Neiye - Section 1 - The Essential Qi

[dawei]

19 hours ago, vonkrankenhaus said:

This isn't cultivated. Just describe. Not talking about cultivating at this point.

 

I agree so far based on the text but that section you quoted as talking about Jing, not Qi.  What will get complicated is they all have so much overlap (Jing, Qi, Shen, Dao, De) in this text that it may be hard to know what is really meant.  

 

I like the picture of the character as I previously mentioned... hiding under the grass.  It may be more a realization than poking its head out of the grass, as the latter might suggest it was doing nothing in its hidden state which would seem wrong based on how vital it is presented [so far].

[Limahong]

23 minutes ago, Apech said:

That's partly true and I see where you're coming from but actually if you respect the text and listen properly you get a lot more than intellectual understanding.  You could say you get contact with the sage who wrote it.

 

Hi Apech,

 

Profound.

 

You listen with your heart...?

 

 

- Anand

 

[Apech]

25 minutes ago, dawei said:

 

I agree so far based on the text but that section you quoted as talking about Jing, not Qi.  What will get complicated is they all have so much overlap (Jing, Qi, Shen, Dao, De) in this text that it may be hard to know what is really meant.  

 

I like the picture of the character as I previously mentioned... hiding under the grass.  It may be more a realization than poking its head out of the grass, as the latter might suggest it was doing nothing in its hidden state which would seem wrong based on how vital it is presented [so far].

 

By essence is meant the essence of qi.

When qi follows the Dao there is birth.

With birth there is awareness.

From awareness comes knowing.

With knowing the limit is reached.

Edited May 13, 2019 by Apech

[Limahong]

18 minutes ago, Apech said:

With knowing the limit is reached.

 

Hi Apech,

 

Without knowing the best is yet to be ~ wu-wei-lessly?

 

- Anand

[Limahong]

53 minutes ago, dawei said:

What will get complicated is they all have so much overlap (Jing, Qi, Shen, Dao, De) in this text that it may be hard to know what is really meant.

 

Hi dawei,

 

Everything is ONE.

 

- Anand

[Geof Nanto]

1 hour ago, Apech said:

 

 

That's partly true and I see where you're coming from but actually if you respect the text and listen properly you get a lot more than intellectual understanding.  You could say you get contact with the sage who wrote it.

 

 

 

Yes, I agree. As Limahong has said, that’s called listening with the heart. But I don’t see that much happening here with the Neiye discussion so far. People are mostly talking in terms of systems and concepts that postdate the text. They’re finding in the Neiye confirmation of what they already know. And that’s understandable. It’s the only way to orientate oneself to something new. We all do it.  And these fast paced DaoBums discussions exacerbate the tendency.   Listening with heart happens in its own way and in its own time. And it’s best achieved with the type of calm xin the Neiye speaks of.  Otherwise all we tend to find is echoes of our own emotional imbalances and intellectual biases. 

[vonkrankenhaus]

1 hour ago, dawei said:

talking about Jing, not Qi

 

Jing is "Essence", yes.

 

Essence is polarities and potentials, inherited and acquired.

 

This is the basis of Qi.

 

Qi is just movement between the poles of polarities.

 

"Essence" in the human is polarities and potentials, inherited and acquired.

 

Polarities and potentials of Heaven and Earth contain the Human, so are beyond full Human comprehension.

 

But inside the Human are functioning the same kind of polarities and potentials.

 

This is the way people know Heaven and Earth ("Sages").

 

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[Bindi]

 

"According to the earliest comprehensive dictionary of Chinese characters (ca. 100 CE), Xu Shen’s Shuowen jiezi (Explaining Single-component Graphs and Analyzing Compound Characters), yin refers to “a closed door, darkness and the south bank of a river and the north side of a mountain.” Yang refers to “height, brightness and the south side of a mountain.” 

 

I find this interesting given that the first two verses refer to 'bright' and 'dark.' Further associating Heaven with yang and its opposite 'abyss' with yin is also valid IMO. I cannot help but wonder if these are early precursors to the more refined yin/yang notion of later times.  

 

'而 可 迎 以 意 ...can be made welcome by using your intent' can help clarify the question in the first verse about whether vital essence arrives on its own or if intention is used. We can use the inner power we do have to calm the jing (which is now referred to as qi?) that exists in everyone and everything, and then use intention to establish the conditions in which jing will come to 'rest'. These conditions are referred to later, so I won't refer to them here. 

 

When this qi is maintained/held onto/nurtured/guarded and never lost or let go of (I would assume in the chest as specified in the text of the first verse), this leads to developed inner power/de/perfect virtue. The dictionary defines developed as advanced or elaborated to a specified degree, thus this leads to inner power that has been advanced or elaborated to some extent. 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 14, 2019 by Bindi

[Limahong]

5 minutes ago, vonkrankenhaus said:

"Essence"

 

Hi vonkrankenhaus,

 

I would like to believe that my "Essence" ~ Jing, Qi , Shen, Faith, Morality, Health, Family, Friends... ~ is in order as ONE.

 

If not, will I be a lame (if not dead) duck?

 

- Anand

[dawei]

2 hours ago, vonkrankenhaus said:

 

Jing is "Essence", yes.

 

Essence is polarities and potentials, inherited and acquired.

 

This is the basis of Qi.

 

Qi is just movement between the poles of polarities.

 

"Essence" in the human is polarities and potentials, inherited and acquired.

 

Polarities and potentials of Heaven and Earth contain the Human, so are beyond full Human comprehension.

 

But inside the Human are functioning the same kind of polarities and potentials.

 

This is the way people know Heaven and Earth ("Sages").

 

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

 

yes, thank you... that is part of what seems important to mention. 

[dawei]

2 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

"According to the earliest comprehensive dictionary of Chinese characters (ca. 100 CE), Xu Shen’s Shuowen jiezi (Explaining Single-component Graphs and Analyzing Compound Characters), yin refers to “a closed door, darkness and the south bank of a river and the north side of a mountain.” Yang refers to “height, brightness and the south side of a mountain.” 

 

I find this interesting given that the first two verses refer to 'bright' and 'dark.' Further associating Heaven with yang and its opposite 'abyss' with yin is also valid IMO. I cannot help but wonder if these are early precursors to the more refined yin/yang notion of later times.  

 

I think that may be a good catch as there are lots of archtypes Yin/Yang associations and this text (I believe) never says Yin/Yang.  In any case, it is a good pointer to duality concepts like LZ2.

 

2 hours ago, Bindi said:

'而 可 迎 以 意 ...can be made welcome by using your intent' can help clarify the question in the first verse about whether vital essence arrives on its own or if intention is used. We can use the inner power we do have to calm the jing (which is now referred to as qi?) that exists in everyone and everything, and then use intention to establish the conditions in which jing will come to 'rest'. These conditions are referred to later, so I won't refer to them here. 

 

When this qi is maintained/held onto/nurtured/guarded and never lost or let go of (I would assume in the chest as specified in the text of the first verse), this leads to developed inner power/de/perfect virtue. The dictionary defines developed as advanced or elaborated to a specified degree, thus this leads to inner power that has been advanced or elaborated to some extent. 

 

Intent was also translated as awareness in the above authors... so various interpretations may emerge.  

 

As TT mentioned, only Linnell seems to translate the first line in complete (which I'm losing interest in his translation), but the rest may not be representing things (even Linnell).  I think 'thus' and 'therefore' are not transformation but just pointers.   

 

They have not mentioned Qi in the chest yet.   But seems a text change to talk about Qi.

 

Yi (intent) has many meanings:  idea / meaning / thought / to think / wish / desire / intention / to expect / to anticipate

 

It seems clearly in thought level.

 

One observation, using Linnell with chinese... is after a 4-2-4-2-4-2-4-2-4 pattern, is a set of 5 character patterns:

 

是 故 此 氣 也 Thus this Qi –
不 可 止 以 力 Can not be brought to rest by using force,
而 可 安 以 德 But can be calmed by using De.
不 可 呼 以 聲 Can not be summoned by using your voice,
而 可 迎 以 意 But can be made welcome by using your intent.

 

the "thus.. Qi" is repeated to continue the thought of how Qi is viewed using more dualistic ideas.

 

Force vs De

Voice vs Yi

 

Should we equate a forceful voice vs a De of Yi ?

[Taoist Texts]

On 5/13/2019 at 7:45 AM, vonkrankenhaus said:

Text isn't a cultivation techniques manual to begin with.

 

It is something else.

But everybody wants it to be that so much!

 

You are right its a governance manual.

[Bindi]

23 minutes ago, dawei said:

 

I think that may be a good catch as there are lots of archtypes Yin/Yang associations and this text (I believe) never says Yin/Yang.  In any case, it is a good pointer to duality concepts like LZ2.

 

 

Intent was also translated as awareness in the above authors... so various interpretations may emerge.  

 

As TT mentioned, only Linnell seems to translate the first line in complete (which I'm losing interest in his translation), but the rest may not be representing things (even Linnell).  I think 'thus' and 'therefore' are not transformation but just pointers.   

 

They have not mentioned Qi in the chest yet.   But seems a text change to talk about Qi.

 

Yi (intent) has many meanings:  idea / meaning / thought / to think / wish / desire / intention / to expect / to anticipate

 

It seems clearly in thought level.

 

One observation, using Linnell with chinese... is after a 4-2-4-2-4-2-4-2-4 pattern, is a set of 5 character patterns:

 

是 故 此 氣 也 Thus this Qi –
不 可 止 以 力 Can not be brought to rest by using force,
而 可 安 以 德 But can be calmed by using De.
不 可 呼 以 聲 Can not be summoned by using your voice,
而 可 迎 以 意 But can be made welcome by using your intent.

 

the "thus.. Qi" is repeated to continue the thought of how Qi is viewed using more dualistic ideas.

 

Force vs De

Voice vs Yi

 

Should we equate a forceful voice vs a De of Yi ?

 

Not outer force but inner force, not outer voice but inner voice?

[dawei]

4 minutes ago, Bindi said:

 

Not outer force but inner force, not outer voice but inner voice?

 

Ok, I think I follow the idea:

 

[Not outer] Force vs [inner] De

Not outer] Voice vs [inner] Yi

 

In this case, the inner De and inner Yi are not senses and thus not 'human qualities', yes ?  but yet are there.    I think that is something to think about as we go forward through the sections.   As inner vs outer is already a part of the dualistic picture but how do they resolve in the text as separate or joined, we'll see.    

[OldDog]

42 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

You are right its a governance manual.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by governance manual. You mean as opposed to a cultivation manual?

 

What would you consider as the objectives of governance vs cultivation?

 

I think what I am hearing here as cultivation is in reference to practices that developed much later. Am I misunderstanding this?

[Taoist Texts]

19 minutes ago, OldDog said:

 

I'm not sure what you mean by governance manual. You mean as opposed to a cultivation manual?

 

What would you consider as the objectives of governance vs cultivation?

The objective of governance is seizing and holding the power in a state.

The objective of cultivation is becoming a better person.

 

19 minutes ago, OldDog said:

 

I think what I am hearing here as cultivation is in reference to practices that developed much later. Am I misunderstanding this?

No, you do not, because we really do not know when these practices have been created.

 

As to Section 1, there are 2 ways to read it.

The 1st one is what all translators do: "there is some kind of mystical jing/qi, I (a random person) will take it, keep it, become virtuous, wise, and understand everything". Which is a naive reading, mistaking a statecraft text for  a cultivation manual.

 

The 2nd one is : "there is some kind of mystical jing/qi, which is the energy of the people, I (the king) will attune myself to it, rule according to it, then the virtuous ones and the wise ones among the nation will become my officers, and everything will be in my power". This is a correct reading of a governance manual.

[Limahong]

43 minutes ago, OldDog said:

I'm not sure what you mean by governance manual. You mean as opposed to a cultivation manual?

What would you consider as the objectives of governance vs cultivation?

 

Hi OldDog,

 

Be it governance or cultivation, it appears that a manual is suggested.

 

If that is so, is it an instructional/operational manual (X) - e.g. from A =>... as in a process?

 

Is X a manual for all practitioners, true seekers... even for one on a road less traveled?

 

If not, what is the content(s) of the suggested manual?

 

- Anand

[Apech]

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

The objective of governance is seizing and holding the power in a state.

The objective of cultivation is becoming a better person.

 

No, you do not, because we really do not know when these practices have been created.

 

As to Section 1, there are 2 ways to read it.

The 1st one is what all translators do: "there is some kind of mystical jing/qi, I (a random person) will take it, keep it, become virtuous, wise, and understand everything". Which is a naive reading, mistaking a statecraft text for  a cultivation manual.

 

The 2nd one is : "there is some kind of mystical jing/qi, which is the energy of the people, I (the king) will attune myself to it, rule according to it, then the virtuous ones and the wise ones among the nation will become my officers, and everything will be in my power". This is a correct reading of a governance manual.

 

You have to bear in mind also the universal (as far as I know) link between 'kingship' and spiritual development.  It doesn't have to be one or the other it can be both/and.

[Limahong]

1 hour ago, Apech said:

You have to bear in mind also the universal (as far as I know) link between 'kingship' and spiritual development.  It doesn't have to be one or the other it can be both/and.

 

Hi Apech,

 

I am for "both/and" and I am coming from the direction of a relationship ~ my Guru-ji and me.

 

I recently had a face-off with Guru-ji when he visited Singapore ~ on major different philosophical stances. 

 

I refused to talk to him for a few days ~ but I still made for him his favorite vegetarian curry puffs.

 

On the eve of his departure for home in India, Guru-ji invited me to his last local ceremony. When we met the immediate past was totally forgotten.

 

My parting shot to Guru-ji ~ "I will be a good boy" and I gave him 30 frozen puffs to bring home.

 

I love Guru-ji ~ but he loves me more...

 

 

 

A relationship that is truly based on trust is worth more than its weight ~ beyond gold.

 

- Anand

 

Edited May 14, 2019 by Limahong
Enhance ...

[dawei]

 

4 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

The objective of governance is seizing and holding the power in a state.

The objective of cultivation is becoming a better person.

 

No, you do not, because we really do not know when these practices have been created.

 

As to Section 1, there are 2 ways to read it.

The 1st one is what all translators do: "there is some kind of mystical jing/qi, I (a random person) will take it, keep it, become virtuous, wise, and understand everything". Which is a naive reading, mistaking a statecraft text for  a cultivation manual.

 

The 2nd one is : "there is some kind of mystical jing/qi, which is the energy of the people, I (the king) will attune myself to it, rule according to it, then the virtuous ones and the wise ones among the nation will become my officers, and everything will be in my power". This is a correct reading of a governance manual.

 

3 hours ago, Apech said:

 

You have to bear in mind also the universal (as far as I know) link between 'kingship' and spiritual development.  It doesn't have to be one or the other it can be both/and.

Guanzi, or Guan Zhong (管仲) is generally considered a legalist but the core 'cultivation' texts as daoist.  This is at a time when no allegiances were formed nor such labels existed.  So it is not uncommon to find such diversity among works.  Taken as a whole, the work has been called the  'earliest masterpiece on political economy'; taken in some parts, as containing the earliest cultivation technique.

 

Elsewhere I gave a link to a paper on “Tong guo shen” 通 國身 TGS (“Linking the State and the Body”) where it states:

Spoiler

One who regulates a body/self (shen)16 considers the accumulation of the vital elements (jing)
to be his treasure.
One who regulates a state considers the accumulation of the worthy to be his way.
The body/self takes the mind/heart (xin) as its root. The state takes the ruler as its master.
If the vital elements are accumulated in their root, then the blood and qi mutually support and
serve each other.
If the worthy are accumulated around their master, then superiors and inferiors mutually control
and employ each other.
If the blood and qi mutually support each other, then the body (xing ti)17 does not contain that
from which it suffers.18
If superiors and inferiors mutually employ each other, then the hundred offices19 all obtain their
[proper] place.
Only when the body (xing ti) does not contain that from which it suffers can the body/self (shen)
be at ease (an).20
Only when the hundred offices each attain their place can the state be protected.
Now, those who desire to bring their vital essence to its utmost must empty [their minds/hearts]
and still (jing) their bodies (xing).
Those who desire to bring the number of the worthy to its utmost (zhi) must humble themselves21
and be modest.
Where the body is still and the mind/heart (zhi)22 empty, jing qi23 (qi jing) delights.
Where there are the modest, respectful and humble, the humane and the worthy serve.24
Those who regulate the body must remain empty and still in order to bring their vital essence
(jing) to its utmost, those who regulate the state must try their best to humble themselves and be
modest in order to bring the number of the worthy to its utmost.
If [those who regulate the body] can bring their vital essence to its utmost, then they can be of
united clear-sightedness and attain longevity.
If the humane can bring the number of the worthy to its utmost25 then their inner power (de)
penetrates into and imbues everything, and the state is in great peace.”26

 

This seems but an expansion of Guanzi's other cultivation section, Xin Shu, a summary of Neiye on some level:

心安, 是國安也。心治, 是國治也.

“His mind being at peace, his country is also at peace. His mind being well regulated, his country is also well regulated.”

 

Also of note in the Xin Shu:  心之在體，君之位也.

In the body, the [heart]mind holds the position of the prince.

 

This might help understand why medical daoist theory says the heart is the [army] general; or as Xunzi said, “master of the five sense organs”. 

 

In some ancient texts that follow the Guanzi formula, Xunzi also talks that we store memories... which means emptying the storage is emptiness.  Thus, to 'accumulate' jing one engages in emptiness (not seeking to accumulate jing as a focus).   The TGS calls it JingQi, thus no differentiation between Jing and Qi.   In others, Jing is settled in order to have the Qi and blood in harmony so that body/self is at ease/rest/calm.   For this reason, rest (an 安) was considered Jing (tranquility) 安：靜也 in the ancient dictionary and may be a pointer to wu-wei concept.

 

What might be pondered:

1. Self-regulation = State-regulation

2. Jing is the essential aspect for Qi and blood to be in harmony.  There is no more transformational thought of Jing to Qi than there is of Jing to Blood.  Jing seems to stand on its own, yet almost synonymous with Qi. 

3. Is Jing (精), vital essence, the key to Jing (靜), tranquility ,  wu-wei ?

4. Jing is not to be grasped or sought, thus one cannot 'store' it or try to do so as that would go against its own nature.  Being non-active, non-purposeful, non-attentive state, Jing becomes aware as just Qi: JingQi

 

Of course I pulled in other texts to understand and suggest some things as looking at it in isolation is not always going to show the history or understanding, but I also don't want to impose too much outside thought to the text itself.   So I let these ideas sit.

[Taoist Texts]

4 hours ago, Apech said:

You have to bear in mind also the universal (as far as I know) link between 'kingship' and spiritual development. 

That might be the case but spiritual development is not the same as "cultivation" which is a qigong-like practice.

4 hours ago, Apech said:

 

It doesn't have to be one or the other it can be both/and.

Yes, may be. But my point was to correct a mistranslation by translators who are not familiar with the vocabulary and the historical context.

[Taoist Texts]

54 minutes ago, dawei said:

心安, 是國安也。心治, 是國治也.

“His mind being at peace, his country is also at peace. His mind being well regulated, his country is also well regulated.”

the issue is how the heart is regulated. With qigong or with commonplace morality, such as reducing desires? If the latter then its not 'cultivation'.

[Apech]

2 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

That might be the case but spiritual development is not the same as "cultivation" which is a qigong-like practice.

Yes, may be. But my point was to correct a mistranslation by translators who are not familiar with the vocabulary and the historical context.

 

 

that's a bit limiting on the term 'cultivation' - which is used also in sanskrit 'bhavana'.

[Taoist Texts]

1 minute ago, Apech said:

 

 

that's a bit limiting on the term 'cultivation' - which is used also in sanskrit 'bhavana'.

of course. far it be from me to hog a term. lets just make sure what we are talking about

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhavana

[Apech]

10 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

"According to the earliest comprehensive dictionary of Chinese characters (ca. 100 CE), Xu Shen’s Shuowen jiezi (Explaining Single-component Graphs and Analyzing Compound Characters), yin refers to “a closed door, darkness and the south bank of a river and the north side of a mountain.” Yang refers to “height, brightness and the south side of a mountain.” 

 

I find this interesting given that the first two verses refer to 'bright' and 'dark.' Further associating Heaven with yang and its opposite 'abyss' with yin is also valid IMO. I cannot help but wonder if these are early precursors to the more refined yin/yang notion of later times.  

 

'而 可 迎 以 意 ...can be made welcome by using your intent' can help clarify the question in the first verse about whether vital essence arrives on its own or if intention is used. We can use the inner power we do have to calm the jing (which is now referred to as qi?) that exists in everyone and everything, and then use intention to establish the conditions in which jing will come to 'rest'. These conditions are referred to later, so I won't refer to them here. 

 

When this qi is maintained/held onto/nurtured/guarded and never lost or let go of (I would assume in the chest as specified in the text of the first verse), this leads to developed inner power/de/perfect virtue. The dictionary defines developed as advanced or elaborated to a specified degree, thus this leads to inner power that has been advanced or elaborated to some extent. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think Yin/yang is older than this text - the Yijing dated to around 1046 BC.