Contradiction ?

[Limahong]

On 6/12/2019 at 9:58 AM, Starjumper said:

Tao doesn't give a shit about anything, it can't, it ain't got no steenkin' feelings, no brain, no hopes, nothing.  Poor misunderstood Tao, it's only a set of operating instructions ... for the universe.  No fucks given, none taken, all ok.

 

Good morning Steve,

 

I just got up and I was very upbeat ~ tapping my toes to this...

"太阳出来罗嘞喜洋洋 <=> Happiness ~ the sun is coming out"... especially when I had many dreams to realize.

 

 

Now that I have read your message, I am going back to sleep.

 

"No fucks given, none taken, all ok" ~ WTF?

 

Good night - the sun has gone down.

 

- Anand

 

Edited June 14, 2019 by Limahong
Enhance ...

[Starjumper]

12 hours ago, Limahong said:

 

Good morning Steve,

 

I just got up and I was very upbeat ~ tapping my toes to this...

"太阳出来罗嘞喜洋洋 <=> Happiness ~ the sun is coming out"... especially when I had many dreams to realize.

 

Now that I have read your message, I am going back to sleep.

 

"No fucks given, none taken, all ok" ~ WTF?

 

Good night - the sun has gone down.

 

Good morning Anand, the phrases in question are an interpretation of doesn't give a shit.  Where I come from a lot of people prefer to say 'doesn't give a fuck' rather than 'doesn't give a shit'.  You know, people use swear words that are most important to them, and it's better to be a fucker rather than to be anal.  So real men say:  "The Tao doesn't give a fuck."

 

Proceeding on with our slang lesson. There's a forum in my town here dedicated to rants, there's one on this forum too.

 

So someone puts out some rants about no one giving a fuck about some thing that someone else doesn't like.  So the official response is: "No fucks were given!"

 

That, my friend, answers your WTF?  "No fucks given, none taken, all ok".  With Tao it's different though, it doesn't give a fuck, but some feel fucked anyway.

 

[Limahong]

3 hours ago, Starjumper said:

With Tao it's different though, it doesn't give a fuck, but some feel fucked anyway.

 

OMG

 

3 hours ago, Starjumper said:

You know, people use swear words that are most important to them, and it's better to be a fucker rather than to be anal.  So real men say:  "The Tao doesn't give a fuck."

 

My goodness.

 

Hi Steve,

 

What will real women say?

 

- Anand

 

Edited June 14, 2019 by Limahong
Enhance ...

[moment]

Is it possible to have concepts and be in Tao?

Edited June 14, 2019 by moment

[dawei]

31 minutes ago, moment said:

Is it possible to have concepts and be in Tao?

 

Tao is a concept... does that count as answer ?  

[Rocky Lionmouth]

40 minutes ago, moment said:

Is it possible to have concepts and be in Tao?

 

Is it possible not to be in the Dao?

[dawei]

9 minutes ago, Rocky Lionmouth said:

 

Is it possible not to be in the Dao?

 

Now, that is an open gate to walk into the contradicting ideas about Dao

 

ZZ said Dao is everywhere, even in Shit... and yet, LZ (and others) talk of 'losing Dao'.   I would take the position that both have meaning

 

[Fa Xin]

27 minutes ago, dawei said:

 

Now, that is an open gate to walk into the contradicting ideas about Dao

 

ZZ said Dao is everywhere, even in Shit... and yet, LZ (and others) talk of 'losing Dao'.   I would take the position that both have meaning

 

 

Maybe an illusion of being separate?

[dawei]

20 minutes ago, Fa Xin said:

 

Maybe an illusion of being separate?

 

I think that is part of it... and why I raised (but nobody bit) on what is Oneness.  

 

Oneness can be a unification concept (connected to everything), but then why does LZ say, we can 'lose Dao' ? 

 

[Fa Xin]

27 minutes ago, dawei said:

 

I think that is part of it... and why I raised (but nobody bit) on what is Oneness.  

 

Oneness can be a unification concept (connected to everything), but then why does LZ say, we can 'lose Dao' ? 

 

 

It is a good question.

 

Maybe Lao Tzu was speaking from the point of view of a personal standpoint.

 

So everything is One (as the TTC points out), that is the truth of the matter, from an objective standpoint - you cannot be apart from it.

 

However, when your caught up in fears, and looking at things from a place of duality... swimming against the current

.... it sure feels like you "Lose Dao". 

 

This would be an "illusion of being separate"

 

That's my take on it, at least.

Edited June 14, 2019 by Fa Xin

[dawei]

2 minutes ago, Fa Xin said:

 

It is a good question.

 

Maybe Lao Tzu was speaking from the point of view of a personal standpoint.

 

So everything is One (as the TTC points out), that is the truth of the matter, from an objective standpoint - you cannot be apart from it.

 

However, when your caught up in fears, and looking at things from a place of duality... swimming against the current

.... it sure feels like you "Lose Dao". 

 

This would be an "illusion of being separate"

 

That's my take on it, at least.

 

I agree from the understanding of Oneness vs duality.   

 

[Limahong]

2 hours ago, moment said:

Is it possible to have concepts and be in Tao?

 

1 hour ago, dawei said:

Tao is a concept... does that count as answer ?

 

Hi moment and dawei,

 

Your concept(s) ~ your Tao ... my concept(s) ~ my Tao?

 

Is it possible to feel the Tao without concept(s)?

 

Do we need concept(s) to fell in love?

 

1 hour ago, Rocky Lionmouth said:

Is it possible not to be in the Dao?

 

Hi Rocky Lionmouth,

 

Is it possible not to be in love when...?

 

 

 

Maybe it is "possible not to be in the Dao".

 

- Anand

 

[moment]

That was fun! I think most of of us have felt this before: Time seems to slow down, your sense perceptions are heightened – colors are sharper and brighter and each sound seems to ripple right through you.

Your mind shifts into a better place. A sense of vibrant aliveness and peace infuse your being. You feel in tune with life, moving with a precision and poise you don’t fully understand but, at the same time would gladly live in forever. You’re in the zone. You’re in flow.  Is this being in harmony with Tao? Does conceptualizing,  get in the way of attaining that harmony longer term and if so, what is to be done about that?

 

Edited June 14, 2019 by moment

[Starjumper]

5 hours ago, dawei said:

ZZ said Dao is everywhere, even in Shit... and yet, LZ (and others) talk of 'losing Dao'.   I would take the position that both have meaning

 

4 hours ago, Fa Xin said:

Maybe an illusion of being separate?

 

Two different things.

 

Tao means Way, the way the universe works, you can't get away from that.

 

Tao also means path, as in 'way of cultivation', and people get really far away from that.

[Starjumper]

2 hours ago, moment said:

That was fun! I think most of of us have felt this before: Time seems to slow down, your sense perceptions are heightened – colors are sharper and brighter and each sound seems to ripple right through you.

Your mind shifts into a better place. A sense of vibrant aliveness and peace infuse your being. You feel in tune with life, moving with a precision and poise you don’t fully understand but, at the same time would gladly live in forever. You’re in the zone. You’re in flow.  Is this being in harmony with Tao?

 

Sounds like you just smoked a joint, the miracle youth medicine from China.

 

2 hours ago, moment said:

Does conceptualizing,  get in the way of attaining that harmony longer term and if so, what is to be done about that?

 

Roll another one.

[dawei]

32 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

 

 

Two different things.

 

Tao means Way, the way the universe works, you can't get away from that.

 

Tao also means path, as in 'way of cultivation', and people get really far away from that.

 

two different concepts of dao

 

 

[Desmonddf]

If the Dao is everything, then it IS care, and it ALSO IS not caring. There is no Yin and Yang. There is no care and abbandonment. It is transcendent - both caring and uncaring.

 

It isn't logical and it isn't supposed to make sense. Making sense is something limited - a product of the mind and its illusion of being able to reduce Reality to Knowledge (see that you're assuming that, if something IS, then it can be known - that the Mind is bigger than Reality).

[dawei]

9 minutes ago, Desmonddf said:

If the Dao is everything, then it IS care, and it ALSO IS not caring. There is no Yin and Yang. There is no care and abbandonment. It is transcendent - both caring and uncaring.

 

It isn't logical and it isn't supposed to make sense. Making sense is something limited - a product of the mind and its illusion of being able to reduce Reality to Knowledge (see that you're assuming that, if something IS, then it can be known - that the Mind is bigger than Reality).

 

Till one gets past the concepts. Deities seems to not use concepts but direct connection.   As does the myriad things in the universe.

[silent thunder]

in trying to share what is experiential

it seems mind must intellectualize it

aaaaand it's gone.

 

when intellectualized...

what was being conveyed... no longer present

cannot be conveyed

words will never suffice it seems

 

the word water will not slake thirst

though mind knows that word represents... an aspect of reality.

and yet the thought is wholly unreal?

 

mind is mind

mind directs finger

finger points to moon

finger directs mind

moon is moon

 

who points at whom?

 

 

[moment]

3 hours ago, Starjumper said:

 

Sounds like you just smoked a joint, the miracle youth medicine from China.

 

 

Roll another one.

I don't smoke pot or drink.  You may have missed the point of my questions.  Dawei is partially right in his answer about two different concepts.

I am trying to get considerations going here about how concepts ( after a certain point inevitably hinder growth in Tao).  I know that you know this from a certain perspective.  You started your martial arts with concepts yet at a certain point it became an intuitive art.  Good Jazz is another example.  Concepts must give way if your are to get to a higher level.  You experienced several Masters that showed this ability more than most,  and I suspect that in many ways you experience the non-conceptual far more than average. One can not get beyond a certain level without it.  Spontaneous improvisation in a high art form, for a lack of a better way to explain.

I have experienced it in movement meditation such as Tai chi, I have experienced it in Kriya Yoga and I have experienced it in high stress combat situations where there was no conscious thought.  I see these as windows.  How about you Mr. Smith?

Edited June 15, 2019 by moment

[Limahong]

1 hour ago, silent thunder said:

who points at whom?

 

Hi Creighton,

 

I did/will not point at you... and trust that you will be pointless about me.

 

What is the point? We cannot be pointed as nothing is permanent...

... we are always moving/changing/transforming re... jing <=> qi <=> shen?

 

Point and point are different.

 

- Anand

 

[Limahong]

9 minutes ago, moment said:

You may have missed the point of my questions.

 

Hi moment,

 

Another point? If it is missed... was there a point?

 

If you miss "the point of my questions", please do not point back at me as I have moved/changed/transformed...

 

Thank you for not...

 

 

                              Anand

 

[moment]

27 minutes ago, Limahong said:

 

Hi moment,

 

Another point? If it is missed... was there a point?

 

If you miss "the point of my questions", please do not point back at me as I have moved/changed/transformed...

 

Thank you for not...

 

 

                              Anand

 

Is my thumb up a point?

[Rocky Lionmouth]

3 hours ago, moment said:

Is my thumb up a point?

 

You guys have thumbs?!?!

[Starjumper]

19 hours ago, Limahong said:

Hi Steve,

 

What will real women say?

 

- Anand

 

Hi Anand,

 

I don't want to try to guess what a woman will say, those guesses are always wrong.

 

But I know what a women's libber would say  ,  "Tao doesn't give a shit about men, but she loves meee."

 

Steve