Anyone familiar with this rare Qigong form ?

[vonkrankenhaus]

17 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

I could give it a whirl, but it would just be a couple of techniques out of ten thousand.

 

Yeah - if you can make video, then good if you can post a couple advanced things dealing with 8 Extraordinary Channels, or even anything you see as advanced Qigong.

 

So - not Neigong, meditations or stuff like that. Extraordinary Channels type stuff in Qigong, physical movement or posture or like "yoga", etc.

 

Or - okay if you show Neigong and "say" what Extraordinary Channels connecting what, etc.

 

Or even okay if you post anyone online video of what you see as advanced Qigong dealing with same subject.

 

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[Starjumper]

30 minutes ago, vonkrankenhaus said:

 

Yeah - if you can make video, then good if you can post a couple advanced things dealing with 8 Extraordinary Channels, or even anything you see as advanced Qigong.

 

So - not Neigong, meditations or stuff like that. Extraordinary Channels type stuff in Qigong, physical movement or posture or like "yoga", etc.

 

Or - okay if you show Neigong and "say" what Extraordinary Channels connecting what, etc.

 

Or even okay if you post anyone online video of what you see as advanced Qigong dealing with same subject.

 

 

No can do 8 channels as high power, it is low power, and I don't think in terms of channels but rather of massaging the aura, if I think, which I don't, usually.  I was thinking more of like head energy stuff, or above the head energy.

 

The best way to make that 8 channel stuff higher energy would be to do it a lot slower and fewer reps

[mrpasserby]

Sorry if I got off track. In the videos of the 8 meridian forms I saw powering up moves that looked similar to (____) circle moves, and I was interested if any of the 8 meridian forms where done in a full circle. Starjumper as a (____) enthusiast caught on to what I was looking for write away. Thanks to all for your Patience. 

[Starjumper]

Turning in full circles is done, Maybe it is neglected because it doesn't work well for a class setting to turn all the way around...  I guess.

[vonkrankenhaus]

1 hour ago, mrpasserby said:

I was interested if any of the 8 meridian forms where done in a full circle

 

 

Nobody here studies Qigong?

 

Looks like you mean something like 8 Trigrams Boxing - Baguazhang:

 

"The practice of circle walking, or "turning the circle", as it is sometimes called, is Baguazhang's characteristic method of stance and movement training. All forms of Baguazhang utilize circle walking as an integral part of training. Practitioners walk around the edge of the circle in various low stances, facing the center, and periodically change direction as they execute forms".

 

But that's nothing of what we discussing in the videos. It something else.

 

Bagua - This is the arrangement of 8 trigrams. Usually Lo Shu arrangement.

 

8 Extraordinary Channels are "meridians" that are not the 12 organ channels, and use in both Taoist and Buddhist Qigong. Chinese medicine book can show them. In Qigong, these are generally like reservoirs and interact with the 12 organ channels and other things.

 

But if you want to doing circles, yeah - try Baguazhang.

 

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[freeform]

8 hours ago, vonkrankenhaus said:

Extraordinary Channels type stuff in Qigong, physical movement or posture

 

So how do Qigong movements affect the 8 extraordinary channels?

 

I’m asking because I personally can’t affect (to any great extent) the congenital channels with ‘ordinary’ Qigong...

 

There is primordial or congenital Qigong which can begin to work with the channels, but that depends on your foundation and whether you have certain alchemical conditions in place... 

 

So I was wondering if the ‘advanced stuff’ you we’re talking about is something like that... from the video you posted - not even close

Edited May 21, 2019 by freeform

[vonkrankenhaus]

8 minutes ago, freeform said:

So how do Qigong movements affect the 8 extraordinary channels?

 

That's huge, because Ren and Du channels are Extraordinary channels.

 

Not much known about these channels generally (except those two), so people don't see much discussion.

 

But these are connections, reservoirs, and can effect the 12 organ channels in various way.

 

We use the connections in diagnosis of conditions, to make connections not in just the 12 organ channels.

 

These control some lymphatic and hormonal functions, so "feed" the organ channels.

 

There is Qigong for all of this.

 

But I see some people today do not understand the channels so well, and this lead to them called "psychic channels" and behaviors attached to them. So they imagine to do NeiGong meditations with these channels. These are just pointing to the functions above though - so that is a second-hand way of seeing them.

 

And you are incorrect about the form I showed. There is MUCH in that form that effect the 12 organ channels and the Ren and Du, and the lymphatic function, and the connections of "feeding" from the Extraordinary to the organ channels.

.

But you need to know what you are seeing. There is tons of separate and specific Qigong exercises in it. And much WaiDan, tensions & release, etc.

 

What do you see? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[freeform]

On 09/05/2019 at 4:57 PM, Sebastian said:

As per the name, the set opens the 8 extra-ordinary meridians in sequence.

 

Can you give some details of the internal principles for this form?

[freeform]

25 minutes ago, vonkrankenhaus said:

But these are connections, reservoirs, and can effect the 12 organ channels in various way.

 

We use the connections in diagnosis of conditions, to make connections not in just the 12 organ channels.

 

Sure - that’s the understanding from a medical perspective.

 

From an alchemical perspective there is a lot more to these congenital channels.

 

27 minutes ago, vonkrankenhaus said:

What do you see?

 

Not internal enough to touch the congenital channels to any great extent...

 

8 hours ago, Starjumper said:

The best way to make that 8 channel stuff higher energy would be to do it a lot slower and fewer reps

 

Slower is definitely part of the equation... but there are other important principles too...

[vonkrankenhaus]

9 minutes ago, freeform said:

Not internal enough to touch the congenital channels to any great extent...

 

You've been bullshitted.

 

Did you study "Psychic Channels" stuff?

 

Do it a whole life and you'll see - it is junk.

 

People bought documents they didn't understand.

 

Now, teaching. Woof!

 

These channels are functional, and alchemy based on them for real goes through Qigong workings first, after establish long time base by activities like Gongfu. Modern "guided meditations" stuff isn't honest NeiGong. It's "New Age" interpretations, and that why you see it everywhere - easy to bullshit modern people and they like thinking about themselves a lot in all kind of ways..

 

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

Edited May 21, 2019 by vonkrankenhaus

[freeform]

19 minutes ago, vonkrankenhaus said:

You've been bullshitted.

 

No I haven’t

 

19 minutes ago, vonkrankenhaus said:

Did you study "Psychic Channels" stuff?

 

No. I don’t know what this is referring to.

 

19 minutes ago, vonkrankenhaus said:

These channels are functional, and alchemy based on them for real goes through Qigong workings first, after establish long time base

 

Yup you’re right - touching these channels in any significant way requires a substantial foundation. 

 

Otherwise its like blowing air through your mouth, and expecting that to move a big river - you might make a small ripple on the surface, but not much more.

 

But touching it deeply (like establishing a deep current under the surface of the water) requires specific principles... I wanted to see if we were on the same page on that, but it doesn’t seem like it - which is fine

 

 

[Sebastian]

3 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

Can you give some details of the internal principles for this form?

 

 

Sure.... I can try. But there's a lot going on energetically for each move. So let me explain this 'retirement house Qigong' to you, which gets a bad rap at face value  At least movement 1, I'll list a few of them that I can think off right now. (Just back from the gym)

 

Movement 1 - MCO

 

* Uses principle of physical rotation and associated energetic response. Since Qi mirrors physical movement, it also starts to rotate. In this case, you create an arc by bowing the spine slightly backwards and then forwards. And the Qi mirrors this rotation. This feels a bit like an antenna (your spine) and you're holding the tip and going backwards and forwards a tad. It's opening up the top of the back and the top of the chest alternatively, one part is either compressed or expanded. It's push-pull. The Qi goes down or up.... MCO.

 

* Uses principle of accumulation and compression of Qi into Dantian. When you come back down with the palms and you start pressing down on the Dantian bubble or field, you are compressing Qi there. You are literally holding the Dantian in your arms, and you will feel it when the arms are quite high, but I guess it depends how much Qi people have. The volume starts out large, but as you get closer to the physical Dantian, the auric volume gets smaller. Your palms become very numb. This feels like holding and pressing on a huge open balloon to deflate it in your belly, and through your back, if that speaks to you.

 

* Uses principle of vertical movement and associated energetic response (similar to 1). For example when you raise your arms, Qi is subtly going down. There is always an energetic polarity which creates a response that is opposite to whatever physical movement you are doing. So when we are coming back down and pressing on the Dantian, we are moving the arms down, that's right, but Qi is subtly going up the spine at the same time. This is counter-intuitive, but when you do this movement, you will feel it ascending through the neck. This enhances the effect greatly.

 

* Note that this form also doesn't "pack Qi" and hurt you in any way, because you are bending progressively forward, so the Qi keeps ascending up the spine. The Dantian is overflowing to the back. It's not like standing stiff and keep pumping Qi into a narrow point.

 

OK... Now does this really open the back and front channel ? Can any "physical" movement really do that ? You tell me...

 

But does this movement affect or influence the natural movement of Qi in the back and front channel ???? Humm, I'd say yes...

 

But I'll also say you need Dantian development to really play with the front and back channel.

 

If you do this movement and truly feel the effect, then you'll be wondering about the rest, and how they effect the other 8 meridians. It's quite awesome.... at least to me, even though it's so boring looking.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Sebastian]

Haaaaa... can't help myself. OK here's two more principles for that form. Of course all this theory stuff is useless, just do the form and it happens for you. .

 

Movement 1: (Additional principles)

 

* Qi follows vision. If you try to imitate the Master on the video, you probably won't pay attention to your vision, but if you do, you'll notice that you automatically look up when the arms are above the head. This makes Qi rise to Bahui. And when the hands come down, you'll also notice you look at them. So Qi follows the eyes. This 8 meridian set uses vision a lot like this, especially movement 3 where the instruction is to look at your middle finger the whole time, for the baseball pitch.

 

* Subtle rocking on heels and toes causes an energetic response too. When you reach towards the back there's naturally a small impulse on the heel as you fight against gravity, and when you gather back down there is more pressure on the toes. This also has an effect on the flow of Qi, up and down.

 

Anyways, these are really minor additions and not worth mentioning.. But I figured why not.... And feel free to add more principles you see or correct me in my understanding, which mostly comes from practicing this form. I'm no expert, maybe not even a beginner. Just a Dao Bum who perseveres in these arts for a long time.

 

 

[Starjumper]

OK I made the video but it looks like no one wants to see what I think is high energy chi kung, they only want to see 8 Meridian as high energy?  Haha, get a life.  Hmm, where to post, where to post.

 

Ok, I posted it here, just some spontaneous stuff.  It's over an hour long and only has two movements.  I'm curious to know if anyone here is strong enough to do it.   https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/49243-black-dragon-chi-kung/

Edited May 21, 2019 by Starjumper

[vonkrankenhaus]

8 hours ago, freeform said:

wanted to see if we were on the same page on that, but it doesn’t seem like it

 

No, not exactly on same page!

 

I did read your explanations, and did see Starjumper's video.

 

All is okay, and I'm not being negative.

 

Some time I will just put up a video or two, and explaining.

 

That would show where pages are. Otherwise - too much writing.

 

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[dawei]

Can you relate the time-start of each movement... given an hour video... 

[Sebastian]

Yes, sorry. When you click each will go to the right time mark, but the splash image is always the same it looks like. Youtube does this. 

 

Movement 1(MCO)

 

 

Movement 2 part 1 (Bird flaps wings - Chong Mai)

 

 

Movement 2 part 2 (Raise heels and thump - Chong Mai)

 

 

Movement 2 part 3 (rapid hand fluttering - Chong Mai)

 

 

Movement 3 (baseball pitch - yin wei, yang wei, and yin heel, yang heel merdians)

 

 

Movement 5 (belt channel)

 

 

Hope this helps.

 

 

Edited May 22, 2019 by Sebastian

[Sebastian]

Also, what's interesting about this set is that each movement further opens the MCO, while opening the other extras. For example:

 

Movement 2: The thump sends a vibration up the spine and opens the back. The raising and dropping of the arms makes Qi go up and down, both in the central channel, and also the ren and du. So it's like you keep knocking on the door of the Du Meridian. Thump, and then the Qi comes up and knocks at the door again... Thump and then knock... Practically you are breaking through C7, the back of the skull, and the shoulder's nest.  

 

Movement 3: When you draw a 360 degree circle with you arm and watch the middle finger the whole time, your Qi is mirroring the movement and doing circles. At mid-point you'll notice you are looking at the sky, Qi is at bahui, and when you're looking down at the feet, you connect the small universe to the leg channels. Also you'll notice that the person is pressing the Du meridian control point for the hand that is against the hip.

 

Movement 4: You are connecting Ming-men to Dantian with the palms while the side to side movement of the legs is stimulating the perineum. These three points are in what some people call the 'small-small-universe' flow.

 

Anyways, this is what I feel energetically when I do this, at least to me. But if you want to experience the energetics fully, you need these mental cues (which I've mentioned in bits and pieces before)

 

Movement 1: When you come down, press down on the Dantian with the hands, so you feel pressure and the hands become numb.

Movement 2: When you flap wings down (and also up) feel resistance from the air/qi in the environment, it feels like you are always pushing against something. Imagine your central channel to be like a trunk of a tree, very stable, and the arms are like small branches. The symmetry combined with the motion the arms makes you highly aware of the central pole.

Movement 3: Place all the weight on the leg that is bent. The other should be weightless and delicately touching the earth on its heel, and extended. Then trace a large circle and watch the middle finger the entire time, until the middle finger touches the big toe of the other leg.

Movement 4: When you turn right, turn from the waist, and shift your weight to the left leg as the hands circulate from Dantian to Mingmen. Then do reverse. When you turn left, shift body weight on right leg.

 

If you want to practice this, I recommend you learn from the Master directly. I can only do show and tell here. I do this so you can try and get a feel for how the system works the 8 meridians, since this was the aim of this thread. Otherwise I don't think this is a dangerous set at all, but proceed with caution as with everything else. 

 

[vonkrankenhaus]

To me, these are exercise for old people.

 

You want to work Thrusting vessel - why? To support movement up the Governing vessel to brain.

 

Flap arms and heels up and down is very wimpy way to get this going. Burping would be more profound effect.

 

In the video I showed first before, look at 55 seconds. 

 

This position squeeze Thrusting vessel into the Governing vessel. With back 90 degree horizontal (he is not all the way, but correct way is 90 degree), this changes the polarity to the head, making Qi fast. Arms out makes tension, cutting flow off from arms and focus into the Governing vessel going up to head. 

 

If you isolate this action from the form, and form is just a catalog made into a "set", then realize there are other actions that go with it when separated out, taught personally by a teacher. These fold up the system at first to end in the position at 55 seconds, and holding this position.

 

I have seen tense people fly up or shoot forward off their feet doing this. You massage Difficult Gate, sides of head,  and down the front Conception vessel and they are okay. 

 

Form I showed has many Qigong, all doing stuff you describe, but much more focus and potent, but these are transmission from teachers and you need to know to be able to pick out.

 

I see the Qigong you show in the video, and I see that kind a lot now. It is very generalized. Like official standardized stuff is.

 

I am just showing a different perspective - type of actions many do not see today in the same context.

 

After that action I show, we do one activate the middle of the brain, using Qi brought up. You become "psychic". I know one guy who do this and actually became a professional psychic for years after this.

 

Standing with that guy in back yard - all your life and never go far, but good for health and circulation for sure. Very good for that, and for people who sit in office all day.

 

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[Sebastian]

Thanks for your feedback VonKrankenhaus and also all the other wonderful people who contributed in this thread. Especially star-jumper who is giving me more info about the shaking move via PM.

 

I watched at 55 seconds in your video, this does look really advanced, and fast too. Thanks for explaining the principles, wow that is a quick succession of moves in the that video.

We also have the same understanding of the role of the Thrusting vessel. My 4 moves is like a really bare bones version in comparison of what you showed in the video.

 

I also experience some psychic effects from this set, which probably has to do with the repeated thumping of heels which sends a vibration straight to the brain, and also the opening of the thrusting channel. I see auras with my eyes open at around two thirds through. I've never experienced this with any other set.

 

It is mild and gentle, good for old people, yup. But I viewed the thumping as a potent technique, not "wimpy" to stimulate the brain and thrusting. In fact the Masters caution about doing this one too much. The top of the spine gets burning hot. I don't think burping would achieve the same spinal effect, but I can see burping or opening the mouth wide driving Qi upwards for sure.

 

Thanks for your feedback, and got to run, got a guitar session coming up in 10 min.

 

 

 

[Sebastian]

Oh and let me know if you see subtle ways to improve these 4 movements, without changing the form, based on your experience, VonKrankenhaus.  Although I understand you said that your perspective on 8 meridians required transmissions from a Master. Even though..... let me know if you see anything.

 

For example, do you think it is possible to improve upon move 1 to open the MCO ? I asked Starjumper personally, and although he has access to the 10,000 techniques of his lineage, he said he didn't think there was anything better than that move to open these channels through physical movement. Although he would do that one backwards first, and then normal, to calm to down the Qi. But you might have a different opinion. I also haven't found better, that's why I keep coming back to it, but if you wanted to show and tell for the physical MCO that would be great too. Or find improvements for movement 2 which you find weak.

 

 

 

Edited May 22, 2019 by Sebastian

[freeform]

2 hours ago, vonkrankenhaus said:

To me, these are exercise for old people.

 

I’m not talking just about this set specifically...

 

But looks can be very deceptive... the simplest looking movement can be extremely difficult, uncomfortable and powerful when done using the correct principles.

 

I find that the simplest looking ones are actually often the most powerful. It’s just that the inner mechanics are not usually taught openly...

[Sebastian]

1 hour ago, freeform said:

 

I’m not talking just about this set specifically...

 

How about you Freeform... Do you see any value in this set, either in general, or related to the 8 extra-meridians ?

[freeform]

3 hours ago, Sebastian said:

 

How about you Freeform... Do you see any value in this set, either in general, or related to the 8 extra-meridians ?

 

I think it’s a good set. It’s not ‘wimpy’. What you get out of it depends heavily on the internal principles while doing the set as well as your level of inner ‘connection’... (btw - the principles you mentioned isn’t what I’m talking about!)

 

Would it actually cause much of an effect to the 8 extraordinary meridians? Maybe a little bit - but not to a great extent... but that doesn’t mean it’s not very useful. In fact Qigong simply can’t affect the congenital channels very deeply... but it can help to prepare for the deeper stuff...

[Sebastian]

4 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

I think it’s a good set. It’s not ‘wimpy’. What you get out of it depends heavily on the internal principles while doing the set as well as your level of inner ‘connection’... (btw - the principles you mentioned isn’t what I’m talking about!)

 

 

Yeah agreed. We're working the external to affect the internal, so it's not easy. When you asked for the inner energetics, I provided what I felt energetically when going through the movements.

 

But I think you mean something else by 'principles' ? For example, stuff like relaxation, posture ? If so, could you please share your perspective on the principles required to get motion in these congenital meridians ? Your experience and perspective is valued.