dawei

Neiye - Introduction - Multi-authors

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I’ve attached a few pages from Harold Roth, Original Tao: Inward Training (Nei yeh) and the Foundation of Taoist Mysticism in which he outlines the extensive research he undertook to establish a critical edition of the Neiye as the basis for his translation.  (In his book he gives the full Chinese text for each verse.)

 

I personally have neither the Chinese language skills nor the interest to critique his research, but it seems from our Dao Bums discussion, such textural background information is important to others. 
 

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This comment and my post above are a continuation of discussion started in the "Neiye section 3" topic.  

 

What I’m wanting to show with my above post is that Roth was well aware of the huge amount of research, both Chinese and Western, that covered the Neiye chapter of the Guanzi.  He was thoroughly conversant with its textual history and the many ambiguities in the text for translators to interpret. What Roth has done in his book is to emphasise the mysticism of the Neiye. Thus he interprets text ambiguities accordingly. In doing so, to my mind, he’s brought back to life the essence of the text and conveyed it in a way relevant for our contemporary spiritual needs. The gist of the text resonates very strongly with my own unfolding experiences. Hence the Neiye is an important foundational text for me. And obviously for Roth too, both as a long term Zen practitioner and academic. 

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  On 5/21/2019 at 3:03 AM, Yueya said:

This comment and my post above are a continuation of discussion started in the "Neiye section 3" topic.  

 

What I’m wanting to show with my above post is that Roth was well aware of the huge amount of research, both Chinese and Western, that covered the Neiye chapter of the Guanzi.  He was thoroughly conversant with its textual history and the many ambiguities in the text for translators to interpret. What Roth has done in his book is to emphasise the mysticism of the Neiye. Thus he interprets text ambiguities accordingly. In doing so, to my mind, he’s brought back to life the essence of the text and conveyed it in a way relevant for our contemporary spiritual needs. The gist of the text resonates very strongly with my own unfolding experiences. Hence the Neiye is an important foundational text for me. And obviously for Roth too, both as a long term Zen practitioner and academic. 

 

greatly appreciate the post.  But Roth never found non-dual. 

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  On 5/21/2019 at 3:48 AM, dawei said:

 

greatly appreciate the post.  But Roth never found non-dual. 

 

What does 'never found non-dual' mean?

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  On 5/21/2019 at 3:48 AM, dawei said:

Hence the Neiye is an important foundational text for me.

 

For me as well.

 

I had read his book about a year ago. At your prompting, I went to my copy, rather than read the section in your post, so thst I could see my notes. I often mark passages that have meaning and provide insights for me so that later I can go back and compare them to my current understanding.

 

Two things have been on my mind as we have undertaken this study. My first read on Nieye was through Dan Reid's The Thread of Dao. That was important to me because it related Neiye to Laozi pretty nicely, thus lending a sense of continuity to the texts. But here, we have seemingly avoided Reid's work. I wonder why that is. Is he seen as not representing the Neiye fairly? The other thing, so which comes from reading Reid's analysis, is that he provides his analysis using three Guanzi texts ... Bai Xin, Xin Shu and Nei Ye. I find Roth's work really valuable but have wondered why he did not place much emphasis on Bai Xin and Xin Shu. Perhaps he explained it somewhere and I missed it.

 

 

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  On 5/21/2019 at 7:59 AM, Apech said:

 

What does 'never found non-dual' mean?

 

IMO, He comes across as too academic. I get a similar feeling when reading Hendricks.

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  On 5/21/2019 at 1:46 PM, OldDog said:

 

For me as well.

 

I had read his book about a year ago. At your prompting, I went to my copy, rather than read the section in your post, so thst I could see my notes. I often mark passages that have meaning and provide insights for me so that later I can go back and compare them to my current understanding.

 

nice idea. I've done that before and get a WTF was I thinking at times :)

 

 

  1 hour ago, OldDog said:

Two things have been on my mind as we have undertaken this study. My first read on Nieye was through Dan Reid's The Thread of Dao. That was important to me because it related Neiye to Laozi pretty nicely, thus lending a sense of continuity to the texts. But here, we have seemingly avoided Reid's work. I wonder why that is. Is he seen as not representing the Neiye fairly? The other thing, so which comes from reading Reid's analysis, is that he provides his analysis using three Guanzi texts ... Bai Xin, Xin Shu and Nei Ye. I find Roth's work really valuable but have wondered why he did not place much emphasis on Bai Xin and Xin Shu. Perhaps he explained it somewhere and I missed it.

 

I somewhat know Dan...  I don't have his book and don't have a PDF version to reference.  So that should explain why he is not in the list.

 

From my brief research into the three books, it seems Bai Xin and Xin Shu are like a commentary on Neiye.  But it seems the Neiye is oldest.  I posted links to them but now can't find it.   If I could get it again, maybe we look at those after.

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  On 5/21/2019 at 3:02 PM, dawei said:

... it seems Bai Xin and Xin Shu are like a commentary on Neiye.  But it seems the Neiye is oldest.

 

As I understood it, the three books were slightly sequential but they represented different writer/compilations with considerable overlap. The value of the three taken together is that they elucidate some of the meanings in these early concepts and affirm each other as representations of early daoist thought and practice.

 

Not to diminish Roth's work, but I did find him a bit difficult to read, as well. Still, very revealing and comprehensive effort.

 

 

Edited by OldDog
correcting autocorrect
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  On 5/21/2019 at 7:28 PM, OldDog said:

 

As I understood it, the three books were slightly sequential but they represented different writer/compilations with considerable overlap. The value of the three taken together is that they elucidate some of the meanings in these early concepts and affirm each other as representations of early daoist thought and practice.

 

Not to diminish Roth's work, but I did find him a bit difficult to read, as well. Still, very revealing and comprehensive effort.

 

 

 

I agree overall.  And have thought more about doing the other two works, particularly if we can find an english translation. 

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  On 5/21/2019 at 3:03 AM, Yueya said:

The gist of the text resonates very strongly with my own unfolding experiences.

 

Hi Yueya,

 

For me unfolding experiences top ~ they pertain to firsthand knowledge without aforethought. 

 

With humility in mind ~ I like to believe that I should write my own text with brevity in mind.

 

Reading a good text after the fact gives me these moments re a tree of knowledge...

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And this good text will become a personal reference like The Good Book.

 

Also having a soulmate to trustingly share a path on a road less traveled is to me a part of Destiny.

 

- Anand

 

 

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  On 5/21/2019 at 1:46 PM, OldDog said:

My first read on Nieye was through Dan Reid's The Thread of Dao.

 

To my mind Dan Reid's book and Roth's make an excellent pair. We are privileged to have them both. For anyone interested in the Neiye,  I'd say both these books are essential reading. They complement each other in that Roth uses the technique of what he calls textural archaeology to recover the original text. This recovered text then becomes the critical text on which his translation is based. It includes a reasonably large number of amendments from the received text. On the other hand, Reid doesn't accept any amendments, His translation is based wholly on the received text. Despite these different approaches and the differences in translation that follow, to my mind, the gist of the Neiye remains the same. 

 

For this Dao Bums Neiye discussion to be fair to Roth it really needs to include his critical text and his notes on his translation.  To illustrate this I will post Roth's critical text and some of his notes for his verse 2 translation in that section of our discussion. I will also  include a little of Reid's translation / interpretation. 

 

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  On 5/23/2019 at 9:28 PM, Yueya said:

Despite these different approaches and the differences in translation that follow, to my mind, the gist of the Neiye remains the same. 

 

Hi Yueya,

 

I have yet to read any of the Neiye main texts ~ I am still with your booklet ... the gist of the Neiye. Why?

 

I am preventing an information overload on myself ~ unwittingly.

 

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Can I use your Neiye gist as a compass on a road less traveled... like  a Feng Shui compass?

 

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When there is no one size that fits all ~ there is also no one Neiye path that is for all?

 

- Anand

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  On 5/23/2019 at 9:28 PM, Yueya said:

... Roth uses the technique of what he calls textural archaeology ...

 

Yes, that is a particularly interesting aspect of Roth's work ... and one to be noted.

 

He lays a really strong foundation for his methodology, describing the technic involved and how they are applied. This lends considerable credibility to his analysis because his results and  conclusions cannot be viewed as arbitrary. In a sense he throws down a gauntlet for academic rigor. It's really quite impressive.

 

On the other hand, because of the antiquity the texts he is working with, it is really difficult to validate his conclusions. It is only through the strength of his methodology that his conclusions stand. So, there is still a little room for possible disagreement.  It would be interesting to see if anyone else can mount as rigorous an argument for any other point of view.

 

Regardless, for the rest of us he provides much to consider.

 

 

 

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  On 5/24/2019 at 1:24 PM, OldDog said:

 

Yes, that is a particularly interesting aspect of Roth's work ... and one to be noted.

 

He lays a really strong foundation for his methodology, describing the technic involved and how they are applied. This lends considerable credibility to his analysis because his results and  conclusions cannot be viewed as arbitrary. In a sense he throws down a gauntlet for academic rigor. It's really quite impressive.

 

On the other hand, because of the antiquity the texts he is working with, it is really difficult to validate his conclusions. It is only through the strength of his methodology that his conclusions stand. So, there is still a little room for possible disagreement.  It would be interesting to see if anyone else can mount as rigorous an argument for any other point of view.

 

Regardless, for the rest of us he provides much to consider.

 

 

 

 

That may be true and his method is likely not something one would question anyways.  And all we have here is his translation.  Folks can read some on him here:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neiye

 

My biggest concerns are:

1. In Ancient china, there are far fewer words to use and thus their meanings can be more than what meets the eye.  Also, to aid in memorization, rhythm is important even if the word is not the most precise to use.

2. I have my doubts this should be considered a daoist work.   It is among a mix of also Confucian and Legalist; Guanzi being a legalist by most accounts.  Daoist didn't have the market on meditation (recall, John Chang claims his lineage traces to Mencius) where scores died trying to perfect that method.  

 

Shen Dao was a legalist (though some later want to classify him as daoist) known for influencing the legalist Hanfeizi.  Yet, Shen Dao's work clearly finds a few phrases in the Laozi, and Hanfeizi wrote the very first commentary on the Laozi.   

 

Guanzi and Shen Dao were at the Jixia Academy in Qi where many philosophies were discussed.  There was a daoist at the academy Peng Meng whom Zhuangzi shows to be a daoist by all accounts.   It is also interesting to note that Sima Qian lumped, Shen Dao, Hanfezi, and Laozi together.  He supported Huang-Lao which was a mix but he described the Daoist as taking the best from all the other schools.   We've talked Daoism and Legalism elsewhere but the line is hard to draw at times.   

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I have updated the chapter study to include Dan Reid's translation and his notes.   Please re-read the first post of each chapter as you want. 

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Here are the full translations of each so you don't have to try and open each chapter.  Note that we are following Eno's section breaks (18)  while most follow Roth (26).

 

Eno:

 

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Linnell:

 

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Roth:

 

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Shazi Daoren

 

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Yueyu:

 

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Reid:

 

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