosophical and Cultivation texts are not using that character, and many time do NOT mean "breath". They are using older character and discussing a different thing. -VonKrankenhaus 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Starjumper Posted June 12, 2019 (edited) In the tai chi classics it states that there are three levels a person goes through on the path of energy cultivation. They are: 1. feeling energy 2, controlling energy 3. knowing energy The third level starts after around thirty years of hard work (assuming an advanced teacher, which is rare), where you start getting a rudimentary handle on the subject. So, the good news is I've been doing it for over thirty years now. The bad news for you guys is that knowing energy doesn't mean knowing it in words that mean anything to anyone who doesn't know energy, if you know what I mean. I hope I'm not confusing anyone ... yet. 7 hours ago, pegasus1992 said: Qi is not movement because Qi is life force Chi is not movement, that is true, but it isn't a force either Chi moves but most of what moves in the world is not chi. Chi isn't life force, it's life energy. Kinetic energy can create physical force, and electrical energy can create both electrical force and magnetic force. Chi is like electrical energy, but it is not electrical energy. It can create a force as well. 7 hours ago, vonkrankenhaus said: How is "force" not movement? It just isn't, never was, never will be. It's in the definition! 7 hours ago, vonkrankenhaus said: No movement = no Qi. No movement = no energy. Wrong! A field energy can produce a mechanical force, a mechanical force can move a physical object, and a physical object contains kinetic energy (not to be confused with the potential energy of a boulder on a cliff top about to fall on the unsuspecting horse rider below), but only bozos confuse kinetic energy with a field energy. Edited June 12, 2019 by Starjumper 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vonkrankenhaus Posted June 12, 2019 1 hour ago, Starjumper said: Wrong! A field energy can produce a mechanical force All you guys are funny. That was in response my statements: No movement = no Qi, and No movement = no energy. Field energy is moving energy. It is making that field by movement. No movement = no field energy. "Potential" energy isn't really "energy". It is just "possible" energy. Not currently happening, just "possible". So okay - this is a silly conversation, yes. I'm assuming from the discussion and people admissions that they didn't study these things really. Just bullshitting each other and their selves. And that is fun too. But I will leave this fun for now, as no time to continue it. I will check later. If someone sees and wants to know more about what I mention - can contact me in message here on DBs. -VonKrankenhaus 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pegasus1992 Posted June 12, 2019 10 hours ago, Starjumper said: In the tai chi classics it states that there are three levels a person goes through on the path of energy cultivation. They are: 1. feeling energy 2, controlling energy 3. knowing energy The third level starts after around thirty years of hard work (assuming an advanced teacher, which is rare), where you start getting a rudimentary handle on the subject. So, the good news is I've been doing it for over thirty years now. The bad news for you guys is that knowing energy doesn't mean knowing it in words that mean anything to anyone who doesn't know energy, if you know what I mean. I hope I'm not confusing anyone ... yet. Chi is not movement, that is true, but it isn't a force either Chi moves but most of what moves in the world is not chi. Chi isn't life force, it's life energy. Kinetic energy can create physical force, and electrical energy can create both electrical force and magnetic force. Chi is like electrical energy, but it is not electrical energy. It can create a force as well. It just isn't, never was, never will be. It's in the definition! Wrong! A field energy can produce a mechanical force, a mechanical force can move a physical object, and a physical object contains kinetic energy (not to be confused with the potential energy of a boulder on a cliff top about to fall on the unsuspecting horse rider below), but only bozos confuse kinetic energy with a field energy. Thank you for the correction, it's somewhat aligned to what I was trying to say, but clearly I made a mess of it. a good insight from that post! much respect Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pegasus1992 Posted June 12, 2019 9 hours ago, vonkrankenhaus said: All you guys are funny. That was in response my statements: No movement = no Qi, and No movement = no energy. Field energy is moving energy. It is making that field by movement. No movement = no field energy. "Potential" energy isn't really "energy". It is just "possible" energy. Not currently happening, just "possible". So okay - this is a silly conversation, yes. I'm assuming from the discussion and people admissions that they didn't study these things really. Just bullshitting each other and their selves. And that is fun too. But I will leave this fun for now, as no time to continue it. I will check later. If someone sees and wants to know more about what I mention - can contact me in message here on DBs. -VonKrankenhaus I'm afraid you are the only one here doing that #1 You've repeatedly labelled JC, SOTG and anyone else who has been mentioned that can do "paranormal" things a fraud, despite having no actual evidence of it #2 You've literally backed yourself into several corners throughout this thread, and every time you do, you just ignore the posts like they never existed. #3 You claim to have over 50 years experience, yet you show understanding and outlook of a beginner based on the tunnel vision displayed. Are all the others being dishonest, or are you? I know which is more likely #4 The double standards, hypocrisy and appeals to authority are literally indicative that you do not actually know what you are talking about. The list could go on and on.... I hope you do stop at this stage, because unlike every other thread you where you actually post almost near passive aggressive comments pertaining to things you don't agree with, someone actually called you on it this time. And the results are as such For someone with 50 years of experience, the lack of respect you show for other people who are serious, devoted practitioners is somewhat surprising. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
joeblast Posted June 12, 2019 9 hours ago, vonkrankenhaus said: Field energy is moving energy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scalar_field Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
