Taoist Texts Posted May 15, 2019 2 minutes ago, Bindi said: If there is no method as you say, then why do you assert that forcing yourself to desire less is the right method? because there is no other way) 2 minutes ago, Bindi said: It's not a method that I use. maybe it is, after all) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bindi Posted May 15, 2019 Just now, dawei said: Ok, so that is a later section. Why not just show the english for all to understand some context... I didn't show Linnell's English translation so as to not prejudice the discussion on cultivation. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawei Posted May 15, 2019 2 minutes ago, Bindi said: If there is no method as you say, then why do you assert that forcing yourself to desire less is the right method? It's not a method that I use. You misunderstood his comments: He is stating there is no method [In Neiye]... he stated that the Neiye suggests to assert that forcing yourself to desire less is the right method... Neiye asserts it. He does not mention your method. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawei Posted May 15, 2019 3 minutes ago, Bindi said: I didn't show Linnell's English translation so as to not prejudice the discussion on cultivation. So you shared a chinese that nobody would understand... ok. the simplest meaning of it is: Mediate and Dao will come... how many actually have that experience ? So either the chinese is wrong or the translation or the application... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawei Posted May 15, 2019 43 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said: It is simple. Working. What is it that Dao does? Lest we forget this morsel. I take your meaning as: Morality = Working So you ask... Dao = ? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bindi Posted May 15, 2019 11 minutes ago, dawei said: So you shared a chinese that nobody would understand... ok. the simplest meaning of it is: Mediate and Dao will come... how many actually have that experience ? So either the chinese is wrong or the translation or the application... Can you explain more about what you mean by 'mediate'? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bindi Posted May 15, 2019 14 minutes ago, dawei said: You misunderstood his comments: He is stating there is no method [In Neiye]... he stated that the Neiye suggests to assert that forcing yourself to desire less is the right method... Neiye asserts it. He does not mention your method. Can you show me where this is asserted in the Neiye? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawei Posted May 15, 2019 4 minutes ago, Bindi said: Can you explain more about what you mean by 'mediate'? you posted four characters as: 修 心 靜 意 - Order Heart Calm To-thought The heart is calmed by the mind; Meditation Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawei Posted May 15, 2019 15 minutes ago, Bindi said: Can you show me where this is asserted in the Neiye? It has been discussed in the first two chapters. Seems an interpretative difference. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Taoist Texts Posted May 15, 2019 44 minutes ago, dawei said: So you ask... Dao = ? well, we know a thing by what it does. A table supports, a hammer hits, a stone just sits on the ground. What does Dao do? Maybe it creates the world, may be it manages it, maybe it makes plants grow. What is its function? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bindi Posted May 15, 2019 35 minutes ago, dawei said: It has been discussed in the first two chapters. Seems an interpretative difference. I don't think desire has been mentioned at all in the first two chapters. Force was mentioned in relation to qi and how to interact with it: 是 故 此 氣 也 Thus this Qi –不 可 止 以 力 Can not be brought to rest by using force,而 可 安 以 德 But can be calmed by using De. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bindi Posted May 15, 2019 41 minutes ago, dawei said: you posted four characters as: 修 心 靜 意 - Order Heart Calm To-thought The heart is calmed by the mind; Meditation Is it definitely meditation or could it be a more active kind of thinking, like contemplation? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Taoist Texts Posted May 15, 2019 8 minutes ago, Bindi said: Thus this Qi which one exactly?) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bindi Posted May 15, 2019 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said: which one exactly?) My question was in relation to forcing oneself to desire less, not forcing and qi. Can you point to the verse/s in the Neiye that assert that forcing oneself to desire less is the right method? Edited May 15, 2019 by Bindi Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Taoist Texts Posted May 15, 2019 12 minutes ago, Bindi said: Can you point to the verse/s that assert this is the method suggested in the Neiye? certainly. 节欲 restrict desires v.10 节其五欲 restrict 5 desires v.7 心之刑(形) to cut heart v.1, 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apech Posted May 15, 2019 5 hours ago, Bindi said: I've researched a bit about proto-Daoism just now, and found that the “Neiye” 内業 , Daode jing 道德經 , and Zhuangzi 莊子 are all considered to be proto-Daoism/classical Daoism/early Daoism. What I was interested in earlier was in what ways the Neiye is different to the Daode jing in its philosophy and methods, because I was assuming (and might be wildly wrong in this assumption) that Daoists in general look to the DDJ. I'm reading Dawei's link. I think some would see it like that but I know from on here that others see it differently - and I'm a bit suspicious about the idea of a neat historical progression (but that's just me ). 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bindi Posted May 15, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said: certainly. 节欲 restrict desires v.10 节其五欲 restrict 5 desires v.7 心之刑(形) to cut heart v.1, 3 Restrict desires as in sexual abstinence? Maybe my understanding is way out, in the translations I have at hand ch 13 is written 8 Jing: put aside thinking of it, 9 Still your effort to control it. 10 Strictly and reverently venerate it 11 And Jing will naturally stablize. - Shazi Daoren Still your attempts to imagine and conceive of it. Relax your efforts to think about and control it. Abide in dignity and reverence And vital essence will naturally become stable. - Yueya's PDF 精 想 思 之 This essence – consider it and contemplate it, 寧 念 治 之 Rather than study ways to regulate it. 嚴 容 畏 敬 Keeping a serious appearance, and an attitude of awe and respect*, 精 將 至 定 Essence will arrive and settle. - Linnell I don't see how your references in chapters 7 and 10 relate, maybe when we get to them I will see what you mean. Edited May 15, 2019 by Bindi 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Taoist Texts Posted May 15, 2019 35 minutes ago, Bindi said: Restrict desires as in sexual abstinence? yes just like that Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Limahong Posted May 15, 2019 1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said: yes just like that Hi Taoist Texts, No ~ your 'yes' is too simplistic/irresponsible to a fault... against the order of Nature. The Tao flows without stagnation... May I add the 7th FLOW catalyst...? Creativity. Are there other FLOW catalyst(s)? - Anand Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apech Posted May 15, 2019 10 hours ago, dawei said: I would recommend The Creation of Daoism by Paul Fischer https://digitalcommons.wku.edu/phil_rel_fac_pub/14/ Thanks read that now. Luckily we are more interested in praxis than theory and personally I go with the shamanic roots of what eventually became the school/religion of Daoism. In which case there is no proto version as such - just various expressions emerging over the years depending on the cultural setting. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
OldDog Posted May 15, 2019 10 hours ago, dawei said: Lest we forget this morsel. I take your meaning as: Morality = Working So you ask... Dao = ? I had to balk a bit on this one. Was not sure what TT was saying. So, rethinking and restating ... The Dao is source of all things (mother of, gives birth to) and puts in motion all of the workings and changes in the natural world. So morality ... as a standard for conduct ... would be to align with the way which Dao has set forth. It would need to be understood that actions operate within Dao. A person's actions may either be in harmony with the natural changes ... or in contention with them. Thus commonly expressed as fortune or misfortune. Perhaps the basis of the notion of the mandate of heaven. This is pretty much where I am at present. That could change with an improved understanding. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Limahong Posted May 15, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, OldDog said: It would need to be understood that actions operate within Dao. Hi OldDog, Actions operate within Dao ~ through inaction? Action <=> Inaction? As in wu-wei? 無爲... Action <=> Inaction. Inaction has no descriptive words attached to it, so... Inaction <=> No words? No words = 無-words. It would need to be understood that actions operate within Dao... without words...? 3 hours ago, OldDog said: I had to balk a bit on this one... So, rethinking and restating ... I am also rethinking and restating... 無爲... Action <=> Inaction... No words... 無-words 無爲 <=> 無-words ? 3 hours ago, OldDog said: This is pretty much where I am at present. That could change with an improved understanding. So am I ~ as you are. - Anand Edited May 15, 2019 by Limahong Enhance ... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vonkrankenhaus Posted May 15, 2019 3 hours ago, OldDog said: It would need to be understood that actions operate within Dao. Maybe you can say "according" to Dao. But Dao is not a place, so no "within". Dao is not a mother or father, and so "gives birth" to no thing. Dao just mean "Way" like saying "The Way it Goes" or "As it so happens". It is not a thing or place or force or any other physical entity. So Dao "itself" cannot "do" anything. -VonKrankenhaus 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Limahong Posted May 15, 2019 5 minutes ago, vonkrankenhaus said: Dao "itself" cannot "do" anything. Hi vonkrankenhaus, Isn't The Dao linked to Nature as for instance ~ sunrise <=> sunset...? - Anand Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vonkrankenhaus Posted May 15, 2019 16 minutes ago, Limahong said: Isn't The Dao linked to Nature Dao is "the Way" of "Nature" and everything. Dao is how, "the way" it works, whatever it is. So this "link" is not a physical linking of objects or places. There is no physical Dao to be linked to any other physical thing. Just like "Reality" isn't any one thing or place. Means the "Way" or "Manner" of reality. -VonKrankenhaus 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
