Neiye - Section 1 - The Essential Qi

[dawei]

46 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

yes it would not because essence etymologically is not connected to seed

jing is different. it is literally seed. Apech's quote says 

By essence is meant the essence of qi.

When qi follows the Dao there is birth.

 

which is a naive translation. in fact the quote says 精也者this seed，气之精者也 is the seed of qi。气道the duct of qi乃 from it 生grows

 

There is no dao in this quote, instead there is the duct or channel of qi, an archaic anatomical term used in Huangdi neijing.

https://ctext.org/pre-qin-and-han/ens?searchu=气道

 

 

Just to make the above clear... here is the text:

精 也 者 This essence –
氣 之 精 者 也 Is essence of Qi!
氣 道 乃 生 With Qi and Dao, then there is life;

 

TT's point is that while there may be a singular character for what we typically call Dao (道), he takes it as a compound with Qi (氣道)  and thus calls that 'duct of Qi'.  

 

This is in Eno's section 4.   I'm going to get sections 3 and 4 setup so we can read up to this as it is been raised a few times.    

[dawei]

54 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

yes it would not because essence etymologically is not connected to seed

jing is different. it is literally seed.

 

 

I don't think that the Neiye had the Late Middle English Dictionary... and what we want to see is how the Neiye is defining Jing.  I'm not ready to call it a seed.  

[Taoist Texts]

3 hours ago, dawei said:

what we want to see is how the Neiye is defining Jing. 

Despite jing being first thing mentioned, it occurs in NY 12 times only. It might be an important concept there but not redundantly defined.

3 hours ago, dawei said:

 

I'm not ready to call it a seed.  

i agree that a seed is a bit of a stretch. luckily there is a text that explicitly defines jing in relation to qi. its the same with the qi duct: the Huangdi neijing

《阴阳应象大论》

which says 

味归形，形归气，气归精，精归化，精食气，形食味，化生精，气生形。味伤形，气伤精，精化为气，气伤于味。

精jing 化transforms为  to become 气 qi，

 

 

 

[Apech]

I suspect that it is saying that jing is a potential (energy) and qi is the active (energy).

 

Going back to the first stanza it talks about the ranks or patterns of stars above - and the five grains below.  I think this is significant.  Obviously grains are seeds - but more importantly they are the potential for growth of the plants - the basis for agriculture.

Star patterns are usually about the regular (eternal) cycles - or you could say eternal form which creates the blueprint for the way in which actual events work out in life -  the seasons, the lunar cycles perhaps, the year, the days, months and so on - particularly the agricultural year.

 

Just thinking out loud.

[dawei]

17 hours ago, Apech said:

I suspect that it is saying that jing is a potential (energy) and qi is the active (energy).

 

Going back to the first stanza it talks about the ranks or patterns of stars above - and the five grains below.  I think this is significant.  Obviously grains are seeds - but more importantly they are the potential for growth of the plants - the basis for agriculture.

Star patterns are usually about the regular (eternal) cycles - or you could say eternal form which creates the blueprint for the way in which actual events work out in life -  the seasons, the lunar cycles perhaps, the year, the days, months and so on - particularly the agricultural year.

 

Just thinking out loud.

 

and how to fit in Ghosts and Spirits ?

 

流 於 天 地 之 間 When it flows in the space between heaven and earth
謂 之 鬼 神 We call them ghosts and spirits.

 

I likely prefer, flowing amid/among heaven and earth.   Flowing in the space between seems to just suggest this, so why not make it clearer. 

 

That's why I previously said that Jing comes across to me, in the opening, as somewhat cosmic.  It covers forms and formless.  It would seem we need a unified theory in a way to cover everything mentioned.   I would not be against the idea that on a physical, form level, it is like a seed... I'm just not yet at the point of the unified explanation of Jings role with form and formless.

 

I looked at DDJ5 where 天 地 之 間 is also used.  Heshang Gong says, "The space between heaven and earth is empty and void, with one gentle energy flowing throughout" while Wang Bi says, "In the vast and empty space of Heaven and earth, all is left alone to nature." (Tr. R. Bertschinger).

 

So these three (LZ, HSG, WB) don't suggest anything about ghosts/spirits.

 

But from a cosmological POV, I am also trying to see how this should be understood... so I looked at my thread on cosmology (https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/32324-cosmology-in-ancient-chinese-text/) and had posted this:

 

Quote

In the Han Book of Divination, Gu San Fen

 There are six "Great" stages:
Great Beginning (太始) - One as singularity in non-existence
Great Supreme (太極) - One undifferentiated [energy] but ready to split
Great Change (太易) - The split [of energy] occurs
Great Origin (太初) - Heaven and Earth arise
Great Materialization (太素) - Transformation complete; spirits and life arises
Great Antiquity (太古) - Life forms consider this their beginning

 Liezi appears to be the origin of these stages and also mentions:

When substance, form and essential qualities are still indistinguishably blended together it is called Chaos. Chaos means that all things are chaotically intermixed and not yet separated from one another. The purer and lighter elements, tending upwards, made the Heavens; the grosser and heavier elements, tending downwards, made the Earth. Substance, harmoniously proportioned, became Man; and, Heaven and Earth containing thus a spiritual element, all things were evolved and produced.' -- Giles

 

 

For now, that satisfies me regarding Neiye line on ghosts/spirits as having some basis and not altogether a misplaced idea, even if LZ doesn't really share it.  

 

[Apech]

6 hours ago, dawei said:

 

and how to fit in Ghosts and Spirits ?

 

流 於 天 地 之 間 When it flows in the space between heaven and earth
謂 之 鬼 神 We call them ghosts and spirits.

 

I likely prefer, flowing amid/among heaven and earth.   Flowing in the space between seems to just suggest this, so why not make it clearer. 

...

 

 

yes. Ghosts and Spirits does imply intelligences - one translation give 'spirits' as the numinous.  So I was thinking it is referring to ghosts = ancestor spirits and spirits = deities.  This in the space between heaven and Earth where you would expect to find men - or perhaps the 10,000 things.

 

It is universalising jing but specifically relating it to star patterns (constellations), grains, spirits/ghosts - I think this is the key to understanding it.  For instance why star patterns and not just stars?  why grains and not trees/animals etc and why ghost/spirits and not humans for instance?  It is not simply grading existence into three realms it is pointing to the essence bringing order in the sky, growth potential on earth and intelligent entities in between.

 

You are right it seems much more universalised than the jing = generative force = condensed qi stored in kidneys of TCM and Neidan.  But then the linear jing-qi-shen of Internal Alchemy was always a bit misleading and probably never taken to be a defining order or ontological relationship but more a praxis for transformation (if that makes sense).

 

 

[OldDog]

11 hours ago, dawei said:

and how to fit in Ghosts and Spirits ?

 

流 於 天 地 之 間 When it flows in the space between heaven and earth
謂 之 鬼 神 We call them ghosts and spirits.

 

I had to go back and re-read this last night.

 

I think the tendency is to fixate on ghosts and spirits as entities. This misses the point of the section.

 

As I read it, it is talking about the injection of the creative ... generative, per Apech ... force into the manifest world. Without it, the manifest world is just full of things ... no dynamics ... dead. This creative essence is called by many names according to where it is found ... between heaven and earth ... in the chests/hearts of beings. It is all pervasive, universal and, yes, unifying.

 

 

[dawei]

10 hours ago, Apech said:

yes. Ghosts and Spirits does imply intelligences - one translation give 'spirits' as the numinous.  So I was thinking it is referring to ghosts = ancestor spirits and spirits = deities.  This in the space between heaven and Earth where you would expect to find men - or perhaps the 10,000 things.

 

Ghosts:  I'm often unsure of how to take the meaning... so decided to look at Puett (publications here) , particularly COMBINING THE GHOSTS AND SPIRITS, CENTERINGTHE REALM where he quotes Confucius that I've read before and his opening words sound like something out of the Neiye.

 

Zai Wo said: “I have heard the names ‘ghosts’ and ‘spirits’, but I do not know what they mean.”
The Master said: “Qi is the flourishing of spirit; the earthly soul ( po) is the flourishing of the ghost. Combining the ghost and the spirit is the highest teaching.”

 

I used to think in terms of Spirits were created before space-mass... so not sure whether that holds merit as 'between heaven and earth' which could be a reference to the invisible realm, but not sure of its general use in ancient times.  I am sure some use it to mean the 10,000 things... though in which case I think ghosts and spirits have to be included. 

 

Quote

It is universalising jing but specifically relating it to star patterns (constellations), grains, spirits/ghosts - I think this is the key to understanding it.  For instance why star patterns and not just stars?  why grains and not trees/animals etc and why ghost/spirits and not humans for instance?  It is not simply grading existence into three realms it is pointing to the essence bringing order in the sky, growth potential on earth and intelligent entities in between.

 

Star patterns may be their arrangement; their resulting generative ordering...  so you say not simply grading into three realms but then mention them (sky, earth, inbetween); but you're wanting to focus on, respectively:  Order, Growth, Intelligence.   

 

He does mention the Sage at the end of this opening.. but it leads me to another idea in order to preserve your idea.

 

Quote

You are right it seems much more universalised than the jing = generative force = condensed qi stored in kidneys of TCM and Neidan.  But then the linear jing-qi-shen of Internal Alchemy was always a bit misleading and probably never taken to be a defining order or ontological relationship but more a praxis for transformation (if that makes sense).

 

 

I wonder if the opening break should be after Ghosts/Spirits as below which might help to resolve whether Ren (citizen, people) should be there, as that would tie to the previous line using Sage:

 

凡 物 之 精 Always : the essence [Jing] of creatures –
此 則 為 生 This then makes them live.
下 生 五 穀 Below, it gives birth to the five grains;
上 為 列 星 Above, it acts to arrange the stars.
流 於 天 地 之 間 When it flows in the space between heaven and earth
謂 之 鬼 神 We call them ghosts and spirits.
 

藏 於 胸 中 When it collects in the center of the breast of people,
謂 之 聖 人 We call them sages.

是 故 民 氣 Thus the Qi of the citizens :
杲 乎 Is it bright?
如 登 於 天 As though ascending to heaven.
杳 乎 Is it dark and quiet?
如 入 於 淵 As though entering into an abyss.
綽 乎 Is it wide and spacious?
如 在 於 海 As though residing in the ocean.
卒 乎 Is it close?
如 在 於 己 As though residing in oneself.

 

[dawei]

5 hours ago, OldDog said:

 

I had to go back and re-read this last night.

 

I think the tendency is to fixate on ghosts and spirits as entities. This misses the point of the section.

 

As I read it, it is talking about the injection of the creative ... generative, per Apech ... force into the manifest world. Without it, the manifest world is just full of things ... no dynamics ... dead. This creative essence is called by many names according to where it is found ... between heaven and earth ... in the chests/hearts of beings. It is all pervasive, universal and, yes, unifying.

 

 

 

I think it is not about fixation but we can't ignore its presence... what is being mentioned of Jing has to work in each case meaningfully.  It may not be a realm thing: although it clearly denotes realms, it doesn't have to be the focus.   We can take it meaningfully but don't have to literally.  

 

For example, even if there were 5 realms mentioned... I'd still be looking to see how Jing unifies as to its function.  It may be more like one item unique to each (which I think is somewhat of Apech's point).  Or like can we say, there is order, growth, intelligence in all three?  That seems like I'm stretching his point but just showing the lens I'm trying to work through at first.  That we get a parallel treatment but I may need to ultimately abandon it.   LZ goes through a list of things that really treats each with an attribute. 

[Apech]

6 minutes ago, dawei said:

 

Ghosts:  I'm often unsure of how to take the meaning... so decided to look at Puett (publications here) , particularly COMBINING THE GHOSTS AND SPIRITS, CENTERINGTHE REALM where he quotes Confucius that I've read before and his opening words sound like something out of the Neiye.

 

Zai Wo said: “I have heard the names ‘ghosts’ and ‘spirits’, but I do not know what they mean.”
The Master said: “Qi is the flourishing of spirit; the earthly soul ( po) is the flourishing of the ghost. Combining the ghost and the spirit is the highest teaching.”

 

I used to think in terms of Spirits were created before space-mass... so not sure whether that holds merit as 'between heaven and earth' which could be a reference to the invisible realm, but not sure of its general use in ancient times.  I am sure some use it to mean the 10,000 things... though in which case I think ghosts and spirits have to be included. 

 

 

Star patterns may be their arrangement; their resulting generative ordering...  so you say not simply grading into three realms but then mention them (sky, earth, inbetween); but you're wanting to focus on, respectively:  Order, Growth, Intelligence.   

 

He does mention the Sage at the end of this opening.. but it leads me to another idea in order to preserve your idea.

 

 

 

I wonder if the opening break should be after Ghosts/Spirits as below which might help to resolve whether Ren (citizen, people) should be there, as that would tie to the previous line using Sage:

 

凡 物 之 精 Always : the essence [Jing] of creatures –
此 則 為 生 This then makes them live.
下 生 五 穀 Below, it gives birth to the five grains;
上 為 列 星 Above, it acts to arrange the stars.
流 於 天 地 之 間 When it flows in the space between heaven and earth
謂 之 鬼 神 We call them ghosts and spirits.
 

藏 於 胸 中 When it collects in the center of the breast of people,
謂 之 聖 人 We call them sages.

是 故 民 氣 Thus the Qi of the citizens :
杲 乎 Is it bright?
如 登 於 天 As though ascending to heaven.
杳 乎 Is it dark and quiet?
如 入 於 淵 As though entering into an abyss.
綽 乎 Is it wide and spacious?
如 在 於 海 As though residing in the ocean.
卒 乎 Is it close?
如 在 於 己 As though residing in oneself.

 

 

 

So ghosts and spirits might be hun and po?  Which could make sense - especially as it specifically talks about the 'flow' - so earth directed and heaven directed.

 

I prefer the standard line break because that gives a four fold - above, below, flowing, gathering - which is quite a nice pattern.

[dawei]

8 minutes ago, Apech said:

So ghosts and spirits might be hun and po?  Which could make sense - especially as it specifically talks about the 'flow' - so earth directed and heaven directed.

 

I prefer the standard line break because that gives a four fold - above, below, flowing, gathering - which is quite a nice pattern.

 

This is from Zuozhuan around 500 BC (so predates Neiye):

When a man is born, (we see) in his first movements what is called the [魄] animal soul. [既生魄] After this has been produced, it is developed into what is called the [魂] spirit. By the use of things the subtle elements are multiplied, and the [魂魄] soul and spirit become strong. They go on in this way, growing in etherealness and brightness, till they become (thoroughly) spiritual and intelligent. 

 

I think the simple explanation is Hun leaves the body for heaven while the Po does not.

 

An interesting take from this quote related to the Neiye is the development from the animal soul [Po] to a spirit [Hun].   I think we'll get to later sections that seem to suggest 'self-divination' [Puett's word when quoting Neiye sections of becoming spirit-like].

 

Ok, you like the four together, which I might write as:

Below: Birthing [Grains]

Above: Ordering [Stars]

In-between: Flowing [Ghosts/Spirits]

Sage: Gathering / Collecting 

 

So maybe the four are as well:  Birthing, Ordering, Flowing, Gathering

[Bindi]

There is reference to ghosts and spirits later in the Neiye, maybe it's relevant in sorting out the meaning in section one:

 

. 思 之 而 不 通 Should you contemplate it yet not comprehend it, 鬼 神 將 通 之 Know that ghosts and spirits can comprehend it. 非 鬼 神 之 力 也 However, it is not comprehended by the power of ghosts and spirits – 精 氣 之 極 也 But by the utmost of essence’s Qi!

[Bindi]

5 hours ago, dawei said:

 

This is from Zuozhuan around 500 BC (so predates Neiye):

When a man is born, (we see) in his first movements what is called the [魄] animal soul. [既生魄] After this has been produced, it is developed into what is called the [魂] spirit. By the use of things the subtle elements are multiplied, and the [魂魄] soul and spirit become strong. They go on in this way, growing in etherealness and brightness, till they become (thoroughly) spiritual and intelligent. 

 

I think the simple explanation is Hun leaves the body for heaven while the Po does not.

 

An interesting take from this quote related to the Neiye is the development from the animal soul [Po] to a spirit [Hun].   

 

If the Daoist take on the Hun and Po souls is that the Hun tends to leave the body for heaven and the Po tends to descend into the earth and be wasted, and that combining them is the highest teaching (according to Zai Wo from your quote above, and also the Neidan perspective), it would be a big break if the Neiye sees development as from the animal soul [Po] to a spirit [Hun]. 

 

5 hours ago, dawei said:

 

I think we'll get to later sections that seem to suggest 'self-divination' [Puett's word when quoting Neiye sections of becoming spirit-like].

 

Ok, you like the four together, which I might write as:

Below: Birthing [Grains]

Above: Ordering [Stars]

In-between: Flowing [Ghosts/Spirits]

Sage: Gathering / Collecting 

 

So maybe the four are as well:  Birthing, Ordering, Flowing, Gathering

 

[dawei]

21 minutes ago, Bindi said:

There is reference to ghosts and spirits later in the Neiye, maybe it's relevant in sorting out the meaning in section one:

 

. 思 之 而 不 通 Should you contemplate it yet not comprehend it, 鬼 神 將 通 之 Know that ghosts and spirits can comprehend it. 非 鬼 神 之 力 也 However, it is not comprehended by the power of ghosts and spirits – 精 氣 之 極 也 But by the utmost of essence’s Qi!

 

I meant to mention this and forgot.  thanks

 

That sub-section is about 'consolidating Qi like spirits' (Roth #19; Eno #13) and they can comprehend due to essence's Qi (translations vary).

 

The tie I see is to a section already mentioned a few times but is in #4 when talking about the Sage:

精 也 者 This essence [Jing] –
氣 之 精 者 也 Is essence [Jing] of Qi!

 

It gets repeated, slightly differently for sages, but seems to suggest they both rely on this. 

[dawei]

3 minutes ago, Bindi said:

 

If the Daoist take on the Hun and Po souls is that the Hun tends to leave the body for heaven and the Po tends to descend into the earth and be wasted, and that combining them is the highest teaching (according to Zai Wo from your quote above, and also the Neidan perspective), it would be a big break if the Neiye sees development as from the animal soul [Po] to a spirit [Hun]. 

 

I want to turn to Puett reading to get some more gist of the Po descending cuz he talks about the sacrifices to make the earth bound soul become an ancestor... meaning, that is a way an ancestor is a ghost and it's unclear to me, based on limited Puett reading, whether they must have this sacrificial aspect occur.  So not wasted in a sense... but waiting for an ancestor to be joined to (?).

 

the Neiye sees development as from the animal soul [Po] to a spirit [Hun]:

In my previous post I mentioned in response to you, 'consolidating Qi like Spirits' and there will be many references to "spirit-like"... what Puett calls 'self-divination' as one is raising itself to be a spirit; and the Neiye appears like the spirit is something to be gathered in (from the outside).

 

I don't want to make Puett the authority on this but he has written the most on spirits and I previously gave his publication area. 

 

There seem so many arcs going on, in a way to settle. 

 

[Bindi]

2 minutes ago, dawei said:

 

I want to turn to Puett reading to get some more gist of the Po descending cuz he talks about the sacrifices to make the earth bound soul become an ancestor... meaning, that is a way an ancestor is a ghost and it's unclear to me, based on limited Puett reading, whether they must have this sacrificial aspect occur.  So not wasted in a sense... but waiting for an ancestor to be joined to (?).

 

the Neiye sees development as from the animal soul [Po] to a spirit [Hun]:

In my previous post I mentioned in response to you, 'consolidating Qi like Spirits' and there will be many references to "spirit-like"... what Puett calls 'self-divination' as one is raising itself to be a spirit; and the Neiye appears like the spirit is something to be gathered in (from the outside).

 

Just referring to the Hun soul and "the Neiye appears like the spirit is something to be gathered in (from the outside)," is it possible to understand this as the Hun leaves the body for heaven (while we are still alive) and the Hun needs to be brought back down into the body? 

 

2 minutes ago, dawei said:

I don't want to make Puett the authority on this but he has written the most on spirits and I previously gave his publication area. 

 

There seem so many arcs going on, in a way to settle. 

 

 

[dawei]

7 minutes ago, Bindi said:

 

Just referring to the Hun soul and "the Neiye appears like the spirit is something to be gathered in (from the outside)," is it possible to understand this as the Hun leaves the body for heaven (while we are still alive) and the Hun needs to be brought back down into the body? 

 

 

 

There are lines [Eno #7: Roth # 13) of the spirit coming and going but [Linnell] mentions it as understanding. 

有 神 自 在 身 There exists a spirit[-like understanding] naturally located in the self –
一 往 一 來 One moment it goes, one moment it arrives;
莫 之 能 思 There is no one who can contemplate it.
失 之 必 亂 Lose it and you will certainly be confused,
得 之 必 治 Attain it and you will certainly be regulated.

 

Hard to know yet what Linnell means... did he think this means you cannot really lose the spirit and just lose spirit-like understanding?  

 

The general understanding of Hun stays till dead... but one has to also realize HunPo is 3 Hun and Po is 7.   So easy to get in the weeds on this.  Maybe see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hun_and_po

[dawei]

15 minutes ago, Wuschel said:

 

i think it is just saying all things on earth, in cosmos and other dimensions share this essence

 

Exactly... which makes it sound more like a power side of Dao... a cosmic kind of Qi or De ?  But it doesn't sound like the Jing we are used to hearing about in Alchemy. 

[Bindi]

1 hour ago, dawei said:

 

There are lines [Eno #7: Roth # 13) of the spirit coming and going but [Linnell] mentions it as understanding. 

有 神 自 在 身 There exists a spirit[-like understanding] naturally located in the self –
一 往 一 來 One moment it goes, one moment it arrives;
莫 之 能 思 There is no one who can contemplate it.
失 之 必 亂 Lose it and you will certainly be confused,
得 之 必 治 Attain it and you will certainly be regulated.

 

Hard to know yet what Linnell means... did he think this means you cannot really lose the spirit and just lose spirit-like understanding?  

 

The general understanding of Hun stays till dead... but one has to also realize HunPo is 3 Hun and Po is 7.   So easy to get in the weeds on this.  Maybe see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hun_and_po

 

This is a neidan understanding of Hun and Po from the commentary on Awakening to Reality, can you say with certainty that this perspective is not present in the Neiye? It does seem to me to offer a way of making sense of the 'spirit' as being something that is gathered in from outside.  

 

Quote

 

The earthly Po soul is True Yang found within Yin; it is the precelestial Original Essence of which the physical body is a Yin manifestation. Analogously, the celestial hun-soul is True Yin found within Yang; it is the precelestial Original Spirit of which the thinking mind is a Yang manifestation.

...

In the postcelestial world, the Yang principle tends to rise to Heaven and vanish above, causing the loss of True Yin; the Yin principle tends to descend into the Earth and be wasted below, causing the loss of True Yang.

 

 

 

[OldDog]

1 hour ago, Wuschel said:

i think it is just saying all things on earth, in cosmos and other dimensions share this essence.

 

This is the way I read the Neiye. The essence is everywhere and when we see it we interpret it in the context where it appears thinking it is something different but it isn't.

 

1 hour ago, dawei said:

There exists a spirit[-like understanding] naturally located in the self –

One moment it goes, one moment it arrives;
There is no one who can contemplate it.

Lose it and you will certainly be confused,
Attain it and you will certainly be regulated.

 

I like this reading. It says to me that the essence is always within naturally. That our understading ... our awareness ... of it comes and goes but it is always naturally present. When we lose touch with it we become confused. When we re-establish touch with it we become well regulated.

 

It may not be possible to remain permanently in touch but there is nothing preventing us in our practice from periodically re-experiencing the awareness and the rememberance of those experiences can guide us in our actions.

 

1 hour ago, dawei said:

But it doesn't sound like the Jing we are used to hearing about in Alchemy.

 

Maybe it isn't. There seems to be a strong tendency to want to understand the Neiye from the perspective of the later developed alchemy. But if this is really an early foundational text, such perspective may not necessarily be appropriate or even useful in understanding what the Neiye is trying to say.

 

Just thinking out loud.

[Bindi]

1 hour ago, OldDog said:

 

This is the way I read the Neiye. The essence is everywhere and when we see it we interpret it in the context where it appears thinking it is something different but it isn't.

 

 

I like this reading. It says to me that the essence is always within naturally. That our understading ... our awareness ... of it comes and goes but it is always naturally present. When we lose touch with it we become confused. When we re-establish touch with it we become well regulated.

 

It may not be possible to remain permanently in touch but there is nothing preventing us in our practice from periodically re-experiencing the awareness and the rememberance of those experiences can guide us in our actions.

 

 

Maybe it isn't. There seems to be a strong tendency to want to understand the Neiye from the perspective of the later developed alchemy. But if this is really an early foundational text, such perspective may not necessarily be appropriate or even useful in understanding what the Neiye is trying to say.

 

Just thinking out loud.

 

It is only me promoting the neidan agenda, but I do so because I think it is relevant, not because I see neidan in every random Daoist sentence. 

 

Something like  "When qi is guided, vital essence [Jing] is generated" in section 4 is a very neidan way of looking at jing, at least I will think so until the error of my perspective is pointed out to me. 

 

In your perspective you prefer the concept that 'spirit' is already present within, though dawei speaks of the Neiye as having the sense that spirit is something to be gathered in from the outside. You in your turn are just turning a blind eye to what the Neiye itself may be saying, by preferring your preconceived notion. That or dawei has misinterpreted the Neiye on this point, there are many possibilities. 

 

 

Edited May 28, 2019 by Bindi

[OldDog]

@Bindi and @dawei

 

I apologize for pressing a point of view too far. Clearly, I have overstepped the mark. If I have offended, then I am truly sorry. I value both of your inputs and leadership. I will dial it back some.

 

 

[Taoist Texts]

1 hour ago, OldDog said:

Clearly, I have overstepped the mark

what? where? not clear at all

[dawei]

11 hours ago, Bindi said:

This is a neidan understanding of Hun and Po from the commentary on Awakening to Reality, can you say with certainty that this perspective is not present in the Neiye? It does seem to me to offer a way of making sense of the 'spirit' as being something that is gathered in from outside.  

  Quote

The earthly Po soul is True Yang found within Yin; it is the precelestial Original Essence of which the physical body is a Yin manifestation. Analogously, the celestial hun-soul is True Yin found within Yang; it is the precelestial Original Spirit of which the thinking mind is a Yang manifestation.

...

In the postcelestial world, the Yang principle tends to rise to Heaven and vanish above, causing the loss of True Yin; the Yin principle tends to descend into the Earth and be wasted below, causing the loss of True Yang.

That's an interesting question.   As commentators have noted, Yin/Ying is not in the Neiye [nor Hun/Po].   I don't know I'll answer this but getting my thoughts straight so as we move forward, we can see about it.   

 

That Po is called "precelestial Original Essence" (I assume this is Jing?) seems to say that the physical [yin] body that the Po Soul resides in is based on the Original Essence.  I don't take that as exclusive.  Meaning they don't mention [here] whether the cosmos also is based on it as the Neiye does.  But using the words "precelestial Original Essence", it sounds like the cosmic Jing I have been sensing. 

 

That Hun is contrasted as "precelestial Original Spirit" (I assume this is Shen?), makes this all seem to fit rather well between the pairs (Jing vs Shen; Po vs Hun).

 

An issue I see is: If the quote supports an idea of Neiye early text usage of Spirit as gathered in from outside, then the quote would also support an idea that so is Jing.  So it makes me want to look at a few Jing sentences:

 

可 以 為 精 舍 You are able to become a dwelling for essence.

精 將 自 來 And essence will naturally arrive.
精 將 至 定 Essence will arrive and settle.

精 存 自 生 Where essence exists, there is naturally life

天 出 其 精 Heaven produces their essence,

 

So the word usage seems to suggest Jing is also acquired.

 

I'll note here, that my idea that Spirit is externally acquired comes from Kirkland.  I think this is a summary of his points:

 

According to the Nei Yeh,

the practitioner must align his/her biospiritual nexus with the unseen forces of the world in order to attract "spirit" and receive it into one's quietened "heart/mind."  One's ability to succeed in this endeavor is called te. Te has often been dubbed a key concept in "philosophical Taoism," but the meaning of the term in the Nei Yeh hardly resembles any of the common descriptions of the term as it is used in the more familiar Taoist texts. In the Nei Yeh, the term te does retain the generic meaning of "the inner moral power of an individual," and even the archaic (Shang-dynasty) concept of te as "a proper disposition toward the unseen forces."  But here, te is clearly not a force that is intrinsic to our natures, as many modern descriptions of Te in "philosophical Taoism" would have us believe. Rather, te, like "spirit," is something that we acquire when all elements of the body/heart/mind are completely peaceful and properly aligned. Here we can discern the full meaning of the traditional Chinese explanation that the word te meaning "inner power" may be understood in terms of the homophone te which is the common verb in both classical and modern Chinese for getting or acquiring. In the Nei Yeh, te may be termed "the acquisitional agency," for it is not just what we attract and receive, but that whereby we attract and receive the higher forces of life (e.g., ch'i and shen). What is more, in the Nei Yeh one is told that one's te is something that one must work on each and every day. (Once again, such teachings vary widely from the concept of what Te means in common notions of "philosophical Taoism.")

 

The teachings of the Nei Yeh are quite distinct from the ideas that most non-specialists associate with "philosophical Taoism." Its teachings will sound more familiar to people acquainted with the traditions of modern Taoism that focus on the cultivation of ch'i. The Nei Yeh indeed begins with the assumption of a powerful salubrious reality called ch'i, "life-energy."  In the Nei Yeh,

ch'i is present both within all things and all around them. Within each being, ch'i is centered in the "essence," ching — which Roth describes as "the source of the vital energy in human beings [and] the basis of our health, vitality, and psychological well-being."  But the central focus of the Nei Yeh's teachings have to do more with how the individual manages his/her hsin, the "heart/mind."  The "heart/mind" is the ruling agency in the individual's biospiritual nexus, i.e., in the entire personal complex of body/mind/heart/spirit). The Nei Yeh's principal teaching is that one should make sure that one's "heart/mind" is balanced and tranquil, without excessive cogitation or emotion. If one can maintain a tranquil "heart/mind," then one will become a receptor of life's salubrious energies, and will be able to retain them; without tranquility, those healthful energies will leave, and one's health, and very life, will become threatened.

 

... it should be noticed that the portrait of the Taoist life in the Nei Yeh is in some ways quite dissimilar to that which we generally encounter in the Tao te ching and Chuang-tzu. 

For instance, the key to life in the Nei Yeh is one's diligent effort to attract and retain spiritual forces named ch'i, ching and shen. While each of those terms does occur here and there in both the Tao te ching and the Chuang-tzu, seldom in those texts do we find the specific teachings that are so basic to the Nei Yeh.  In particular, it is hard to think of passages from either of the more familiar texts that suggest that the thing called tao is a force that can come into or go out of a person, or that one it is necessary to engage in specific practices to get the tao to come or to keep it from going away.  In the more familiar texts, the term tao generally seems to suggest a universal reality from which one can never really be ontologically separated.

So Kirkland suggests Jing, Qi, Shen, De, and Dao as coming and going, thus externally gathered.   

 

I may be reading too much Kirkland

 

[dawei]

2 hours ago, OldDog said:

@Bindi and @dawei

 

I apologize for pressing a point of view too far. Clearly, I have overstepped the mark. If I have offended, then I am truly sorry. I value both of your inputs and leadership. I will dial it back some.

 

It's all good.  I likely didn't share some motivation for doing the study in my Intro Thread and that's my bad.  Bindi and I had been talking about doing a study on it to understand how it compares and potential influence later Inner Alchemy.   

 

I don't think everyone has to look at it from that angle.  Folks should participate with their own motivations, but I can see how we may not understand another's.  As I know Bindi's, I sometimes fall into some pedantic exchange as she knows (and seems TT and Apech) more about later Alchemy practices and I tend to focus on the earliest texts practices.   The Neiye clearly seems to be something different from other early practices, be them breathing focused or visualization of spirits. 

 

At first, the only thing I was trying to hold back on was talking about later sections when we have not gotten there yet, but I've already seen several times, its impossible (and likely not fair) to suppress that.  So I've now done what I said we shouldn't do

 

In any case, lets all keep sharing our thoughts and have enjoyed yours too