Dantian and Bones - How should it be drawn?

[Old Student]

There are a lot of pictures, in books, online, in charts and diagrams, that show where the dantian (or lower dantian) is located.  Almost all of them are side views, almost all of them show no bones, or show them so symbolically as to not really allow identification.  I'm hoping someone can definitively help with where the lower dantian is.

 

Most verbal descriptions say, 3 fingers below the navel and 3 fingers inside, with the number of fingers for each varying, and some people actually using thumbs instead.  The navel is roughly at the illiac crest, which is the bone pictured at the front of the top of the pelvis in the following picture, so the vertical location on this picture seems like it is correct.  It would say the dantian is in front of the sacrum (picture from seeds of longevity):

 

Quite a few pictures lead to a conclusion more like the one below, however, which shows the dantian below the navel, but also above the sacrum?

 

 

The following picture is one I've seen quite a lot (this and the previous are from this site which has a ton of pictures including the top one).  It does the triangulation more carefully, but it's unclear in the diagram on which it is superimposed what we are looking at for spine, but does seem to be again in front of the sacrum.

 

I've seen diagrams with female torsos, and it seems to be put in the "womb space", which seems lower.

 

I am also reading Damo Mitchell's White Moon on the Mountain Peak, which says that the dantian is vertically aligned with the baihui and the huiyin, which puts it far back, but also on a line between the mingmen and the qihai, which seems like it would be almost above the navel.

 

I have always "left it indistinct" when doing my exercises, it has been sufficient that it was below the navel and inside, but that place only warms for me, it never gets hot, and multiple sources talk about the dantian getting hot when fed energy.  I did his correcting exercise, moving up the line from the huiyin, and I did another person's exercise, using warm hands and moving slowly inward, Mitchell's put it against my sacrum, the other put it a little forward from there.  I got my indications of these by feeling for the bones, and somewhat by comparing to the iliac crests, which are easy to find.

 

For background and disclosure, I am trying to complete Mitchell's and some other's visualizations/meditations.  I can't penetrate that area with visualizations for some reason, when I do a Tibetan style visualization of the nadi it fades in that area, when I do more Daoist visualizations the area responds but I can never seem to see it.  So I'm looking for a more concentrated location point than what I've visualized in the past and want to know how to "narrow it down".

 

 

[dwai]

If you draw a straight line from your mingmen to your qihai, the lower dantien will be approx in the center of that line. 

[Old Student]

If the mingmen is at the bottom of the kidneys, and the qihai is just under the navel, how does that not come out above the waist?  This is kind of what I've been struggling to understand.

[dwai]

2 hours ago, Old Student said:

If the mingmen is at the bottom of the kidneys, and the qihai is just under the navel, how does that not come out above the waist?  This is kind of what I've been struggling to understand.

Who said it is below the waist?

[Old Student]

7 minutes ago, dwai said:

Who said it is below the waist?

All of my taijiquan and liuhebafa teachers either specified it was some number of fingers below the waist and some in, or specified that it was in "your lower belly." I have perceived it there as a large ball, but not as a small place that grew very warm.  So I assumed it was some place within that area.

[dwai]

7 minutes ago, Old Student said:

All of my taijiquan and liuhebafa teachers either specified it was some number of fingers below the waist and some in, or specified that it was in "your lower belly." I have perceived it there as a large ball, but not as a small place that grew very warm.  So I assumed it was some place within that area.

Did they say “waist” or navel? I’ve never heard of anyone Say “waist”. 

[Old Student]

Just now, dwai said:

Did they say “waist” or navel? I’ve never heard of anyone Say “waist”. 

Navel.

[dwai]

Just now, Old Student said:

Navel.

Yes it is below the navel, and above the waist 

[Old Student]

Mine are within a centimeter of the same height.

[Old Student]

55 minutes ago, dwai said:

Yes it is below the navel, and above the waist 

I just tried this (not worrying if it was or wasn't above the waist).  It produced some tummo-like heat all over my body, a little twitching (not sure of the location), but no heat at the new location. Of course, it's only one try so far.  When I sink my pulse, it goes to the same place, not the new place.

[dwai]

40 minutes ago, Old Student said:

I just tried this (not worrying if it was or wasn't above the waist).  It produced some tummo-like heat all over my body, a little twitching (not sure of the location), but no heat at the new location. Of course, it's only one try so far.  When I sink my pulse, it goes to the same place, not the new place.

The location is not fixed (as in it moves around in the vicinity). I’d suggest you meditate on it for a while before you decide one way or another. Main thing is to first let the Qi sink to the belly. After you’ve developed the ability to sink the Qi to the belly, it will automatically refine to a point. 

[Old Student]

I really appreciate you spending this time on this with me, it is very helpful.  On sinking my qi to my belly, I've been doing that as a matter of practice for liuhebafa for a very long time.  It's possible it may have refined to a point about 15 years ago, it wasn't what I was focused on.  Is the combination of me doing these neidan exercises plus sinking my qi going to be different than sinking my qi in another context?  I will take your suggestion, but if you know the answer to that, I would appreciate hearing it.

 

In terms of the original post, the reason I had asked about the sacrum is because for the sacrum, I can actually "set that ablaze", very specifically.  In the Nei Jing Tu, the dantian is back against the back (or at least the words, Correct Dantian (成丹天) are there).

[dwai]

9 hours ago, Old Student said:

I really appreciate you spending this time on this with me, it is very helpful.  On sinking my qi to my belly, I've been doing that as a matter of practice for liuhebafa for a very long time.  It's possible it may have refined to a point about 15 years ago, it wasn't what I was focused on.  Is the combination of me doing these neidan exercises plus sinking my qi going to be different than sinking my qi in another context?  I will take your suggestion, but if you know the answer to that, I would appreciate hearing it.

 

In terms of the original post, the reason I had asked about the sacrum is because for the sacrum, I can actually "set that ablaze", very specifically.  In the Nei Jing Tu, the dantian is back against the back (or at least the words, Correct Dantian (成丹天) are there).

I don't practice Neidan, so won't know how to advise you on that. On the other hand, the Dantien of Neigong and Neidan are the same, so I'd advice against overthinking this stuff. 

 

The sacrum is the lower belly/pelvic region. 

[Jeff]

9 hours ago, Old Student said:

I really appreciate you spending this time on this with me, it is very helpful.  On sinking my qi to my belly, I've been doing that as a matter of practice for liuhebafa for a very long time.  It's possible it may have refined to a point about 15 years ago, it wasn't what I was focused on.  Is the combination of me doing these neidan exercises plus sinking my qi going to be different than sinking my qi in another context?  I will take your suggestion, but if you know the answer to that, I would appreciate hearing it.

 

In terms of the original post, the reason I had asked about the sacrum is because for the sacrum, I can actually "set that ablaze", very specifically.  In the Nei Jing Tu, the dantian is back against the back (or at least the words, Correct Dantian (成丹天) are there).

 

Your heart is open and energy is flowing.  It is time to start noticing the separate channels of transmission and reception. Some traditions would call that male and female energy sides. Start connecting to others so that you can begin to feel/sense the difference, and let go of your belly.

[escott]

Have you found this article yet?

 

https://flowingzen.com/5523/where-in-the-world-is-dantian/

 

I guess something to keep in mind is that we are not talking about physical anatomy here. The energy body is going to be a little different for everybody. Something I read once is that people often mistake the dantien to be too far forward. So, before I start my qigong I like to put one hand on duqi and the other on mingmen to center myself and find my dantien on the line that connects them. I think we tend to visualize ourselves as we see ourselves in the mirror (looking at our front). Putting that little bit of pressure on my back helps me to sink my perception deeper inside.

[Old Student]

2 hours ago, Jeff said:

Your heart is open and energy is flowing.  It is time to start noticing the separate channels of transmission and reception. Some traditions would call that male and female energy sides. Start connecting to others so that you can begin to feel/sense the difference, and let go of your belly.

You mean like left and right chong mai/left and right nadi? Or separating male and female energy?

[Jeff]

34 minutes ago, Old Student said:

You mean like left and right chong mai/left and right nadi? Or separating male and female energy?

 

Left and right are again related to the “local body”. I am not talking about channels in the body, more about the polarity of flows. The Yin and Yang of it.

[freeform]

3 hours ago, dwai said:

On the other hand, the Dantien of Neigong and Neidan are the same

 

Actually - that's not strictly true

[dwai]

41 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

Actually - that's not strictly true

Wheee!!!

 

[Old Student]

1 hour ago, freeform said:

Actually - that's not strictly true

To quote Jeff Goldblum in Independence Day, "What? Which part?"

[Taoist Texts]

21 hours ago, Old Student said:

There are a lot of pictures, in books, online, in charts and diagrams, that show where the dantian (or lower dantian) is located.  Almost all of them are side views, almost all of them show no bones, or show them so symbolically as to not really allow identification.  I'm hoping someone can definitively help with where the lower dantian is.

I am sure someone can, if you tell that someone what it is.

[Old Student]

10 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

I am sure someone can, if you tell that someone what it is.

1) 下丹田 lower cinnabar field

2) The place to which I sink my qi when doing a neijia form

3) The place in which jing is raised to purify it and create qi

4) The place to which I'm supposed to rest my awareness during (3)

5) The place which is supposed to concentrate to a ball and grow hot when doing (3) and (4)

Or if (2) and (3),(4), and (5) are not the same place then (5) which is also (3) and (4). If all these are not the same, then I would appreciate knowing about that, too, I guess.

[freeform]

4 hours ago, Old Student said:

To quote Jeff Goldblum in Independence Day, "What? Which part?"

 

A lot of the ‘congenital’ systems have the lower Dantien at the perineum or just a little higher.

 

(middle is often at solar plexus and upper is in the head)

 

But it doesn’t matter too much - best to focus on the system you’re practicing at this time and use their guidelines.

 

PS. Don’t visualise the Dantien

 

PPS. Find your Qi Hai point, put finger there... find your perineum (don’t put finger there - not in public anyway) - but give it a little squeeze and mentally trace a line up to the level of Qi Hai. That’s where your LDT (in most systems) is.

 

PPPS. Learn to stand in wuji. Learn to sink your mind to that area. Learn to move your centre of gravity there. Learn to breathe there. When all these come together correctly (might take quite a bit of practice), you’ll feel a physical tug or a pull in your LDT. It’s unmistakeable

[freeform]

3 hours ago, Old Student said:

The place which is supposed to concentrate to a ball and grow hot when doing (3) and (4)

 

There’s a lot of preliminary stuff to be done before you’ll have any proper (transformative) heat there.

 

You can’t get there without building the foundations really.

[Old Student]

7 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

lower dantian is a ball framed by diaphragm on top, navel and spine back and front, and pubis bones on below.

That's all of my abdomen.