Meditation - Doing vs Non-Doing

[doc benway]

10 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

I guess I die repeatedly on my cushion then  

 

Clearly they return so you can rest easy...

 

[thursday]

Nice to read different perspectives from everyone. Thank you.

[ilumairen]

And yep, your ideas about yourself die, and your ideas about the world around you sometimes do as well. 

 

:knitting furiously trying to mend the ego clothing: (this only works to a certain point btw)

 

There seems to be a very good reason why the word "naked" is used..

[freeform]

3 minutes ago, steve said:

 

Clearly they return so you can rest easy...

 

 

Bad advice, Steve - It’s the resting easy that causes all that dying!  

[dwai]

56 minutes ago, steve said:

My perspective on meditation differs front freeform. Hard to know about Spotless as he hasn’t defined it clearly. With respect for others’ opinions, I’d like to offer my own.

 

Meditation as I use the word is not the “absence of thought or any movement of mind.” Thoughts and movement of mind are a normal characteristic of the human condition and will be with us until death. Meditation is when thoughts and movement of the mind do not disturb the ability to rest in open presence, that very resting in fully open presence is meditation. Thoughts come and go and there is no one there to engage, follow, suppress, or elaborate.

This!  

Quote

 

There are stages one can observe. At the stage of “meditation” as I suspect Spotless is using the label, thoughts and activity of mind are compared to snowflakes falling on the ocean. As soon as they arise, they dissolve with no effort whatsoever and the stability of the meditation is untouched. The stage before that is likened to sunshine melting frost, activity arises and the practitioner is aware and then rests in open awareness, permitting the activity to liberate. There is a  very subtle doing there, I refer to it as effort. At earlier stages a variety of methods are used to liberate the activity but more effort is needed and until the effort is no longer needed, it is appropriate. All of this is meditation in my usage of the label. I respect others’ preferences to restrict the meaning of the word but I personally find it more supportive for beginning and intermediate practitioners to be more inclusive with the terminology. 

Effortless effort...if there is such a paradoxical state. It is done without "doing".

Quote

 

In the beginning it is useful to exert effort to quiet the mind in order to realize the mind’s nature, as opposed to what we usually experience which is its contents and activity. To have the expectation that all thought and movement of mind cease completely is an error in the view, in my opinion.

No mind is not a thoughtless mind. No mind is a non-grasping awareness. When we are no longer identified with the mind (thoughts/emotions/feelings), and abide as pure awareness upon which impressions rise and dissipate.

 

Beautiful! Thanks for sharing @Spotless and @steve  and @Jonesboy

Edited May 9, 2019 by dwai

[doc benway]

19 minutes ago, joeblast said:

if one trains for it, it absolutely happens - and its not quite so much trying not to think, so much as simply keeping the focus of awareness.

 

when that happens, the samhadi is a moment.  a moment that if done right lasts a couple hours.  

 

I agree, it happens both with and without training depending on the individual. It is simply a transient state although it can be quite prolonged and profound. I did not mean to imply the mind is never quiet. Thought and activity of mind will eventually resume and continue as long as we are alive.

 

My point is that our meditation should eventually be stable with and without the activity of mind, speech, and body. Quieting the mind is simply the first step toward identifying the mind’s nature, independent of its contents. Once that nature is realized with certainty, we rest there as consistently as possible and any  activity eventually loses its power to disturb. If our meditation is limited to times of a quiet mind, we are missing enormous opportunity to practice and grow. Once again, just my opinion and observation.

[ilumairen]

Do others here see the "door of the mind" as the heart? And what do you (anyone who cares to reply) believe this would indicate in regards to us soo often looking to thoughts when considering the word "mind" as set forth in a spiritual context?

[doc benway]

10 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

Bad advice, Steve - It’s the resting easy that causes all that dying!  

 

Nothing wrong with dying...

People do it all the time!

[dwai]

2 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

Do others here see the "door of the mind" as the heart? And what do you (anyone who cares to reply) believe this would indicate in regards to us soo often looking to thoughts when considering the word "mind" as set forth in a spiritual context?

Mind to me is a field of thoughts, that's all (that is how it is defined in the Hindu traditions). Mind is a process that borrows the light of awareness. It is reflected awareness that splits itself into subject and object.  

(but that becomes too much theory...)

 

[Sebastian]

25 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

that causes all that dying!  

 

 

Strange coincidence.... with all this talk about being "unkillable", dying and coming back etc.... I googled "unkillable" and found this animal.

 

 

Apparently they are literally unkillable and will see our human Sun die.

 

I also couldn't help but see the resemblance to freeform's avatar.

 

Am I onto something here ?

 

Is meditation about being unkillable then ? (I revise my previous view that meditation was basically suicide).

 

Is it about being like this bug ?

 

The original article was here https://newatlas.com/tardigrades-survive-until-death-sun/50479/

Edited May 9, 2019 by Sebastian

[ilumairen]

5 minutes ago, Sebastian said:

 

Strange coincidence.... with all this talk about being "unkillable", dying and coming back etc.... I googled "unkillable" and found this animal.

 

https://img.newatlas.com/tardigrades-survive-until-death-sun-1.jpg?auto=format%2Ccompress&ch=Width%2CDPR&dpr=2&fit=crop&h=347&q=40&rect=0%2C132%2C1350%2C759&w=616&s=e885db139b9cb27214facb3dcd5dbfb1

 

Apparently they are literally unkillable and will see our human Sun die.

 

I also couldn't help but see the resemblance to freeform's avatar.

 

Am I onto something here ?

 

Is meditation about being unkillable then ? (I revise my previous view that meditation was basically suicide).

 

Is it about being like this bug ?

 

The original article was here https://newatlas.com/tardigrades-survive-until-death-sun/50479/

 

Perhaps it's both? The death of your self (intellectualized, reified, and strongly held ideas about who you are), and recognition of your (undying) Self?

[ilumairen]

This thread is fun. 

 

Thanks guys. 

 

[doc benway]

Fun discussion.

Getting on a plane right now.

I look forward to seeing what has transpired when I next check in.

 

[Jonesboy]

5 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

Do others here see the "door of the mind" as the heart? And what do you (anyone who cares to reply) believe this would indicate in regards to us soo often looking to thoughts when considering the word "mind" as set forth in a spiritual context?

 

In Kashmir Shaivism the Heart is the Mind.

You could also say the heart is when one has moved beyond the local mind or has realized they are one and the same.

 

People get confused when it comes to thoughts and it is easy to understand why. When we first start meditation what is the first thing we experience? Silence..  We then as is so often the case believe that silence is the goal. It is what we experience in mediation, it is blissful, expansive and amazing.

 

Yet it isn't the goal.

 

Thoughts are not bad, a Buddha would talk, teach and write. Each of those things require one to think.

 

It is the Clarity of ones thoughts that matter.

 

Buddhism is really good at explaining the 3 aspects of the Primordial State. Void, Energy and Clarity.

 

So back to your questions, our thoughts and our attachments shows us where we are and what we need to work on. As one progresses from silence, to the movement of thoughts, to residing in the movement of thoughts you gain more tools to work on ones attachments to realize deeper levels of clarity, or self.

 

[Sebastian]

8 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

 

Perhaps it's both? The death of your self (intellectualized, reified, and strongly held ideas about who you are), and recognition of your (undying) Self?

 

I gotcha.... so it's like a suicide that doesn't completely kill you then. Sorry to hijack this thread by the way, please go on....

[freeform]

23 minutes ago, Sebastian said:

Is it about being like this bug ?

 

Tardigrades are great  They can survive outer space even.

 

12 minutes ago, Jonesboy said:

When we first start meditation what is the first thing we experience? Silence.. 

 

When I first started (at age 6 actually) I realised just how noisy and scattered the experience is.

 

12 minutes ago, Jonesboy said:

Thoughts are not bad

 

Completely agree!

 

12 minutes ago, Jonesboy said:

As one progresses from silence, to the movement of thoughts, to residing in the movement of thoughts you gain more tools to work on ones attachments to realize deeper levels of clarity, or self.

 

I think it’s just a case of different traditions having different processes.

[freeform]

35 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

Do others here see the "door of the mind" as the heart? And what do you (anyone who cares to reply) believe this would indicate in regards to us soo often looking to thoughts when considering the word "mind" as set forth in a spiritual context?

 

One of the main ‘meditative’ sitting practices in many Daoist lines is Xin Zhai - or Heart-mind Fasting... it’s effect is what it sounds like it would be

Edited May 9, 2019 by freeform

[ilumairen]

21 minutes ago, steve said:

Fun discussion.

Getting on a plane right now.

I look forward to seeing what has transpired when I next check in.

 

 

Following Steve out the door for now. Gotta work. 

 

Until soon everyone... have fun. 

 

Safe travels steve.

Edited May 9, 2019 by ilumairen

[Jonesboy]

21 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

Tardigrades are great  They can survive outer space even.

 

 

When I first started (at age 6 actually) I realised just how noisy and scattered the experience is.

 

 

Completely agree!

 

 

I think it’s just a case of different traditions having different processes.

 

 

Is silence and energy two separate things?

 

Void/form, Shiva/Shakti, Yin/Yang..

 

Just stages of realization..

 

I would agree that when one first starts they realize how little control they have over their thoughts, how trapped they are or as you said, how busy the mind is.

Edited May 9, 2019 by Jonesboy

[Spotless]

From beginning meditators one often hears two complaints:

 

I feel pressure

 

It is boring

 

This is caused from the location of the Light of Presence and ones inclinations and habituations and willfulness.

 

Most humans have their attention in the forward part of the head or just outside of the forehead - with an inclusion of some of it generally still forward inside. The forward area is among other things where we analyze - it is the swarm of our habituated frequencies - it is our work desk for thinking and rethinking.

 

Trying to Be in this location with our Awareness and not have thoughts is for many something that will create pressure - like going to a bar and telling everyone your not there to drink and please don't bother me about it.

 

For some this is also an area of considerable clarity and dominance - it is the work desk - the drivers seat. Trying to Be in this location with Awareness is like sitting at your work desk and not working - sitting in the cockpit and sitting on the tarmac.

 

Simply be with Awareness - Presence in the center of the head - in other words just move back an inch or two.

 

-----

 

As this has progressed - Be in the central axis of your bodies:

 

From the perineum to the top of the head and just slightly back - the axis is the root, the trunk and the canopy

 

Be in this Axis - any where along it or in all of it

 

Feel it from the abdomen - upward

 

It is much easier to abide in the center of the head and / or anywhere in the axis.

 

there is an endless and effortless dissolving of channels and bodies - simply Be in the Axis - in Presence

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 9, 2019 by Spotless

[joeblast]

2 hours ago, ilumairen said:

Do others here see the "door of the mind" as the heart? And what do you (anyone who cares to reply) believe this would indicate in regards to us soo often looking to thoughts when considering the word "mind" as set forth in a spiritual context?

there was a certain heart-linking, harmonization, whaddyacallit....and a couple forms of...the second one is after the breath is ongoing silent, another relates to that pre-cognitive stirring...

[manitou]

2 hours ago, Sebastian said:

 

 

Strange coincidence.... with all this talk about being "unkillable", dying and coming back etc.... I googled "unkillable" and found this animal.

 

 

Apparently they are literally unkillable and will see our human Sun die.

 

I also couldn't help but see the resemblance to freeform's avatar.

 

Am I onto something here ?

 

Is meditation about being unkillable then ? (I revise my previous view that meditation was basically suicide).

 

Is it about being like this bug ?

 

The original article was here https://newatlas.com/tardigrades-survive-until-death-sun/50479/

 

 

I'm guessing this animal is very regular.

[Pilgrim]

Replying from this topic Coming from Kriya Yoga we practice the final half of the 8 limbs of yoga,  actually the final 3  but they are not segregated into stages they flow naturally from one to the other. Most people get hung up on Pranayam, the breathless state and techniques and miss everything in Kriya and move onto other curiosities.

 

It is not until the 7^th Limb Dhyana that Meditation actually occurs where one merges and becomes a continuous flow of awareness until then one is not meditating or in true meditation. What they are doing is focusing or concentrating.

 

One way to understand the difference between concentration and meditation is by comparing it to rain.

 

When rain starts, the moisture of clouds and fog (everyday awareness) make concentrated moisture and becomes individual raindrops. These raindrops are like dharana—intermittent moments of concentrated or focused attention.

 

When the enough rain falls it makes a river, the merging of the individual raindrops into one stream is like dhyana or meditation.

 

The separate raindrops merge into one continuous flow, from these individual moments of dharana merge into the uninterrupted focus of meditation.

 

People often use the word meditate to mean to think, but in Kriya, meditation is not thinking; instead, it is a deep sense of unity with the triple divine qualities and bliss and beyond.

 

The express purpose of yoga is for the modifications of mind to cease  by aftereffect of practice which naturally brings into place a condition we call Paravastha of Kriya in which the mind stuff cease taking various forms.

 

Kriya Yoga essentially consists of  practices culminating in attaining a state of consciousness free from all modes of active thought and of eventually attaining a state where consciousness is unaware of any object external to itself that is is only aware of its own nature as consciousness unmixed with any other object.

 

Spoiler

The 4^th limb is pranayama. True Pranyama is not the stuff being sold in exercise studios. True Pranyama only occurs after the in breath and the out-breath become equalized and negate each other becoming the true Khumbaka. This cannot happen until one has some familiarity with energy and bliss.

 

Spoiler

The 5^th Limb of Yoga is Pratyahara this is sense withdraw,  withdrawing the extroverted energy from the senses inwards into the Sushumna but this cannot be done without the ability to first feel and manipulate ones energy.

 

Spoiler

The 6^th Limb is Dharana this is 1 pointedness single focus of mind which can only happen once minds connection to the senses is severed and there is a subject of sufficient interest IE: Bliss. The mind does not jump around from thing to thing but becomes absorbed in bliss, it can also be the sound of the Nadis, bliss is the sure way to the next limb. Bliss comes from the triple divine qualities of Vibration / Pulsation, Divine sound, Divine light.

 

Spoiler

The 7^th Limb is Dhyana:  Here one becomes actively engaged with the focus of Dharana the 6^th limb. This is the flow of uninterrupted flow of awareness.

 

Spoiler

The 8^th and final limb is Samadhi, Samadhi is oneness with the subject of Dhyana here one literally loses their mind

as the mind loses its own sense of identity.

 

Here there be two kinds Savikalpa Samadhi is type 1 with 4 main divisions. And Nirvakalpa Samadi.

 

Spoiler

Savakalpa Samadhi meditation with support of an object this is associated with I AMness, and Bliss, Within Savakalpa Samadhi there are four main subdivisions.

 

Spoiler

Kind 1a. Deliberate: Which is concentration on an external object something that can be perceived with the senses like the image of a god or a flame. This we do not do In Kriya Yoga.

 

Spoiler

Kind 1b. Reflective: The mind is concentrated on a subtle object of meditation which is not perceptiable to the senses but comes from Inference like I Amness, the chakras, prana (Energy) the Nadis (the channels the energy flows through.) This becomes the stilling of reflection. This we do in Kriya Yoga.

 

Spoiler

Kind 1c. Bliss: A more subtle state than the 2 above. This we do in Kriya Yoga.  It is more of a happening than a doing.

 

Spoiler

Kind 1d.  I Amness this is done in Kriya Yoga as it is the natural Transition from Bliss so it is more of a happening than a doing just like the others cited above.

 

Spoiler

Nirvakalpa Samadhi: = Meditation without and object. This is as close as can be told because here there is no mind left and this goes so deep as to be indescribable.

 

The stages leading up to it can be described and I can in great detail.

 

The stages of returning from it can be described and I can in great detail.

 

In the middle anyone who says they can describe it do not know Nirvakalpa Samadhi.

 

[ilumairen]

8 hours ago, freeform said:

 

One of the main ‘meditative’ sitting practices in many Daoist lines is Xin Zhai - or Heart-mind Fasting... it’s effect is what it sounds like it would be

 

Would you be willing to describe this a bit more?

 

And, as an aside, would somebody please explain why my cheeks are pretty much on fire as I'm reading and responding here? 

 

:looking around:

[Sebastian]

7 hours ago, Spotless said:

From beginning meditators one often hears two complaints:

 

I feel pressure

 

It is boring

 

This is caused from the location of the Light of Presence and ones inclinations and habituations and willfulness.

 

Most humans have their attention in the forward part of the head or just outside of the forehead - with an inclusion of some of it generally still forward inside. The forward area is among other things where we analyze - it is the swarm of our habituated frequencies - it is our work desk for thinking and rethinking.

 

Trying to Be in this location with our Awareness and not have thoughts is for many something that will create pressure - like going to a bar and telling everyone your not there to drink and please don't bother me about it.

 

For some this is also an area of considerable clarity and dominance - it is the work desk - the drivers seat. Trying to Be in this location with Awareness is like sitting at your work desk and not working - sitting in the cockpit and sitting on the tarmac.

 

Simply be with Awareness - Presence in the center of the head - in other words just move back an inch or two.

 

-----

 

As this has progressed - Be in the central axis of your bodies:

 

From the perineum to the top of the head and just slightly back - the axis is the root, the trunk and the canopy

 

Be in this Axis - any where along it or in all of it

 

Feel it from the abdomen - upward

 

It is much easier to abide in the center of the head and / or anywhere in the axis.

 

there is an endless and effortless dissolving of channels and bodies - simply Be in the Axis - in Presence

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is a great post about residing along the central channel. Do you experience a sense of inner-self as well ? Like a light being within ? When I connect along the central channel, I find I have a sense of inner-self too.