Neiye - Section 1 - The Essential Qi

[OldDog]

19 minutes ago, vonkrankenhaus said:

Maybe you can say "according" to Dao.

 

But Dao is not a place, so no "within".

 

I think we're splitting hairs here. We could say according but I was deliberately trying to make the distinction that as individuals we can act in accord with way things naturally tend to unfold or against the tendency. I chose "within" to underscore the idea that you can not really operate separate from the Way. The Way is how all things are. We can choose to act in accord or in opposition to the way things want to unfold. Fortune or misfortune all are part of the Way.

[Limahong]

12 minutes ago, vonkrankenhaus said:

So this "link" is not a physical linking of objects or places.

 

There is no physical Dao to be linked to any other physical thing.

 

Hi vonkrankenhaus,

 

Is The Dao ~ sunrise <=> sunset as in... up <=> down... fortune <=> misfortune... Yin <=> Yang...?

 

- Anand

Edited May 15, 2019 by Limahong
Enhance ... thanks to OldDog

[OldDog]

58 minutes ago, Limahong said:

Actions operate within Dao ~ through inaction?

 

Action <=> Inaction? As in wu-wei?

 

Inaction, in a literal sense is always an option. We can always just stop doing and let things happen around us. But I don't think that is what wu wei is all about. That's a simplistic and fatalistic view of wu wei.

 

If I choose to act, are there some choices that yield more desirable outcomes than others? I think so. If I understand how events are unfolding I can choose actions that will produce a more desirable outcome. One of those choices may be to do ... nothing.

 

I think wu wei is more about understanding how events are unfolding and choosing actions that require less effort to achieve an acceptable outcome.

 

 

[Limahong]

5 hours ago, OldDog said:

Inaction, in a literal sense is always an option. We can always just stop doing and let things happen around us. But I don't think that is what wu wei is all about. That's a simplistic and fatalistic view of wu wei.

 

Hi OldDog,

 

"I think we're splitting hairs here. We could say according but I was deliberately trying to make the distinction that as individuals we can act in accord with way things naturally tend to unfold or against the tendency." 

 

 

- Anand

 

 

Edited May 16, 2019 by Limahong
Enhance ...

[dawei]

14 hours ago, Apech said:

 

Thanks read that now.

 

Luckily we are more interested in praxis than theory and personally I go with the shamanic roots of what eventually became the school/religion of Daoism.  In which case there is no proto version as such - just various expressions emerging over the years depending on the cultural setting.

 

 

 

Yes and I agree with that thought... but how to get there may still require broadening one's view of daoism till they change course.. or not.

[Geof Nanto]

Once again, here's my comment written before reading most of the above....

 

Following from the previous verse, the qi being referred to here is likewise the shen of later Daoism, as in the conceptual model: Jing Qi Shen (精氣神). At the highest level, to my mind, this shen can be likened to Buddha Mind, or to the Christian notion of Holy Spirit. Hence we have this description of the first five lines from  A C Graham: “This may well be the earliest Chinese interpretation of the experience of mystical oneness.”

 

(Roth bases his version of line five on what he considers from his extensive research to be the wording of the original line. I followed Roth in my version but if I were redoing it I’d go with something like Eno’s: "So compact! As though residing within oneself." Or go free form and add Eno’s as a new line after Roth’s line five.)

 

The second part of the verse brings in the important notions of de and also awareness / intent. In my comment on the first chapter I wrote: “Whereas for the sage of the Neiye the same vital essence burns continually with a steady glow. They have somehow transmuted vital essence into something stable and manageable.” Here we learn this stabilisation requires personal de. Moreover, the vital essence (shen) itself helps develop de. They must be allowed to work together for wisdom to develop. 

 

(For those who aren't familiar with the Chinese notion of de there's extensive discussion on it in the archives of DaoBums and on the web in general.)  
 

 

Edited May 17, 2019 by Yueya

[Limahong]

On 5/17/2019 at 6:06 AM, Yueya said:

Jing Qi Shen

 

Hi Yueya,

 

精氣神 is ONE as linked to A C Graham's ~ “This may well be the earliest Chinese interpretation of the experience of mystical oneness.”?

 

Are they a trinity ~ one cannot do/be without the other two?

 

 

 

Jing Qi Shen ~ is ONE as in The Dao?

 

 

 

From your Booklet ~ verse 4...

The Dao is what infuses the body,

Yet the people are unable to fix it in place.

 

 

Can mystical oneness be my personal being, philosophy, sense (feel)... of ONE?

 

 

A Blessed Vesak.

 

- Anand

 

 

Edited May 18, 2019 by Limahong
Enhance ...

[Geof Nanto]

Without access to Roth's critical text, it's impossible to critique his translation. For example, Roth considers 民 (citizen) to be copyist error. (See his note 29 below.) I have no problems accepting this emendation because ‘citizen’ does not make sense when following from the preceding verse about the vital essence of the sage, or leading into the second part of this verse. Linnell’s translation using 'citizen' is clumsy. Dan Reid makes a valiant effort with: “As a result (of essence), the energy-breath of common people (becomes).”  He includes this note: 

 

Quote

The word min, 民 “the people,” is usually suppressed in translations of this line as it appears to read “the qi of the common people is: bright!..” By reading 是故 with its literal meaning of “as a result” rather than simply “therefore,” the following lines appear to describe a transformation of the people’s qi. The conclusion of this passage, “When virtue has ripened, wisdom comes forth, and the myriad things attain fruition,” appears to support such a reading. Further statements such as “when the people attain it, they become fruitful” also suggest an interest in a transformation of “the common people.”

 

All in all, I think accepting 'citizen' as an error is far simpler than making these translation contortions. On the other hand, I think the received text version of line 5 is better than what Roth considers to be the original line. (See Roth's note 31 below.) 

 

 

 

Edited May 23, 2019 by Yueya

[Taoist Texts]

7 hours ago, Yueya said:

Dan Reid makes a valiant effort with: “As a result (of essence), the energy-breath of common people (becomes).” 

good for him

https://ctext.org/pre-qin-and-han/ens?searchu=民氣

[OldDog]

When it comes to interpreting these text, I am out of my element because I do not read or speak Chinese. Still, two things occur to me as I read the above.

 

16 hours ago, Yueya said:

Further statements such as “when the people attain it, they become fruitful” also suggest an interest in a transformation of “the common people.”

 

Here, I would understand the "common people" to mean ...  any person from the set of "common people" as a representative of that group. That is, attainment is potentially available to all.

 

Roth's note:

 

 ...  vital essence is secured through developing the "inner power" that comes from the mental concentration attained through breathing meditation.

 

I take "inner power" to mean de, which I have always understood be more than just concentration. That is, encompassing other qualities as well such as intent, sincerity, etc. ... a broader definition rather than focused on mental concentration.

 

This is how these readings make sense to me.

 

Thoughts?

 

 

Edited May 24, 2019 by OldDog
spelling, grammar and clarification

[dawei]

The lines in question go as:

是 故 民 氣 - therefore / so / consequently * the people / nationality / citizen * Qi
是 故 此 氣 也 therefore / so / consequently * this * Qi * Also

 

Two reasons, so far, I am ok with 民 staying in:

1. As TT points out above, it is not uncommon in ancient china

2. It appears as a character later, four more times.  So he didn't seem to have a problem copying those times.

 

So for me, it reads fine left in, if one does get past a clumsy use of 'citizen' and replaces 是故 with something other than 'therefore'. In the other chapter I mention I might go with, 'in the same way'.  I like what Dan tried with the lines and his is more a cause-effect (as a result).  My phrase them as more a parallel explanation and avoid linearity.

 

One reason I went with this, for now, is that Jing, Qi, Dao, and De will later overlap and almost be synonymous at times. Only later when we get through most of the text will I see if I feel the same. 

 

If this is supposedly a practitioner's practice [method]... the saying 'people' would see appropriate regarding their Qi.

 

As to DE:

 

I think it is used differently here than say how LZ/ZZ use it.   The Neiye seems to treat it as externally attained (like spirit) while I think laozi sees it as an internal property [bestowed by Dao through creation's mechanism].   Even Confucius seems to treat it more like one develops it but that it is inherent to the person like good moral character. 

 

Looking at other early legalists: Shen Dao treats De more matter of fact (The sage has De...) but sounds like moral character.  Hanfeizi commentary on LZ covers a few chapters with De and chapter 38 goes as:  

 

Virtue is internal. Attainment is external. "A person of superior virtue does not seek a reputation for virtue" - this means that his spirit is not obsessed with external things. If the spirit is not obsessed with external things then the self is preserved. He who preserves his self is called 'virtuous,' [as] virtue is the attainment of the true self.  In general, virtue is gathered in by taking no deliberate action, is perfected by having no desires, remains safe if you avoid deliberation, and rests secure it you avoid application. If you act for it and desire it, then virtue will not have a lodging place. If virtue does not have a Iodging place then it cannot be preserved. If you use it and deliberate on it then virtue will not be secure. If it is not secure, then it can have no efficacy. if virtue has no efficacy, then one lives for virtue. [If you live for] virtue you have no virtue, and if you do not [live for] virtue you have virtue. Hence the test says: "The person of superior virtue does not seek a reputation for virtue, and therefore has virtue." - Hagop Sarkissian

 

Curious is mention of a 'lodging place' similar to the Neiye.

[OldDog]

3 hours ago, dawei said:

The Neiye seems to treat it as externally attained (like spirit) while I think laozi sees it as an internal property [bestowed by Dao through creation's mechanism].   Even Confucius seems to treat it more like one develops it but that it is inherent to the person like good moral character.

 

Yeah, this is really problematic for me since intend to believe that these things are inherent ... albeit latent in most individuals ... so that the development process is an internal one. So, setting the right conditions ... sweeping the leaves ... sounds right. But ideas like the Dao arriving seems external.

 

What also seems right is the fleeting nature of the awareness ... It comes and departs.

 

3 hours ago, dawei said:

Only later when we get through most of the text will I see if I feel the same.

 

So, I will also be wanting to see how this develops.

 

 

Edited May 25, 2019 by OldDog
typo

[Bindi]

1 hour ago, OldDog said:

 

Yeah, this is really problematic for me since intend to believe that these things are inherent ... albeit latent in most individuals ... so that the development process is an internal one. So, setting the right conditions ... sweeping the leaves ... sounds right. But ideas like the Dao arriving seems external.

 

What also seems right is the fleeting nature of the awareness ... It comes and departs.

 

 

So, I will also be wanting to see how this develops.

 

 

Is wu wei a later concept or is it implied in the Neiye with 'naturally born, naturally complete' etc? My thinking is that if wu wei is achieved by clearing the heart then De will arrive naturally, so it needn't matter intellectually whether it comes from an external or internal place. It arrives naturally from wherever it was or is. 

 

@dawei, might the De as spirit relate to alchemy's understanding of the spirit (True Yin) as going upwards and having to be reversed and brought back downwards, perhaps into the centre? 

 

Developed De is associated with wisdom and completion, which only comes after the internal conditions are appropriate. 

Edited May 26, 2019 by Bindi

[Limahong]

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

My thinking is that if wu wei is achieved by clearing the heart

 

Hi Bindi,

 

My thinking ~ wu wei... doing nothing...

 

 

 

-Anand

[dawei]

18 hours ago, Bindi said:

Is wu wei a later concept or is it implied in the Neiye? My thinking is that if wu wei is achieved by clearing the heart then De will arrive naturally, so it needn't matter intellectually whether it comes from an external or internal place. It arrives naturally from wherever it was. 

 

@dawei, might the De as spirit relate to alchemy's understanding of the spirit (True Yin) as going upwards and having to be reversed and brought back downwards, perhaps into the centre? 

 

Internal vs external: I think the internal vs external aspect makes a distinction when one reads how it 'arrives' but I'm willing to not press it as that important at this point.  I might only compare to the idea of Man's Qi vs Universal Qi vs Spirit Qi.  To get Spirit Qi is likely not originating in us but it would be an interesting view to consider as it keeps us from playing duality too much with it all. 

 

Wu Wei:

I mentioned in Ch. 1:

rest (an 安) was considered Jing (tranquility) 安：靜也 in the ancient dictionary and may be a pointer to wu-wei concept.

. . .

3. Is Jing (精), vital essence, the key to Jing (靜), tranquility ,  wu-wei ?

 

Shen Dao's Shenzi (another legalist whose work has been linked more to daoism at times) where phrases show up in LZ in an altered form.   Shen Dao talked of Wu Shi (無事), which has much the same meaning as wuwei (無為). 

 

My gut says an argument can be made that the Neiye espouses the later wu wei usage as shown in our section 2:

 

Quote

Linnell:

凡 心 之 形 Always : the form of the heart/mind is
自 充 自 盈 Naturally full, naturally overflowing,
自 生 自 成 Naturally born, naturally complete.
其 所 以 失 之 The reason that you lose it
必 以 憂 樂 喜 怒 欲 利 Is certainly due to worries and happiness, love and anger, desire for profit.
能 去 憂 樂 喜 怒 欲 利 If you can leave behind worries and happiness, love and anger, desire for profit,
心 乃 反 濟 Your heart/mind then returns [to its original nature] successfully.
彼 心 之 情 The nature of that heart/mind
利 安 以 寧 Benefits from calmness and the tranquility that comes from it.
勿 煩 勿 亂 Do not be troubled, do not be confused,
和 乃 自 成 And harmony is then naturally achieved.

 

 

Because of the use of words like naturally, return, calmness, tranquility, not troubled, not confused, harmony... naturally achieved.

 

I think of a paper I read that paired how ziran, here as just zi (naturally) and wuwei are like two sides of a coin.  Where wu wei is behavior and ziran is process.  I think there is a casual link but zi (naturally) can be behavioral like if I say, "act naturally".   But we mean spontaneously, I think, in the daoist sense.    The Neiye being an earlier work, I would give it some flexibility as to how it may be using the same idea. 

 

De and Spirit in Alchemy:

I think its fair and good to ask these questions to see how this early work relates to later usage of the word alchemy.  But we have a pictures of Jing as higher than Qi (and I think will be supported more later) too.  The three seem to me to not have a distinct linear relationship but we're too early in for that to be a fair comment. 

 

But so far, I see Jing as a universal, cosmic substance touching even the formless world... so it is made out to be primordial whereas Qi is first mentioned as with the people.  I know that is a disputed character on some level but to just transition from comic Jing to a universal Qi doesn't make sense to me yet without shifting the cosmos to people:  To move from Heaven to Earth/people.  But it may be the overlap and synonymous aspect I mentioned elsewhere. 

 

It still feels to me like heart management; quiet and calm one's heart-mind and they (dao, spirit, de, etc) will 'come' (borrowing from TT). 

[Bindi]

7 hours ago, dawei said:

 

Internal vs external: I think the internal vs external aspect makes a distinction when one reads how it 'arrives' but I'm willing to not press it as that important at this point.  I might only compare to the idea of Man's Qi vs Universal Qi vs Spirit Qi.  To get Spirit Qi is likely not originating in us but it would be an interesting view to consider as it keeps us from playing duality too much with it all. 

 

Wu Wei:

I mentioned in Ch. 1:

rest (an 安) was considered Jing (tranquility) 安：靜也 in the ancient dictionary and may be a pointer to wu-wei concept.

. . .

3. Is Jing (精), vital essence, the key to Jing (靜), tranquility ,  wu-wei ?

 

Shen Dao's Shenzi (another legalist whose work has been linked more to daoism at times) where phrases show up in LZ in an altered form.   Shen Dao talked of Wu Shi (無事), which has much the same meaning as wuwei (無為). 

 

My gut says an argument can be made that the Neiye espouses the later wu wei usage as shown in our section 3:

 

 

 

Because of the use of words like naturally, return, calmness, tranquility, not troubled, not confused, harmony... naturally achieved.

 

I think of a paper I read that paired how ziran, here as just zi (naturally) and wuwei are like two sides of a coin.  Where wu wei is behavior and ziran is process.  I think there is a casual link but zi (naturally) can be behavioral like if I say, "act naturally".   But we mean spontaneously, I think, in the daoist sense.    The Neiye being an earlier work, I would give it some flexibility as to how to may be using the same idea. 

 

De and Spirit in Alchemy:

I think its fair and good to ask these questions to see how this early work relates to later usage of the word alchemy.  But we have a pictures of Jing as higher than Qi (and I think will be supported more later) too.  The three seem to me to not have a distinct linear relationship but we're too early in for that to be a fair comment. 

 

But so far, I see Jing as a universal, cosmic substance touching even the formless world... so it is made out to be primordial whereas Qi is first mentioned as with the people.  I know that is a disputed character on some level but to just transition from comic Jing to a universal Qi doesn't make sense to me yet without shifting the cosmos to people:  To move from Heaven to Earth/people.  But it may be the overlap and synonymous aspect I mentioned elsewhere. 

 

I think to make sense of the jing's qi's, and shen's is not possible without going ahead. For example towards the end fountain like qi and cloud like qi seem to be differentiated - at this stage I'm inclined to read the Neiye as written by someone trying to distinguish between various states of qi development without a lot of clearly defined historical definitions regarding the differences between jing qi, shen and yuan jing, yuan qi and yuan shen to help them specify clearly which energy they're referring to at any particular time. 

 

Quote

It still feels to me like heart management; quiet and calm one's heart-mind and they (dao, spirit, de, etc) will 'come' (borrowing from TT). 

 

 

Edited May 26, 2019 by Bindi

[Apech]

A couple of questions:

 

1.  Is it possible that qi of the citizens/people just means what we might call human qi - as in qi experienced in people as distinct to the rest of nature?

 

2.  I found this translation of a later section:

 

By essence is meant the essence of qi.

When qi follows the Dao there is birth.

With birth there is awareness.

From awareness comes knowing.

With knowing the limit is reached.

 

Doesn't this resolve the relationship between qi and jing?

 

 

[Limahong]

10 hours ago, dawei said:

Is Jing (精), vital essence, the key to Jing (靜), tranquility ,  wu-wei ?

 

Hi dawei,

 

Maybe...  (精) = > (靜)... wu-wei...

 

 

 = 

 

 

 

       

 

 

- Anand

 

[Taoist Texts]

3 hours ago, Apech said:

1.  Is it possible that qi of the citizens/people just means what we might call human qi - as in qi experienced in people as distinct to the rest of nature?

if by people you mean 'the nation' then yes

[Taoist Texts]

3 hours ago, Apech said:

Doesn't this resolve the relationship between qi and jing?

yes,  jing is the seed from which qi grows in the human body.

[dawei]

2 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

yes,  jing is the seed from which qi grows in the human body.

 

I'm not sure I agree in regards to the Neiye (later this seems to be the picture in alchemy though).

 

If I said De was the [powerful] essence of Dao, that would not suggest De is the seed that Dao grows from.

 

Unless I'm using De in a way you would not in relation to Dao.

[dawei]

~~~ CHANGE TO THE SECTION WAS DONE ~~~

 

Previously I was following Roth's sections (26) but it already began to feel like it breaks up in a separate thread approach where in a book you can just keep reading.   So I am changing to follow Eno's sections (18) which groups a lot more of the text.

 

The opening post of this thread was changed to include what is Eno's section 1 with the title he uses and I'll continue to use his titles.

 

Essentially, I moved the Section 2 translation thread to here.    So now it is a mix of original Section 1 and 2.  Sorry if discussion feels choppy but please re-read the page 1 and see more of the text flow together. 

[Apech]

3 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

if by people you mean 'the nation' then yes

 

in 300 (?) BC your 'nation' was the humans and everyone outside barbarians - or even non-human.

[Taoist Texts]

17 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

in 300 (?) BC your 'nation' was the humans and everyone outside barbarians - or even non-human.

my point exactly)

[Taoist Texts]

1 hour ago, dawei said:

If I said De was the [powerful] essence of Dao, that would not suggest De is the seed that Dao grows from.

yes it would not because essence etymologically is not connected to seed

Quote

late Middle English: via Old French from Latin essentia, from esse ‘be’.

jing is different. it is literally seed. Apech's quote says 

By essence is meant the essence of qi.

When qi follows the Dao there is birth.

 

which is a naive translation. in fact the quote says 精也者this seed，气之精者也 is the seed of qi。气道the duct of qi乃 from it 生grows

 

There is no dao in this quote, instead there is the duct or channel of qi, an archaic anatomical term used in Huangdi neijing.

https://ctext.org/pre-qin-and-han/ens?searchu=气道