safety of mantak chia's practices

[Trunk]

[Chanwu]

It's just evil rumours by the cult "traditional tao", as I originally stated... statistically speaking - how many get hurt and how many don't, and how many would get hurt even without the practise?

 

Plus Seandenty is biased, or rather brainwashed, so his word can't be trusted. He never suffered from any kidney problems - he was only told that by one of David's teachers... and he took his word for it. He didn't go for a medical opinion, just one from someone who charge people 12000 dollars for killing bulls and "empower" people. An opinion from a man like that is nothing to be trusted, it's based on how he can suck out more money from people.

 

It's such a farce....

Edited February 21, 2008 by Chanwu

[Trunk]

statistically speaking - how many get hurt and how many don't, and how many would get hurt even without the practise?

Enough people get hurt that it's been very noticable in the cyber-community. Problems typical to this sort of mis-practice.

 

Plus Seandenty.. He never suffered from any kidney problems - he was only told that by one of David's teachers... and he took his word for it.

Wow. You didn't even read the bolded part of the quote.

[Chanwu]

Enough people get hurt that it's been very noticable in the cyber-community. Problems typical to this sort of mis-practice.

 

Wow. You didn't even read the bolded part of the quote.

 

 

When you make videos with faked pyrokinesis, what makes you think other things aren't fake about this cult?

[Trunk]

..what makes you think other things aren't fake about this cult?

Well, specifically regarding the view that "semen retention has its' dangers", I think it's genuine because I've observed similar patterns of disharmony in myself, and in other community members, over about a decade - totally independent of Denty, Verdesi, etc. (didn't know them). Plus about 25 yrs experience on a broad and eclectic path. Plus the difficulties align with Chinese medical theory.

 

p.s.

If you want the chemistry theory, you'd have to go to Dr. Lin's site.

[Starjumper]

I see this Chanwu is like Buddy only worse, I guess there's a never ending parade of people like that here. I met Mantak Chia and went to some of his seminars and I think he was a nice person. He told me I should learn some tai chi before coming to instructor training of his and that is how I met my masters. They require years of learning, rather han one or two weeks, before allowing one to teach.

 

It's true Chia teaches some standing and moving, but the some of the classes put on by his teachers, which I helped to promote, were all about the sitting and visualizing. The person i met who was damaged had been to one of these. She was very overweight, unhealthy, and totally sedentary. She should NEVER have done even more sitting.

 

Even more importantly is that they combined these visualizations with extensive martial arts and moving chi kung training, which took priority, it's safe for people like that.

 

Note keywords: which took priority

Edited February 21, 2008 by Starjumper7

[VCraigP]

Well, specifically regarding the view that "semen retention has its' dangers", I think it's genuine because I've observed similar patterns of disharmony in myself, and in other community members, over about a decade - totally independent of Denty, Verdesi, etc. (didn't know them). Plus about 25 yrs experience on a broad and eclectic path. Plus the difficulties align with Chinese medical theory.

 

p.s.

If you want the chemistry theory, you'd have to go to Dr. Lin's site.

 

Healing Tao practices.

 

Safe yes. Unsafe yes.

 

IN my view the safe practices are the meditative practices, Inner smile meditation, six healing sounds, microcosmic orbit. Fusion of the 5 elements. IF you have MASTERED the above you might want to try sexual gong fu practice. M.Winn has modified rather significantly the way he teaches both Iron Shirt chikung and Sexual kungfu in order to make them more safe and perhaps more effective.

 

We usually get sidetracked into discussing Sexual gong fu here, especially as it applies to men and their particular issues. I would like to go on a tangent and discuss Iron Shirt chikung as initially presented by M.Chia. This practice as initially presented involved "packing process breathing". I believe it has been widely understood by the Healing Tao community, especially those more closely linked with M.Winn (myself included) that the method as presented in the first Iron shirt book is risky at best. M.Winn goes so far as to indicate that he thinks packing process breathing is not particularly Taoist as it involves force and not relaxation. The most often attacked teachings of M.Chia are the sexual practices and the Iron shirt practices. I believe both of these to be sidetracks from the Internal Alchemy track. I believe that Iron shirt practice was not part of the Alchemy lineage which M.Chia received. I have discussed in detail with certain individuals who are involved and have been involved with lineage Iron Body training and they view M.Chia's material with alarm.

 

So if the question is "are Mantak Chia's practices safe" I would have to say Yes and NO.

 

I do believe that I received tremendous value in exploring my inner world through the use of the Inner Smile Meditation, Six Healing Sounds, Microcosmic Orbit and Fusion of the five elements meditations.

 

I would urge a new student or even an intermediate student to MASTER the Inner Smile Meditation, Six Healing Sounds, Microcosmic Orbit and Fusion of the five elements meditations before even contemplating sexual gongfu or iron shirt gongfu. I would urge the student to find some form of physical exercise to do regularly in order to build a strong physical foundation, ideally Internal Martial Arts.

 

One of the biggest problems with M.Chia and M.Winns students is a lack of good physical training. (Yes this is a gross generalization, and as such there are outstanding exceptions, but most of these exceptions have training in traditional martial arts or similar activities.) I never learned good structure studying with M.Chia in large part because seminar instruction doesn't allow for sufficient feedback and adjustment.

 

There will always be conflicting opinions about what is appropriate for any stage of training. Some schools NEVER use Chi leading visualization. Some schools NEVER use sexual gongfu at all. Some schools maintain Healing Tao techniques are a "Fire" path while true Taoist practice are fully a "water" path.

 

I am GRATEFUL to have studied with M.Chia and M.Winn to the extent that I have. I am grateful to continue to integrate Taoist practice into my life which has led me to other teachers. I don't think it is correct to say that studying Healing Tao practice WILL necessarily cause damage as Sean D. may seem to infer. The practices as I have outlined them were excellent for me and I believe laid a foundation which enables me to better judge what I am receiving from any instructor or system.

 

Also, since I am now reading EVA WONG's Shambala guide to Taoism I must point out that she asserts that it is traditionally understood that the path of Alchemy IS inherently difficult and potentially dangerous. Maybe I can link this to my last post on another topic. Dangerous is perhaps a good thing. When you are rock climbing on a wall 1000 feet in the air you become extremely FOCUSED on what you are doing, taking the necessary moves one at a time using all your senses cohesively. Perhaps this is the proper attitude for cultivation as well??

 

Enough from me.

 

Peace

 

Craig

Edited February 21, 2008 by VCraigP

[DentyDao]

The information from Craig and Kieth is pretty much right on. Any sexual practice or practice that involves manipulation the of qi is potentially harmful without the guidence of a qualified master. There are good practices in the Healing Tao that lead to better health and emotional balance.

 

I'm actually still teaching the HT Tai Chi and will be renewing my instructor certification this year.

 

Any spiritual practice done with devotion can lead to realization eventually. My critcism of the HT was primarily related to the safety concerns of some of the methods and the early claims of Chia which are now not really emphasized, although they are still there in print in the HT publications. In the instructor community, these things are old news. Chia has even expressed an interest in David's work recently; despite all gossip to the contrary, they remain on good terms. The only real controversy is on this forum.

 

S

Edited February 21, 2008 by seandenty

[DentyDao]

PS- I lived and studied with the guy who wrote the Iron Shirt curriculum for the HT, Ron Diana. He was very, openly critical of the Iron Shirt practice and the Sexual methods and stopped practicing many of the more forceful elements over a decade before he died.

 

I also worked closely with Michael Winn for three years; he was open about the flaws in the sexual practices and, as Craig mentioned, changed them to reduce the negitive effects.

 

Ron, advised ejactulation once or twice a month and regular prostate massage. He also did not teach the sexual practices the way they are written because so many had problems. Late in his career, his focus shifted to the work of Dr. Stephan Chang who advocated a very gentle version of many of the sexual practices for health and enjoyment. Ron was all about the enjoyment

Edited February 21, 2008 by seandenty

[Taoist81]

As to whether Chia's particular techniques are dangerous, there seems to be evidence (as seen on Trunk's site, and in the experience of former practitioners here) that they at least can be. However, semen retention in and of itself is NOT dangerous. Taoists were not the only ones to practice retention, though they may be the most well known to have done so in conjunction with particular visualization practices. Oneida, Neo-Gnostics and various Tantriks have and do practice retention without any of the problems noted by those with Healing Tao etc. experience. If semen is not spent (whether or not it is "aroused") it will eventually breakdown into its components and disseminate through the body in other ways. Completely naturally. Will retention by itself give you immortality? No. But it can be used to enhance ones relationship.

Note however that psychological harm can arise from guilt or otherwise beating oneself up over it.

 

Note: this is not to say that certain ailments will never arise. There is the noted syndrome of "Jing Stasis" in TCM. This can be linked to a number of things and could possibly arise from retention alone. However, to treat it does not require "cumming".

Edited February 21, 2008 by Taoist81

[DentyDao]

As to whether Chia's particular techniques are dangerous, there seems to be evidence (as seen on Trunk's site, and in the experience of former practitioners here) that they at least can be. However, semen retention in and of itself is NOT dangerous.

 

If you are sexually active the way most westerners are and you are forcing yourself not to ejaculate, you are taking a risk. This is almost self evident, any urologist can explane it.

 

Simply not having sex is very healthy.

[DentyDao]

Sexual practice is a minor Dao and is one the many so called dark paths because of the tremendous potential for abuse; not that there is anything inherently bad in it. Suffice to say, if anyone publicly teaching this would have reached a high level, they would be able to reverse the stream of their urin midstream. At the lowest level, a practitioner should be able to 'drink' a class of specially refined mercury with their penis (about 14 times heavier than water; this is refined mercury that has no toxic effects) in about one second and hold it in their bladder for an hour or more to seal the lower gates. The rest is just to improve lovemaking.

Edited February 21, 2008 by seandenty

[Pietro]

Simply not having sex is very healthy.

 

Simply not having sex raises the probability of prostate cancer in men. The testosterone is transformed into DHT in the prostate and in most men, especially those with a sedentary lifestyle (i.e. most of us) it does not leave the prostate. This with time hardens and enlargens the prostate, and in time rises the probability of having prostatic problems. Ejacualting, from this point of view is beneficial because it gives some good squeezes to the prostate.

 

Shit guys, we've been through all this how many times?

 

Pietro

[Gerard]

Mantak Chia follows the fire path. If you are like me, a fire horse, stay away from it.

 

For me water methods and Buddhist Vipassana allow me to play within the safety zone.

[Taoist81]

If you are sexually active the way most westerners are and you are forcing yourself not to ejaculate, you are taking a risk. This is almost self evident, any urologist can explane it.

 

Simply not having sex is very healthy.

 

Only if you are using something like the finger-lock which can cause structural damage. Any urologist can explain to you that "blue balls" and other supposed syndromes associated with "not cumming" are throw backs from the 19th century when they didn't have the understanding of the reproductive system that we have now. There is no scientific reason that retention alone would be damaging. At most a urologist would just think you were silly for doing it. On the other hand there is scientific research that ejaculating is beneficial, however the studies did not include a research gourp of individuals that were sexually active while retaining, so it is possible that simply being sexually active with or without ejaculation is beneficial to the health. But, based on that study, you are quite wrong, simply not having sex resulted in higher rates of prostate cancer and other problems.

[DentyDao]

[DentyDao]

Edited February 22, 2008 by seandenty

[宁]

i really appreciate the nice exotic touch of the stories that are told here, but at least to me they remain mostly just stories.

the people more susceptible to belive them are those that have not yet developed sufficient root in their own practice.

dont get me wrong some of the details are really valuable, the setting is the problem... so you can basically pick up good things out of everything.

 

this is one of the reason i feel i am somewhat gratefull to David and SeanD. their insistance that what i take for good might be wrong, forced me to re-test, re-evaluate, re-consider, re-trace, many of the things i took for granted in the past, concerning my own practice and understanding of it.

guess what, every time i returned, more at peace, and more gratefull, to what i had, that is - Chia's system... it's my own experience, dont make much out of it.

 

so, yes, it would be unfair to deny that their influence can be beneficial, if you know how to take it.

i remember one discussion i had months ago on their forum, they asked me plain and simple, why do i stay there, if i am not utterly convinced of their story.

 

i told them that if you have your view, and you find another view on the same subject, if the circumstances are right, a third view may arise. that is what happens.

and of course i am in my turn curious of what they teach there in china and denmark for those lots of doll'

not because i am dissatisfied with what i know, but because this inherent curiosity may help develop a bigger picture in the end...

 

so, ready to serve, salt as needed

 

 

one more thing, you are making a confusion when you imply that everyone interested in the daoist practices have the same mindset: the american way. no. period.

 

L1

Edited February 22, 2008 by Little1

[Pietro]

Edited February 22, 2008 by Pietro

[Rosalia Juarez]

[voidisyinyang]

Hey Sean Denty! Wow -- what's the "little bag of tools" that these sex vampire prostitutes use? Umm... hopefully not an acupuncture needle the size of a sewing needle! Ouch!

 

I personally find it strange that Mantak Chia doesn't teach full-lotus. I know he says he's seen lots of knee problems but most of the Buddhist monks don't sit in full-lotus -- they sit just with the knees crossed and that doesn't open up the channels. I've read about these Thai monks needing surgery for example.

 

Anyway from my experience qigong master Chunyi Lin sits in full-lotus at least 4 hours a day and most of the qi transmission he does is through his third eye. His lifestyle is exactly like Master Wang Li Ping or whatever -- the Opening the Dragon Gate dude.

 

Also Michael Winn's essay on sex yoga -- mentioning his time under Sri Yuketswar (sp?) -- that was fascinating, stating how that full-lotus master needed young females to feed him jing energy.

 

My experience is that when I suck up yin energy while in full-lotus it is based on an energy exchange with my vagus nerve along the right side of the neck pulsating while yang energy shoots out from my pineal gland through my eyes into the females. This creates an "O at a D" with the female climaxing and I climax as well - my dick throbs, the ejaculate shoots up the back -- doesn't seem like any prostrate build up going on. haha. If any thing it's more of a sperm whale issue. haha.

 

So I'm not sure how a person would just suck up the yin energy without yang energy also leaving through their third eye. I know you're supposed to control the energy and store it in the lower tan tien but that is much easier if you have the eyes closed and your third eye focused back onto your own body, etc. Mudras and breathing techniques help but it seems more natural just to let the energy flow in my experience.

 

Thanks for sharing the exotic stories though.